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14:23
@anon was actually being serious, don't know why that happened.....
I didn't think it was my place to explain the road ahead. If you will.
People: please don't flag for no good reason. The word you can hardly be offensive in any context.
What happened ?
I got a 30 minute suspension for mentioning the change.
I honestly wonder what the comment is for that.
that's silly
What is the change?
14:29
I know right @anon it's perfectly natural and is something that Skull would understand later on in his life.
I think it would have been inappropriate to explain the other meaning of arousal
@AlecTeal You really don't know when to back down, do you?
I don't know what I did.
Not everyone in here is of university age.
@AlecTeal You raised an offensive flag on a non-offensive comment.
@Rememberme here is 15 IIRC.
Are there two meanings to arousal?
Surely it is understood as stimulating activity?
Gosh... Such a mess
Careful.
I would of expected when I posted it, especially in the context
The change is not something we talk about @Krijn
@AlecTeal Puberty you can talk about. As long as you manage to do so without its being an underhanded insult to another user.
@terdon ask the age of the user I said it to.
@AlecTeal Why should I care what their age is? Why do you?
4
Aug 15 '12 at 21:33, by skullpatrol
I remember my dad caught me drinking scotch when I was 14 years old, he beat me so bad I was sore for a week :(
Because they're 14.
14:32
Just don't abuse the flag system.
What happens to 14 year olds @terdon ?
He was apparently equal or older than 14 in 2012
@AlecTeal Yeah? And? So? What? If you're older, act like it.
6
@GaloisintheField How the hell did you find that so fast
Anyway please leave the drama out of this room.
2
14:33
@terdon can you not address me in that starred comment, I'm not trying to have a talk.
Then perhaps you should stop pinging me.
@terdon is mentioning puberty a sign of being young?
@AlecTeal Please stop.
@AlecTeal Please do not flag issues in the chat if they are not important. Every time you flag something it goes to EVERY moderator across the entire network and that's rude. Flags should be used for serious issues. Do it again and you might get suspended.
^^ That.
14:36
It'll be nice to have actually done something to get suspended this time.
alec is exasperated at being auto-suspended for mentioning puberty, then taking it out on you guys with sarcastic trolling
Yeah "auto". 'cos the filter picked up on all the other uses of the word.
I doubt anyone clicked a suspend button, but I'm sure people were behind flags.
hence, auto
it happens. happened to me before even, and I'm a room owner.
but if you want to deserve it, then go ahead with the banwish
Oh I flagged that to test the "auto" theory. (confession)
eh, ok
14:39
Yet you're still here.
I never said 1 flag = ban
but I'm not fully knowledgeable of how the chat suspensions work
Why does the starred comment in the right banenr by Darth_Vader say @@ and then some number, instead of AlecTeal as it does in chat?
20
A: How many chat flags are required to remove a message/ban a user?

balphaThese are the current numbers ("current" because they can obviously be changed, but there aren't any plans to do so; they have been like this for a while): The threshold is six, meaning the net flag count of the message has to reach six. Net flag count means the number of flags minus the number ...

Wow 6 people flagged that?
it's possible fewer flagged it, then others around the network got a notice of it and voted without looking at context
14:41
A not-evil plan formed*
Well that was well handled.
Now, lets get back to mathematics shall we?
2
What is the structure of squares in $\mathbb{F}_p$?
Withouth $0$ of course
actual question or attempted segue?
Check out this graph:
Actual question
$\Bbb F_p^\times$ is cyclic, so consider $2(\Bbb Z/m\Bbb Z)$ (written additively) for generic $m$ instead
14:49
But $-1$ is only square if $p \equiv 1 \mod{4}$
you didn't ask which elts were squares
So only in that case does the group have an element of order $2$
-1 always has order 2 if p>2
you mean order 4?
No, I mean
The group $(\mathbb{F}_p^*)^2$ has an element of order $2$ if and only if $p \equiv 1 \mod{4}$
And only one element of order $2$, at that
So the group structure cannot be something like $\Bbb Z/2 \Bbb Z \times \Bbb Z/n \Bbb Z$ with $n$ even.
$(\Bbb F_p^\times)^2$ is $\cong \Bbb Z/\frac{p-1}{2}\Bbb Z$ has an elt of ord 2 iff $2\mid \frac{p-1}{2}$, yes
14:53
Is it always isomorphic to that group, for every $p$?
p>2 (prime powers even), yes
Is it easy to find the generator for that group?
no
:(
I'll look up a proof of the fact.
I imagine the difficulty is comparable to finding a generator for $\Bbb F_q^\times$ itself, which is at least as difficult as finding a generator for $(\Bbb Z/p\Bbb Z)^\times$ ($p$ prime), which is difficult enough that there are only algorithms
I think there are formulas one can derive for various (congruence) classes of $p$ as rational functions of $p$
14:58
Yeah okay, that gets difficult
@BalarkaSen What is the best book to start Abstract Algebra plus having lots of practice problems with solutions?
@FreeMind "Best" varies from person-to-person.
For good exercises, Dummit-Foote
For good, geometric introduction to the theory, look in Artin.
And if you're Dutch, theres a series of excellent syllabi
@BalarkaSen You're right. I have tendency toward geometric interpretation.
@Krijn Unfortunately, I am not.
16:00
@BalarkaSen @MikeMiller Is $\pi_0S≃\mathbb{Z}$ where S is the sphere spectrum?
16:28
An extension of Abbott's Flatland: youtu.be/T0jdvg8bF5E
16:56
Is this room about linear algebra?
Does anyone know a workaround on how to delete or edit a comment which did not parse correctly and the edit/delete button is being covered up by links to other questions on the far right?
I think this chat room is dead :(
17:16
It's definitely not dead, there are plenty of people posting daily
next to nobody is online right now tho
the room is about general discussions regarding maths, so linear algebra questions are welcome, as long as they can be reasonably answered in the chat, for questions which need a long answer the main site would probably be better
17:27
Would someone like to help me writing down a formal proof dealing different cases of this claim math.stackexchange.com/q/1482309/275935 ? I wish to learn writing down formal proofs and not just trivial hints.
17:54
Could someone help me writing down a formal proof dealing with different cases of this claim math.stackexchange.com/q/1482309/275935 ? On my current stage of learning I wish to and need to learn writing down formal proofs and not just trivial hints.
18:19
I wouldn't recommend graduate level text book to start abstract algebra
@FreeMind
Try introduction to abstract algebra hunger ford
first
18:42
i think the upvote/downvote function in MSE is already misused sometimes...presenting informal/trivial hints get upvotes...presenting newbie formal proofs get downvotes without any comment
and without any editing
@Tien-ChengHuang remember they're fictional internet points, they're worthless.
19:05
@robjohn Their loss!
@Tien-ChengHuang Adderall.
@MickLH what Adderal? you mean some math learners take Adderall for better performance?
In all seriousness, it should only be used with a doctor's prescription.
But I am under the impression that it's the standard solution to students studying far beyond the "tired" threshold.
in fact i asked may i take Adderall to a doctor once and of course he refused (in Taiwan)
There are quite a lot of students here in Norway that use Adderall, especially in cramming subjects such as law and psychology.
19:20
what about taking Wellbutrin (bupropion)? anyone heard of this NDRI antidepressant? it is said that Wellbutrin is activating.
Well clearly, don't experiment with drugs if you're pressed for time, individual reactions can be wildly varied
And your doctor is the only person who can answer that question anyways
I just made a joke about how my experience with college was, everyone was partying all their time away and then abusing adderall to make up for it. I think you are taking it too seriously in search of a magic solution.
Let me be clear, Adderall is exactly equivalent to "speed", a harsh street drug. Unless you have severe ADHD, I think it's not any kind of solution for trying to learn in the long term. I think you're already on the right track just being disciplined enough to study.
The only "magic bullet" I can think of for you here is sleep.
ha thanks for your idea :) in fact i also asked taking Provigil (modafinil) to a doctor and he also refused. Adderall and Provigil are controlled substances in Taiwn.
19:51
how do they get the identity in the red rectangle?img.ctrlv.in/img/15/10/17/5622a67a0cd7b.png
@JoeStavitsky I'm a horrible teacher but if nobody else answers: It's by definition in that situation, remember that the substitution only applies when your expression can be mapped to $\sqrt{a^2-u^2}$ and then look closely at the variable a
right, so a is something that is squared, in this case 3, but so what? How do thgey get cos? Do they somehow integrate dtheta?
@Tien-ChengHuang Adderall is really good for people who need it, if your doctor says you don't you probably don't
@Joe $1- \sin^2\theta = \cos^2\theta$
Hello again @AlexanderGruber
20:00
You didn't tell me what kind of math you were thinking about when I asked you in the morning :)
I'm doing algebraic topology.
Oh, me too :D
What are you doing in algebraic topology?
something called persistence landscapes
@BalarkaSen, sorry, noit following
do you know about persistence diagrams?
20:01
@AlexanderGruber Is this in any way related to persistent homology? Otherwise, I don't think so.
@JoeStavitsky ah the trig identity, well @BalarkaSen has aimed more precisely at your issue than I did, supporting my claim of being a poor teacher :P
oh so because x =3 sin theta, then from the triangle you get the identity
everything scales by 3 therefore right?
@PaulPlummer!
@BalarkaSen Yeah that's exactly what it is
Hey @BalarkaSen! It has been a little while
20:05
@JoeStavitsky I would like to answer but I will almost surely confuse you because I don't understand what's being asked precisely. I will point out that the 3 comes from $a^2$ being 9 just in case that helps though, sorry if it's painfully obvious already though too.
no thats quite clear
@AlexanderGruber Ah. Well, I know what persistent homology is, but I am not really into topological data analysis.
@PaulPlummer Long time. How's things?
@BalarkaSen Shame. It's fun!
Yeah, the concept is pretty beautiful.
I suggest using Cech homology in place singular homology to analyze the datas, though.
@BalarkaSen I think it's equivalent for finite data anyhow
20:09
hey @PaulPlummer
It is going alright, probably just going to be in here for a little while, procrastinating for a bit before starting dif geom hw. But just got a computer in my office, so now it is more convenient to come to chat, so I should be coming more. Still have not done much algebraic topology, been busier expected, and bad time management skills :) But I did bring student geometry topology seminar back to life here. @BalarkaSen How about you?
Hey @KarimMansour
Anyhow the diagram is just what comes out when you track the birth and death of cycles as you grow your cech complex
The thing I am suggesting is the following : if $X$ is a collection of a bunch of data points on $\Bbb R^2$, denote $X_\delta$ to be the $\delta$-thickening of $X$. In persistent homology, you vary $\delta$ and see which betti numbers persist more.
@Balarka Right, that's what you do
The thing I want to do is to construct the Cech nerve for each $\delta$, as follows : fix a point for each neighborhood.
Fix an edge for each intersection of two neighborhoods
Fix a 2-simplex for each triple intersection of three neighborhoods.
And so on and so forth.
20:12
Right. So, you compute the homology group for each $\delta$ as you grow your balls
Now take the homology of this abstract simplicial complex.
Yep.
That'd detect the finer details, won't it?
That's the idea
So, the diagrams shows how long each cycle persists. You make one for each $n$
@PaulPlummer Very nice. I just finished my (school) exams, so enjoying the leisure, doing calculus and revising algebraic topology.
20:14
Have you been learning cohomology? @BalarkaSen
so for example say after you compute the homology at $\delta_1$, you find a $1$-cycle. Eventually once you keep growing $\delta$, you'll get to some $\delta_2$ where the $1$-cycle closes up
@PaulPlummer I can do most of the exercises in chapter 3, but I still have to digest some theory.
@AlexanderGruber Right.
then you add $(\delta_1,\delta_2)$ to your persistence diagram for $1$-cycles, which is just a list of intervals like that.
Hmm. This reminds me of networks. Oh, I guess this is a network, but closeness realized by persistency in algebraic invariants of $X_\delta$'s.
Could someone give some healthy comments on this newbie answer math.stackexchange.com/a/1473377/275935 ? My answer only got downvotes without any comments or editings for now.
20:20
@AlexanderGruber So, you're on the computational side of things, then?
did I read "computation"
@MickLH :)
lol one day @BalarkaSen, one day!
@BalarkaSen More or less, I guess. I'm doing theory behind it, implementation is secondary but I do that too
Nice. What happened to your program on studying groups using graphs?
20:23
@BalarkaSen Finished it, published it
Oh, oh, let me look.
I'm working on studying the prime complex of a solvable group right now, too, but that research is peripheral to what I'm doing in TDA
(which is mostly because I am stuck on it)
my institution does not qualify me for free access grumble grumble
Oh let me see I think there is a free version somewheres
@AlexanderGruber Do you want to tell me what kind of things you defined there/what you proved in the paper? If you have the time, I mean.
20:25
@BalarkaSen Cool, know anything about bounded cohomology? Seems like it has some interesting applications. I think my goal for studying algebraic topology on my own will be to get to a point where I feel like I understand some of the bounded cohomology stuff.
Has anyone ever considered the cardinality of the set of all subsequences of a fixed sequence?
The problem is if we consider subsequences with the same terms are the same element of the set, than investigating the cardinality will be very non-trivial.
Can you see it here? @MickLH
@Balarka Yeah, sure.
@AlexanderGruber In fact, I've already archived the full text available there :) thank you
@PaulPlummer No, what's a bounded cohomology?
The main thing that's important is the Frobenius digraph, which is this tool for talking about how sylow subgroups of solvable groups interact with one another
20:27
@AlexanderGruber If you want to elaborate, I'm all ears.
How can I write $(z^2+a^2)(z^2+b^2)(z^2+c^2)$ in the complete square form if $z$ is a complex number?
So basically there's two facts which motivate the definition
@BalarkaSen Is it possible to make the question in the complete square form via Wolfram Alpha?
I don't know.
1. one way to characterize solvable groups is that a group is solvable if and only if it has all its Hall subgroups. (Hall subgroups are the same thing as Sylow subgroups but for multiple primes, e.g. if a group's order was $2\times 3^2\times 5$, it's $\{2,3\}$-Hall subgroup would be a subgroup of order $2\times 3^2$.)
20:29
Ah. What do you mean by "has all it's Hall subgroups"?
I mean that there exists a subgroup of that order
You mean that for any set $S$ of prime divisors of $|G|$, there is a $S$-Hall subgroup of $G$?
OK. That's pretty cool.
So, like, $A_5$ for example doesn't have a $\{2,5\}$-Hall subgroup
20:31
Nod.
So one thing that's neat about that is that any induced subgraph of the prime graph of a solvable group is the prime graph of a corresponding Hall subgroup
You have to tell me what a prime graph is, because I forgot all about it.
which is a pretty nice thing to have happen if you're studying prime graphs
I remember you mention it.
oh, right. The vertex set is the set of prime divisors of $|G|$, and you have an edge $\{p,q\}$ iff there's an element of order $pq$ in $G$
20:32
The second paragraph in this sort of explains it: An invitation to bounded cohomology @BalarkaSen
OK. That's a cool fact. So what did you end up proving with these?
Well, the second cool thing is a theorem that somebody proved about solvable groups: "a solvable group with a disconnected prime graph is either a Frobenius group or a 2-Frobenius group"
@PaulPlummer Oh, ok, so you're just looking at the chain complex of free abelian groups on bounded cochains on $M$. What can you prove with these?
@AlexanderGruber Oh wow.
So, Frobenius groups are basically semidirect products $K\rtimes C$ where $C$ acts fixed point freely on $K$. (i.e. if $k\in K, c\in C$, then $c^{-1}kc=k$ iff $k=1$)
That's a very beautiful fact.
Yeah, I'm familiar with Frobenius groups.
20:36
Ahh, good
2-Frobenius, if you aren't familiar, are groups with a subgroup that's Frobenius, and if you quotient the whole group by its Frobenius kernel, you get another Frobenius group.
so kind of like one Frobenius group on top of the other
In any case, the main thing is that we have this very specific description of groups with disconnected prime graphs
Yes. I remember looking up the definitions at some point of time because it came up in a topology problem.
@AlexanderGruber Indeed. What else can these prime graphs reveal about your group?
So, knowing these two facts, one might make the following observation
(@PaulPlummer might be interested in this. He'll all into geometric group theory)
if there is an edge $\{p,q\}$ that is missing from the prime graph of a solvable group, then, necessarily, there is a $\{p,q\}$-Hall subgroup of $G$ that is either Frobenius or $2$-Frobenius
ah, alright.
20:40
(what with the induced subgraph being, well, just $p$ and $q$ with no edge. That is disconnected.)
Right.
So the main thing that I did in this paper was use this to define something called the Frobenius digraph
we're interested in edges that aren't in the prime graph, so we look at the complement of the prime graph. Every edge corresponds to a hall subgroup that's either Frobenius or 2-frobenius
the interesting thing about Frobenius groups is that the kernel and complement have to be coprime. Thus for each edge, one vertex corresponds to the kernel, the other to the complement
Wait, what's a complement of a graph?
20:43
Just the opposite graph. $\{p,q\}$ is in the complement of the graph if $\{p,q\}$ is not in the graph
Oh, I see.
so, the basic idea is, every edge in the complement corresponds to a Frobenius group, and that means one vertex on the edge corresponds to a Frobenius kernel. It would behoove us to keep track of the information of which vertex that is.
So, we orient the edge, and pointing it at the kernel
(a similar rule is made for the $2$-Frobenius case, we point the edge towards the kernel of the quotient Frobenius group)
that orientation of the complement is called the Frobenius digraph
Right.
I see.
So, the paper is basically about using the Frobenius digraph to prove a bunch of open stuff about solvable groups, the first of which is an if-and-only-if characterization theorem of the prime graphs of solvable groups
What's that?
I mean, what is the precise statement of the theorem? Is it too technical?
20:49
in one direction, the complement of a solvable group is three colorable and triangle-free
(triangle-free is something they proved in another paper, the three-colorable part is the thing i use the frobenius digraph to prove)
and in the other direction, every graph that satisfies those conditions is (isomorphic to) the prime graph of some solvable group
0
Q: Make $(z^2+a^2)(z^2+b^2)(z^2+c^2)$ into complete square form?

FreeMindHow can I make $(z^2+a^2)(z^2+b^2)(z^2+c^2)$ into complete square form? Consider $z$ to be complex number, a, b, and c to be constants. What have I tried? I have expanded the into polynomial but I don't have any clue about making it into the complete square form below $$x+ax = \left(x + \frac {a...

@AlexanderGruber Interesting.
Yeah, it's not too bad.
The three colorable thing comes from proving that the Frobenius digraph has to be 3-path free
Not at all. Those are cool results.
Meaning that there's a natural way of splitting the primes into 3 sets: those at the bottom of a 2-path, those in the middle, and those at the top
there's some illustrations of that in the paper which might make that a bit more intuitive
20:54
I'm bookmarking it. I'll definitely have a look tomorrow (though I don't know too much group theory - just some undegrad stuff)
Well I initially saw it when I was flipping through "Groups acting on the circle" by Ghys and it gives an invariant (bounded Euler class) to study groups acting on the circle. I don't really know much about. It seems to capture a lot of ideas of similiar to quasi-isometry (and a lot of other "quasi-__"), where you are more concerned with "approximate" invarients
Thanks for these!
@PaulPlummer Whoa!
No problem
@PaulPlummer That's neat
I'm interested : subgroups of $\text{homeo}(S^1)$ and $\text{diffeo}(S^1)$ are hard.
@PaulPlummer By the way, I pinged you a while ago (but, naturally, you didn't get the ping): do you know anything about the recent development on the study of the structure of the Cremona group? I have been told that some decent results have been discovered using geometric group theory.
I guess there is even a characterization of hyperbolic groups in terms of bounded cohomology...
21:00
Here is the paper, I think.
@BalarkaSen No I do not, never even heard of the group before now
The cremona group $Cr_n(k)$ is defined to be the group of birational automorphisms of $\Bbb A_n^k$. Equivalently, it's the group $Aut(k(X_1, X_2, \cdots, X_n)/k)$
Looks really cool. It seems like every other thing I here about analogous to mapping class groups and things acting on Teichmuller space :)
Hehe. Well, I don't even know how the Teichmuller space is defined.
Neither do I, I just saw that in the paper
21:08
The reason I am interested is that someone told me one can perhaps try to generalize these techniques to study Galois groups of algebraic extensions.
(I have in mind, once again, Gal(\bar Q/Q))
Although I am going to a seminar that is working towards Neilsen-Thurston classifcation.
So I should be learning something about Teichmuller space
at some point
Oh? What's the Nielsen-Thurston classification again?
It characterizes homeomorphisms of some surfaces (compact, maybe orientable)
Hm, ok.
Have you looked into generalizing techniques to your favorite group @BalarkaSen
21:20
No, not really @PaulPlummer. I have much more basic stuff to learn before I can even understand the techniques involved for the Cremona group.
:) I guess I am in a similar boat, have some more stuff to learn. Maybe someday we can work on a project involving some of this stuff. Looks like an interesting opportunity for geometric group theorists and algebraic geometers(maybe even number theorists) to work together @BalarkaSen
Indeed.
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