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00:00 - 17:0017:00 - 00:00

17:01
That's fun fact.
@iwriteonbananas: Well, anything becomes a line bundle once you specify transition functions. You in addition need to show that the notion of homological orientation agrees with the notion of "section of that line bundle". In fact, since that's the hard part, I'm telling you to do too much work anyway. Can we start by putting a metric on M?
@MikeMiller Yeah, I was trying to figure out why "section of that bundle" coincides with orientation the way Hatcher defined it.
Ugh, I should have figured out I can make a line bundle that way.
Mike, am I being stupid here? math.stackexchange.com/questions/1581048/…
(Or anyone else, for that matter. Gotten in the habit of bothering Mike.)
You'll have to ask a representation theorist. Your symbols frighten me.
17:02
Haha, I apologize.
No need to apologize. I'm easily frightened.
So am I, however by geometry.
@iwriteonbananas: My hands are too cold to type much right now. The point, roughly, is that $H_n(M,M-p)$ is in bijection with orientation classes of orthonormal bases at a point.
Don't you live in Cali? Isn't it physically impossible for people there to feel cold?
17:07
Wouldn't that be great?
How could I see that choosing a global section of $\bigcup_p H_n(M,M-p)$ is the same as choosing a global section of $\Lambda^nT^* M$?
Ah
@MikeMiller You're talking about orientation classes of ONB's of $T_pM$ here?
The answer is just disjoint union...?
I mean, that's the most natural group operation.
Disjoint union, connected sum, whatever you want.
Yes, I know the conversation we just had.
17:12
But M # N and M # \bar N are unoriented cobordant.
Something mapping cylinder using the homeom N --> \bar N something...
The construction is similar to the way you shows that CP2 # CP2 bounds something non-orientable.
I believe it.
Ah.
In particular, find something that N sqcup N bounds (not N sqcup \bar N). Then take the "boundary sum" of this and M x [0,1]. If you care, I leave it to you to interpret this appropriately.
Just a remark: disjoint union and connected sum are not very different because M $\sqcup$ N is cobordant to M # N
17:16
Err, I think they're quite different.
Not very different operations in the context of the question, I meant.
Sure. If you picked an operation that gave you a different result it's "clearly" the wrong operation.
Fair enough.
@MikeMiller Oh, true. Take a nonorientable manifold and # with N x [0, 1], remove a tubular nbhd of a path from N x {0} to N x {1} going through the nonorientable summand. N $\sqcup$ N bounds this fellow. Connected sum with M x [0, 1], and it bounds M $\sqcup$ N and \bar M $\sqcup$ N.
Actually, isn't that enough? Now you just use that # is cobordant to $\sqcup$
Does anyone know when we're checking for existence and uniqueness are we supposed to only check whether that function and it's partial derivative w.r.t $y$ are continuous or do we also have to check whether they're both bounded?
So $M \# N$ and $\bar M \# N$ are cobordant too.
17:22
Sure. I was just giving a construction where you didn't need to pass to disjoint union first.
Yeah, I haven't really thought through boundary sum, but I think I know what it means.
What I said there is not quite accurate but meh.
@MikeMiller The resulting group is called the unoriented cobordism group of a point, right? Because you can replace every manifold $M$ by a map $M \to pt$.
Do you remember some examples of $\Omega_n$ for $n \leq 5$ off the top of yor head? :P
17:37
I don't think I've ever seen someone care about $\Omega_n(X)$ for any $X$ other than the point. They care about it in the abstract (It's a cohomology theory!) and in the specific of the point. But I've never seen it for other $X$.
Posted a bug report about pages on mobile web that MathJaX breaks.
No, I mean isomorphism types of $\Omega_n(pt)$.
Nevermind, found the message.
I do, but this is something you can wikipedia. There's not much value in me writing them down. :)
I am writing up an answer before the question closes.
What question? I'm confused.
17:40
As a note on our previous discussion: it's pretty hard to prove that connected sum is well-defined even ignore orientation problems
Who can say? There might be a hat for answer and question gets closed, answer score [something]
@MikeMiller indeed?
Hi! Can anyone help me with this limit $\lim_a \to \infty int_{0}^{\infty} \dfrac{1+x}{(a^2\ln^2 x +1)x^2} dx $
@BalarkaSen: You know as well as I do that that won't get you a helpful response.
Do I use dominated convergence theorem?
If so, how?
It's not clear to me why it shouldn't follow from the fact that # is cobordant to $\sqcup$, but I haven't thought about it clearly either :P
17:47
Can anyone help please?
So it's clear, but not clear why it's clear, so might as well be not clear.
I mean the literal operation ont he level of manifolds.
Oh.
Yeah, don't know how to do that one.
Wasn't there a theorem that $\Omega_n^{un}$ is as at least hard as computing the homotopy groups of spheres?
Ok, I am confused I guess.
17:54
@Huy when we're checking for existence and uniqueness are we supposed to only check whether that function and it's partial derivative w.r.t $y$ are continuous or do we also have to check whether they're both bounded?
@Samurai If I got your point, you have a positive quantity in denominator $$a^2\ln^2 x +1,$$ right? Well, from this point you're done (after making a little observation).
if I have two whole numbers x and y and x is chosen from one range and y from a non-overlapping range and I give you x+ y.. what can you tell me about x and y?
this simple question is confusing me
@Huy I'm here
Huy
Huy
18:09
@Paradox101: sorry, got people over soon, can't help you tonight
Aham, another trap due to the behaviour near $0$ ...
it's a trap!
18:46
That limit is posed as writing something like that
$$\lim_{a\to \infty} \int_0^{\infty} \frac{1}{a x} \ dx$$
Can anyone explain the left hand side of this question particularly the last two steps?
and note that the resulting $0$ can be views simply as $\frac{1}{\infty}$. In these conditions how do you relate more infinities arising from different ways and without estabilishing a relation between the producing sources?
@OFFSHARING im more focused on the primitive
all the hotch-potch variable substitution was a lead-nowhere
18:52
I think my point was understood.
@MikeMiller How is your answer relevant?
@MikeMiller what does that even mean
Law of excluded middle?
"P or not P is true" is the law of the excluded middle.
Ah...he's saying there is a third option?
Well, he's not saying much, since he didn't put any thought into his joke post. But yes, intuitionism doesnr demand that one of those is true.
18:55
Young, and still too old to get easily in anyone's trap. Nice try! I want something much harder.
As a consequence, you can't prove that not not P is equivalent to P.
@Balarka: It's a joke on the thing j just said. It doesn't really matter since the post will be deleted within the hour.
@MikeMiller Interesting...
@OFFSHARING the primitive !
@Agawa001 Do you want me to give you an awesome integral to try?
no the already-posted one
is nagging my mind
can u offer me a first-step
19:00
not talking to you even for unethical momentary reps
I think it could be turned into an interesting post (not this one - it's dead - but a modified version of it). What mathematics can be done in an internally consistent way if you reject the law of the excluded middle? Can you still develop calculus? algebraic geometry?
seems like a good question to get 5 links in it
I'd like to read the answers to such a post.
@Agawa001 Calculate
$$\int \frac{x^2(\log(x)-1)}{x^4-\log^4(x)} \ dx, \ x\in(1,\infty)$$
@Agawa001 it's important not to cheat.
im refering to this
19:04
@MikeMiller Algebraic gometry?
Why not pick something useful :P
@BalarkaSen try the one above (without cheating)
Don't care right now.
Sorry.
i think i found it
@MikeMiller What about "Who discovered Cayley graphs"?
iirc, it was not discovered by Cayley.
Let me research.
19:17
Well, turn that iirc into an I know.
Uh-oh. Wikipedia says it was discovered by Cayley. But Dehn reintroduced them later on.
Darn.
@Agawa001 AWESOME!!!
@MikeMiller how-did questions seem to be allowed in HSM
Maybe I should ask @Danu.
19:33
Hi @BalarkaSen
hello
Where the devil is Danu when needed.
@MikeMiller: "Who discovered the singular cup product?".
That is a good question only if you care and only if you can't, after a chunk of work, cannot find the answer. KCd might hate you no matter what you do anyway.
why is there hate going around
The intersection version was by Poincare. The general nonsense version was done by Eilenberg & Zilberg
or Alexander & Whitney
But who found the singular definition?
@MikeMiller Right. Good point on KCd.
I don't know what the general nonsense version is.
19:45
Induced from $H^l(X; R) \otimes H^k(X; R) \to H^{k+l}(X \times X; R) \to H^{k+l}(X; R)$, the second map being inclusion as a diagonal, the first cross product.
Note that cross product means the map induced from $C^k(X) \otimes C^l(X) \to C^{k+l}(X \times X)$, the E-Z map
Not the geometric thing in Hatcher
Otherwise it's circular.
Yes.
That's in Qiaochu's blog, if I interpret the broken latex correctly.
Did you know that one can prove $0=\sum_i (-1)^i {n\choose i}$ with a little homological algebra and the knowledge of the homology of the $n$-torus?
fixed the latex, sorry
almost ;)
$=0$
@iwriteonbananas Can you tell me who discovered the singular cup product?
@BalarkaSen what hat are you going for
19:50
He just didn't publish it.
@iwriteonbananas hehe
@iwriteonbananas: Proving that with Kunneth is exactly the same as the inductive combinatorial proof of the binomial theorem.
@0celo7 Up at 5'o Clock in the Morning.
@BalarkaSen is that a secret one?
what must one do to get it
19:51
Yep
Nobody knows.
@MikeMiller Ah, ok
We're guessing.
why are you looking for...whatever you're looking for then
@BalarkaSen Why are you wondering?
One doesn't need the Kunneth, though. Just some cross product diagrammatic machinery + dimension of exterior algebra module.
@iwriteonbananas Need to post a question in HSM
19:56
@BalarkaSen did Einstein have a hairy back?
what were some favorite curses of Lang?
[citation-needed]
@BalarkaSen I have a prof by that name. He likes gdi
@BalarkaSen Unpublished.
@0celo7 Lang's curses were much worse, afaik
20:01
@BalarkaSen gotta specify the Lang
Anyone here ever own a Tamagotchi?
Years and years ago.
Why?
...
Guys, from Engeling - "Every Tychonoff space X has a compactification (Y,c), such that weight(X) = weigh(Y)" - any ideas on the proof of this? I think I get it for the case of m=weight(X) $\geq $ $\mathbb{N}$ , as then I could embed X in I^m with some fuction f, and I would have weight(f(X)) = m, weight(I^m), so any dense set containing f(X) will have weight m. But I don't know how it would work for m finite.
20:03
@MikeMiller Nope, can't find a reference. Alexander, Whitney, Lefshetz, Cech, Eilenberg, Zilberg, and all sorts of people but no mention of who discovered which definition.
I don't have room for a dog!
@0celo7 Congrats on your new dog named Tamagotchi.
@MikeMiller Well he's going into the bin
So...
@Jake1234 Probably the only person in this room who has a shot at answering that is Daniel Fischer. If you post it on main, Brian Scott will make short work of it.
lol, this
Well, going to post a cup product question.
20:05
Alright, I'll post it on main.
If you're testing the link thing, someone else is already testing it.
He's got more than 5 links.
@MikeMiller what link thing?
I'm so out of the loop
i was wrong :p
gonna try tomorrow i feel sleepy now
@BalarkaSen who was the first to introduce the tangent bundle, anyway
20:12
No idea.
I have a Hausdorff space $X$ and $E$ is a compact subspace, i want to prove that for all $x\in X$, if $x\notin E$ then there exists a neighborhood of $V$ of $x$ and an other $U$ for $E$ , such that $V\cap U=\emptyset.$

I let $y\in E$ then $x\neq y$, as $X$ is a Hausdorff space there exist a neighborhood $V$ for $x$ and $W$ for $y$ such that $V\cap W=\emptyset$
any idea please
@MikeMiller Do you have a jstor account? Can you tell me if this define cup in an abstract way? It seems to start with simplicial sets, so I'd guess YES
My jstor is full.
As far as I can tell, iwriteonbananas comment does not start with simplicial sets.
Oops. Wrong link.
Look again.
20:21
Seems like I don't have access now.
Darn. Thanks.
Oh, seems like I do have a free slot
@Vrouvrou For every element y of E take a neightborhood U_y of it that is disjunct with some neightborhood of U_x of x, union of those neightborhoods U_y covers E, take a finite subcovering - then the finite intersection the appropriate V_i will be disjunct with the covering of E.
Nope nope nope.
This is the construction of the double complex. No way.
Why $U_x$ ?@Jake1234 we have at least one neighborhood of x so it is sufficient to take juste one no?
20:26
@MikeMiller They're constructing the chain complex from the double complex of $K$ and $L$.
So this is not the singular cup product.
I don't know what the term double complex means here. But I believe you.
I posted a soft-ish question here.
If you haven't read Smullyan's books, I think you'd like them. In particular read the short note I mentioned there.
is it bad that I intensely dislike puzzle books and the like
Did he not write Alice in the Puzzle Land?
I have read that.
20:28
I think he did.
Y. Perelman's books are great.
That's where I learnt math.
@Vrouvrou That's what I mean, for each x in E we take one neightborhood U_x, and one neightborhood.. we can call it V_xy, such that they're disjunct.
@0celo7: I think most puzzle books are either rather boring. I also hate books that have lateral thinking puzzles.
Lateral thinking puzzles are obnoxious as all hell.
I'm not familiar with the term
20:31
@BalarkaSen
"I had a class of 10 students. I had just taught the Birthday paradox, and told them that, of course, because we only have 10 students, it would be smart for me to take a bet that none of them had the same birthday. But one student wanted to take the bet with me, even though I reminded him of the probabilities involved. He won. Keeping in mind that he had no special knowledge of everyone else's birthdays, why was it a bad idea for me to take the bet?"
A: "There were identical twins in the class."
Wouldn't that count as special knowledge of everyone else's birthdays? @MikeMiller
Do you mean that he didn't have any information you didn't have?
Yeah, I interpeted the question to mean that he didn't have information that everyone else didn't have.
20:47
Well now consider the case where there are identical twins in the class. You and he make the same bet. He loses. Why did he lose?
very difficult birth
@0celo7 You were close the first time, disproportionate ass or otherwise.
Their births straddled the midnight hour
@Axoren that's boring
That's lateral thinking puzzles.
how about: one twin was taken from the womb and implanted into another women a month later
while kept in cryogenic storage
so there's a month's difference
BUT they came from the same egg
20:50
Identical twins, born to two different mothers on different days. Who am I?
@MikeMiller Search them where?
a player
@Axoren well if they look the same, chances are they're identical twins and have the same Bday
if it said "fraternal twins" I'd raise the BS flag
@Jake1234: i say let $y\in E$ then $x\neq y$ as X is Hausdorff there exists $V\in\mathcal{V}_x$ and $U_y\in \mathcal{V}_y$ we can choose $V,U$ opens so $E=\cup_{y\in E} U_y\cap E$ as $E$ is compact $E=\cup_{i=1}^n U_{y_i}\cap E$
how to continu?@Jake1234
 
2 hours later…
22:47
Nice pussy @Ocelo7
It's 4 AM and the fog's so thick outside I can't see anything.
Winter's here.
23:06
After pondering much over it, I think I've got to the conclusion the best way to do mathematics is absolutely alone.
Still, there are exceptions (like robjohn).
@robjohn these days I realize much more than ever how rare persons like you are.
@Vrouvrou The intersection of V_i from 1 to n (Where V_i contains x, and is disjunct with U_y_i and contain- the ones you wrote at the end of your last post) - it is a finite intersection of open sets, so it's an open set, let's call it A - it contains x, and it is disjunct with all the sets U_y_i. The finite union of U_y_i covers E in X, and so it's an open set containing E, let's call it B. Now A and B are disjunct, A contains x, B contains E.
Why is robjohn an exception?
@Jake1234 brilliant, correct, honest, a true mathematician.
So by exceptions, you mean exceptions as in.. people with whom it's ok to do mathematics?
@Jake1234 It's not the only one I met, but they seem to me so rare, or I simply had a very bad luck not to meet more.
@Jake1234 He is very OK to do mathematics with. I don't know him, but my inuition tells me that I'm safe even if I gave him the solution to the Riemann hypothesis.
I see, I thought you meant that it's best to do mathematics alone for efficiency of learning new stuff etc.
The perspective of "do mathematics alone, because others might end up annoying you" is not something that ever occured to me, but I'm just a bad student, so there's no risk of someone 'stealing' an idea from me. I must say I've met a large amount of very kind people at university.
23:15
@Jake1234 There are many nice people around, I'm sure of that.
I'd estimate it as one of the best places with relatively lot of people, where there's a relatively large chance I'd get my wallet back if I lost it or something etc. Compared to economics etc. departments.
@Jake1234 :-)
@OFFSHARING I am $\$\frac1{120}$
@Jake1234 It's nice to share mathematics, it's a very nice thing, especially with the kind of people I mentioned.
@robjohn What does that mean? :-)
Guys, would you please check the proof I posted in this original post please?
2
Q: Existence of a compactification with same weight for a Tychonoff space

Jake12343.5.2. Engelking Every Tychonoff space $X$ has a compactification $(Y,c)$, such that $w(X) = w(Y)$. Any ideas on the proof of this? I think I get it for the case of $m=w(X) \geq \mathbb{N}$ , as then I could embed $X$ in $I^m$ with some fuction $f$, and I would have $w(f(X)) = m$ (homeomorp...

23:18
@OFFSHARING Dime a dozen
@robjohn lol, I wasn't aware of dime a dozen. New stuff I learned. :-)
23:30
just know about the idiom when they say "idc a dime" which means carelessness
@skillpatrol right pal !
Hi pal @Agawa001
Aka 10 cents/12
robjhon has an exceptionally rhetoric ego
How so?
23:39
the way round pal
Getting there is half the fun, no?
@robjohn I agree with you that it has gotten hard to make people notice answers.
Posted 2 answers today, both has 0 scores as of now.
@Jake1234 If you lost your sanity here, I doubt you'd get that back ;-)
@BalarkaSen I've had days where I posted 6 or more answers and none of them got any votes.
Later, they might, though
I'm not sure I'd get my sanity back if I lost it at school either.
23:50
Math is notorious for destroying "sanity."
@BalarkaSen Maybe you post too clever answers and people don't manage to see how clever your posts are.
Nope, I post standard answers.
They just ain't getting more upvotes after winterbash.
@skillpatrol what was that?
An example of an optical illusion.
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