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8:00 PM
"Furthermore, remark note that f is uniformly continuous" doesn't sound that wrong, but "note that" sounds better.
 
"Frthermore, remark note that f is niformly continous" sounds better, but it might give Byron a stroke.
 
BTW, set theory literature update: I've directed Amazon to send me a copy of Kunen's book. They had Cohen's Set Theory and the Continuum Hypothesis for £12, so I threw that in also.
 
How much for Kunen's book?
 
£56 plus tax
 
This reminds me. I thought of gifting myself a book for Christmas. =)
Have to shop around in Amazon.
 
8:03 PM
I saw Cohen's book in my advisor's office today.
I also saw a book by G. Edgar :-)
 
@AsafKaragila =) Which other active members have written books?
Arturo?
 
In fact I think I have a photocopy of Cohen lying around somewhere, from when I was an undergraduate and took a masters-level formal logic course. I must have asked irritating enough questions that the prof donated a copy to me ...
 
Hehe :-)
 
Are we having a MathJax problem on the main site?
 
I love Dover reprints.
 
8:06 PM
@robjohn Works fine for me.
 
... however, I was young and uneducated and couldn't abide the notation, using \supset for implication. So I gave up on it when I found there was a page spread missing from the photocopy.
 
They are like Penguin publications of mathematical books!
 
Never mind. It seems to have resolved itself.
 
@tb Is the 6 questions a day restriction a soft one?
 
Anyone know of a reason behind the use of \supset for logical implication, or was it just a coincidence that the same symbol came to be used for two more-or-less opposing concepts?
 
8:09 PM
@Srivatsan: I don't know how exactly it works and how strict it is. I'm just parroting what I read. I never tried to ask that many questions a day.
 
@HenningMakholm Who uses the supset notation for implication? (This is a serious question btw.) Also is there a different LaTeX command for that symbol in this context, or do you actually say "A \supset B" to mean logical implication? That looks a little awkward.
@tb There aren't that many people posting questions so often.
 
@Srivatsan Nobody does that nowadays, but seems to have been not uncommon in the early part of the 20th century.
I.e., long before TeX.
 
@HenningMakholm Oh, ok fine.
 
Yeah, just like Lauchli's paper was written in such way that it would take some work to understand what the hell he means.
Which is why I intend to rewrite it in plain and modern English. Perhaps add forcing arguments to it as well.
Who knows, this may end up as a M.Sc. thesis...
 
@Henning: at least Peano was among the offenders:
 
8:14 PM
@Srivatsan I think Russell and Whitehead used it. Gödel (1931) did in his simplified PM system.
 
@tb Ah, an upside-down C. And explanations in Latin :-)
 
It seems like someone found my suggestion of Schilling useful :-).
 
Google translates "absurdum aut nihil" to "or not at all absurd". Who can translate this translation for me?
 
@Henning: Sorry it's from Arithmetices principia: nova methodo (1889), I added a link above.
 
8:17 PM
My weak Latin skills make it "the absurd, or nothing".
 
Alright, someone quickly explain to me how to use \DeclareMathOperator on MSE. It's supposed to work in all the equations after declared, right?
 
@HenningMakholm This is also known as "The Nihilistic dilemma".
 
@anon: yes.
What's the problem?
 
@anon You can also use \newcommand
 
I do e.g. $\DeclareMathOperator\SL{SL}$ but using $\SL$ doesn't work later in the post.
 
8:20 PM
@anon: use $\DeclareMathOperator{\SL}{SL}$, that worked for me (maybe mathJaX doesn't like the omitted braces.
 
wait, nvm
problem was I used Declare twice on the same thing, must've stepped on each other's toes or something
 
@AsafKaragila Is that a joke? Google locates much mopey philosophy, but nothing that looks like logic?
 
@HenningMakholm Half a joke... it is indeed a nihilistic dilemma. Life (the absurd) or death (i.e. nothing)...
 
@JonasTeuwen: You're welcome. I'm not OCD about English, I really only did it because it says on your profile that you would like to be corrected.
 
Yes, I like that.
 
8:23 PM
@AsafKaragila Sounds more existentialist than nihilist to me, but what do I know.
Interestingly enough, Peano's table implies that he was using e.g. $x \epsilon N$ to mean $x\in\mathbb{N}$, but glossing \epsilon as "is" and N as "a positive integer".
 
Yes, epsilon is also the 'name' of the \in relation.
 
Christian Blatter often comes with quite crafty arguments.
 
@AsafKaragila Sure, the relation and etymology is clear, but pronouncing \in as "is" sure looks weird to the modern eye.
 
@Jonas: yes, he's a nice guy. I had my very first lecture with him :)
 
@HenningMakholm Perhaps you are correct.
 
8:35 PM
Ah, you were also lucky enough to have been at ETH :-).
 
Yes.
 
Does someone know if Grafakos in his harmonic analysis books assumes that the measures are sigma-finite? I can't seem to find it but he talks about simple functions, and I don't think they are dense if the space is not sigma-finite.
 
Even more remarkable, Peano lets $R$ mean "a positive rational number" and $Q$ "a positive real number" (when it doesn't mean "a quantity").
 
@JonasTeuwen They are always dense in L^p for 1 \leq p < \infty
The point is that an integrable function is non-zero only on a \sigma-finite set
 
Than I must have misunderstood the comment of my prof.
 
8:38 PM
What did he say?
 
I think he tries to correct the statement of Riesz-Thorin which I wrote down to add "sigma-finite" and then an arrow to "simple function" where he writes "not dense".
 
You only need (something like) sigma-finiteness in order for the duality between L^1 and L^\infty to work well. I'm pretty sure interpolation techniques should work in greater generality.
 
Well, he does seem to like sigma-finite...
I'll write: "Counterexample?" next to it :-).
 
It has of course many advantages beyond that :)
 
What if countable unions blow you out of proportion?
I mean, the axiom of countable choice is for suckers... :-)
 
8:44 PM
@Jonas: I just checked in Garling's book, and he doesn't impose any restriction on the measure space for Riesz-Thorin
 
Thanks.
But the theorem which I cite proves the result on simple functions, and then extends it by density.
But if that doesn't need sigma-finite, which it seems like indeed it doesn't...
 
Well, {|f|^p > epsilon} has finite measure :)
 
I wrote down some of my results not in full generality because I didn't need them in full generality, but the proof needs only small modifications to have a more general situation (say from p = 2 to 1 < p <= infty). My advisor then corrects it. What is best? Full generality or not?
 
I'd go for full generality.
 
That can be dangerous... cf. the latest xkcd.com
 
8:50 PM
I had also cited a theorem inside a proof (which I only need there), but there were some complaints about that. Then I said that Stein does it as well. Then he was more like: Well, if Stein does it, I can't say it is wrong, but I like it better if you cite it before the proof. Oh well.
@AsafKaragila Hah.
 
Proof by Stein. =)
 
@JonasTeuwen What's wrong with citing a result in a proof?
 
Doing \begin{thm}...\end{thm} inside the proof env!
Actually recall the result.
 
@JonasTeuwen Hm. Isn't there a nicer solution?
I don't really like that.
 
Sure, just cite it before the proof. I liked it better this way because it creates a continuous story, but if the one that has to give me a grade dislikes it...
 
8:53 PM
Also. I have to say that Shelah's office the THE most cluttered office I have ever seen.
 
@Jonas: another solution would be to paraphrase: We want to prove that ... . This follows from Stein's Theorem X, provided we check that a) ... b)... c)... hold.
 
Yes, I'd prefer that but here they want that you don't need to download the papers to see what the result you're citing is in a thesis.
 
How about a footnote stating the theorem?
 
It is too long for that, so I have just cited it right before the proof.
 
How about the theorem stating a footnote?
 
8:57 PM
@Jonas: As I said, that's what I'd prefer doing as well.
 
Do you even have a choice? :-)
 
Yes, I even have V=L
 
Maybe I'll like it better in the future as well. I used to dislike abuse of notation, but it can be so handy sometimes :-).
 
@tb So you have diamonds, eh?
 
@AsafKaragila The theorem stating a footnote? Wut?
 
8:59 PM
@Asaf: no, not really, I save them for the engagement ring, so they won't be mine for long :)
 
@JonasTeuwen Wut footnote a theorem? Stating?
@tb What about Suslin trees?
 
@Asaf: My garden is full of them, together with crawling king snake lemmas.
 
@tb I see. You don't have anything sharp though, that much is certain.
 
*enough*
 
:-D
I think I'm spent, time to sleep.
Goodnight folks.
 
9:05 PM
Good night!
 
Good night.
 
@Asaf Good night.
 
@Srivatsan: FYI we weren't talking about real world situations :)
 
@tb And you tell me you dislike using math jargon humorously =)
 
@Srivatsan: No, as I said I don't like to apply it to the real world.
 
9:09 PM
@tb Ah, I didn't note the subtlety. Oh well.
 
Doesn't he basically ask for a downvote?
 
"I know at least one poster here that'll jump at the chance if any of it is erroneous......" - I wonder if that poster is me. I have asked em for supporting references in the past...
 
@Srivatsan: No, I think he means Adam Smith or me.
The former, rather.
 
I knew you were a possibility. Adam Smith, I didn't remember.
=)
 
I just wonder why it is so hard for him to understand that it is his effing duty to check his facts before posting
(and basically he doesn't add anything that's not already in the question, except for opinion and skewed timelines)
 
9:19 PM
Let's see: Para 1 is irrelevant.
Para 2: possibly relevant and possibly wrong factually. Not sure.
Para 3: opinion > /dev/null
One second.
Spivak is an American mathematician, right? Do you know when Bourbaki's influence reached America?
 
Same time, possibly before. They certainly influenced Kelley's topology
 
So para 2 could be correct: just checking.
I have a question about the origins of topology again.
 
Well, that would make 2 possibly 3 sentences that would easily fit in a comment (and they aren't more because they are not backed with references) and KCd asked for earlier attributions than 1965:
"I found the name "Fubini's theorem" used for multiple Riemann integrals in Spivak's Calculus on Manifolds (1965). Does anyone know of an earlier usage of the label "Fubini's theorem" for multiple Riemann integrals?"
He doesn't mention any of those. Anyway, I'm not voting, someone else already did...
 
KCd's post asks for facts (the earliest references that associate the theorem with Fubini), not why the switch happened (this, we might never know for certain).
 
Exactly.
 
9:33 PM
@Srivatsan Going back to my question, is it true that a general topological space was defined before a metric space was defined?
@Srivatsan Testing whether I can reply to my own comment.
 
@Srivatsan: No, completely wrong. Metric spaces: 1906 Fréchet; Hausdorff spaces: 1914 Hausdorff; general topological spaces: 1922 Kuratowski, more history here
 
@tb That's reassuring.
=)
 
@Srivatsan: of course, there were attempts to capture the notion of convergence in so-called convergence structures earlier on, but that's also around the turn of the centuries.
 
@tb I was wondering what definitions Poincaré (say) had in mind in stating his conjecture.
 
@Srivatsan Well, he modeled his things à la Riemann by coordinate patches, roughly speaking. The precise definitions were quite fuzzy. Only Weyl clarified the notion of surfaces, and the notions of manifolds, polyhedral complexes etc. came only in the 20ies. Rado, Alexandroff, Reidemeister, etc.
Nowaday's definition of a manifold goes back to Whitney in the 30ies, if I'm not completely mistaken.
 
9:41 PM
@tb Um, ok.
 
Also, Poincaré first stated it in terms of Betti numbers which he then observed to be wrong with his "fake sphere". Only then he introduced the notion of the fundamental group.
 
@tb Yes, I know that story a bit.
Just the story, not the technical bits. =)
I always find it amazing how people could work with definitions that seem so confusing or fuzzy...
Ah, I didn't see that Adam posted a similar comment 3 mins before mine... math.stackexchange.com/questions/79940/…
 
And we have a second non-answer.
 
I wrote my comment as a response to that non-answer =)
 
Ah, I just saw that. Thank you.
@Srivatsan I believe it's a matter of the culture you grew up in. The human brain is incredibly good at adapting to training and if you're not biased towards nowaday's standards of precision you don't even observe that things are fuzzy.
 
9:53 PM
True.
 
10:08 PM
@JackSchmidt I feel you can go easy on boldface in your question. :=)
 
@tb The same seems to hold for philosophy.
 
@JonasTeuwen What holds for philosophy?
 
His remark on the cultures at :52:54.
 
Do you get that precise timestamps? How?
 
@tb Do you think Jack Schmidt will be pinged by my comment? He was in chat a long time ago...
 
10:12 PM
Not sure, the chat seems to change from time to time. But I did add this script. Let me see.
@HenningMakholm This.
 
@Srivatsan lessened a bit
 
@JackSchmidt Thanks :)
And also, out of curiosity. Why simulate math using italics?
 
partially a habit from wikipedia. it renders faster, no jitter, and looks better on mobile.
 
@JackSchmidt Um, ok.
If the OP was a new user, I would've edited the post by now. =) Obviously, you must know what you are doing, so I didn't touch it.
 
@JackSchmidt Do you have an editor for that and enter the question via copy-paste? Isn't html much less efficient than TeX?
(for math)
 
10:17 PM
@tb What does efficient mean in this context?
Efficiency in typesetting?
 
Well, if Jack writes $a^2b^{-3}a$ then he writes *a*<sup>2</sup>*b*<sup>-3</sup>*a*, for example
 
@tb Ah. I got deceived by his question today. That one is a breeze though.
Yes, it looks painful for general math
 
@tb: I have a script that converts &times; to ×, but otherwise I just type it. If there are too many exponents or if it is a displayed equation, then I use mathjax. Roughly I just follow the manual of style from wikipedia. Its very easy once you get used to it. It doesn't take any longer than dollar signs, and never hangs the browser while editing, etc.
 
Okay, I see. Thanks!
 
gym time, cya
 
10:26 PM
Have fun!
 
@JackSchmidt Bye!
 
10:45 PM
Yay, early dinner. Bye, @tb.
 
@Srivatsan: bye, see you
 
11:45 PM
Observe the number of questions that Didier Piau has answered :-)
 
One must ask him to stop immediately answering questions.
 
I have a snapshot of his profile at this point.
 
@robjohn He's devilishly fast!
 
Hellishly accurate!
I have done very little today on MSE. I need to go AFK for a bit, so it doesn't look as if today is going to be a reputable day for me.
 
See you later
 
11:50 PM
I'll be back...
 
Not reputable? Seems to me you've made 90 so far.
 
go for a capping day tomorrow!
 
@Henning: compared to the last few days it is about 50%.
 
Oh, that. I think to be completely unreputable there should be no reputation earned at all.
 
when I get back from my errands, I will answer something big :-D
@HenningMakholm I didn't say completely unreputable, just a prediction of low reputability.
cyall inabit
 
11:54 PM
I never had a rep cap :-).
 
@Jonas: seen this comment? How much I agree with that!
 
@tb Christian's comment?
 
exactly.
 
I have that feeling quite often.
 
I was puzzled when I saw 5 votes, left a comment here when there were 7, but now there are twice as many.
@Jonas: if you don't mind my asking: did you go for dinner with that guest or did you cook?
 
11:58 PM
@tb I will do both as there were not enough candidates to go today, so they will go tomorrow!
 
Oh, nice!
 
Yes.
 

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