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17:00
oh, I see.
yeah, I guess that's what de Rham cohomology is about (there was a complex version of it, but I forgot)
although I really don't know anything about it
incidentally, those intersection numbers do have a utility in computing contour integrals (in addition to being a way to compute winding numbers, i guess)
namely, it shows up in the Picard-Lefschetz formula for how such contour integrals transform under monodromy
I don't think Dolbeaut cohomology has an interpretation in terms of integrating along subamnifolds.
i should really know what Dolbeaut cohomology is, beyond just something vague and half-remembered
It's the above-mentioned complex version of de Rham.
Dolbeault. Sorry.
right, but that's not terribly detailed
my vague recollection with dolbeault was that one had to use both $\partial$ and $\overline{\partial}$
17:06
On a complex manifold you have a splitting of $\Omega^i$ into $\oplus \Omega^{j,k}$, where $j+k=i$, into forms that have $j$ holomorphic parts and $k$ antiholomorphic parts. Then this is a bigraded chain complex with $\partial$ and $\bar \partial$. The Dolbeault cohomology $H^{i,j}(M)$ is the cohomology of this chain complex w/r/t $\bar \partial$.
hmm, okay
@MikeMiller i've heard that a secret way to compute cup product is to Poincare dualize everything, where the cup product is the intersection, and then dualize back to cohomology. prof, as an example, said that the two generators of the homology of a torus intersect transversely at one point. the cup product of the two generators of the cohomology class of the torus also takes the value 1 at the whole 2-simplex.
while this was very surprising, I couldn't make head or tails of it
@BalarkaSen That's what you're doing here, yes.
thus the confusion. But thanks for clearing it up!
if one is just doing contour integrals of integrands which are holomorphic on a branched surface, though, i'd think that'd make the antiholomorphic part irrelevant?
17:08
I don't know anything about that. I didn't say it was relevant... just that it was the complex version of de Rham
whereas de Rham has an interpretation in terms of "dualizing the space of smooth simplices in $M$", I don't think Dolbeault does. That's all I was saying.
fair enough. i just mean that, in that restricted setting (which I think would just be $\Omega^{1,0}$ if I'm reading that right), that notion of dualizing might still make sense
fun fact, poincare duality shows up in statistical mechanics in a rather straightforward way
(sorry, @PVAL, i pinged you earlier seeing your avatar hanging in the user panel, but the question i was supposed to ask has already been answered. apologies for the unnecessary ping)
alright
18:14
hi . is the inverse of $(\bar 3,\bar 4) $ in $\Bbb Z_{7}$x$\Bbb Z_{9}^*$ $ (\bar 4,\bar 7)$?
try multiplying them to check
(3+4,4*7) = ?
(0,1) but my book says the inverse is (5,7) :( so it is correct
maybe there's a typo somewhere
may it be $\Bbb Z_7^*$
@PVAL: How's your complex geometry?
18:19
Depends on the kind of complex geometry
@MikeMiller
i got another one. when finding the order of $(\bar 5,\bar 4) $ in $\Bbb Z_{12}x\Bbb Z_{25}^*$ is there easier way without finding $4^a\equiv1 (mod 20)$?
@PVAL: OK, here's the question. Given a closed complex manifold $M$, $\text{Aut}(M)$ is finite-dimensional. Proof: it's a closed subgroup of $\text{Diff}(M)$, hence a Lie group. We just need to show that its Lie algebra is finite-dimensional. One calculates that its Lie algebra is the algebra of holomorphic vector fields, and the space of holomorphic sections of $TM$ is finite-dimensional by the standard elliptic theory.
If one wants to mimic this proof for a closed almost complex manifold $(M,J)$ one runs into trouble. What is the Lie algebra when you don't have a notion of holomorphic vector fields? I suppose you could pick a connection $A$ and work with $\bar \partial_A$. Then you get a sequence $\Omega^{0,i}(TM)$ - but can we always pick a connection such that this is a complex, and then apply the elliptic theory?
And is the space of "holomorphic sections" still the Lie algebra?
@MikeMiller Thanks very much for your time on that discussion. I understood what Hatcher does and probably can use the "secret method" in computations too. (although not knowing how it works).
@BalarkaSen: It will be harder to do for anything higher-dimensional (other than special things like $\Bbb{P}^n$), though you should be able to do the exact same thing for any compact surface. No problem.
Well, there are 2-dimensional compact topological spaces other than manifolds out there. I am trying to do this by myself with the dunce cap.
I didn't think about higher-dimensional cases. I guess it will be harder, yeah.
18:29
Fair enough. You don't have a Poincare duality to make the general idea rigorous in general, but it's not bad as a philosophy.
I do not know off the top of my head. If $M$ is symplectic with $J$ a compatible acs, the obvious connection to try would be the LC-connection of $g(v,w)=\omega(v,Jw)$. This paper seems to answer the question in generality jstor.org/stable/1970219?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents
I guess he uses the word 'Lie group' here to mean finite-dimensional.
OK, so morally it's about the fact that this satisfies some elliptic PDE. Cool. Thanks.
@PVAL: Thanks a bunch, that was helpful.
19:33
I really like the use of 'morally' in mathematics
I have not seen it used before.
It just implies that there is some kernel of truth about why something is a theorem; some principle reason that is abstracted away from the technical details
Although there is a bit of "CT is the tr00 theory of everything 5eva", maybe.
CT?
From what I gather so far, it means "what properties the proof abused to make the theorem work".
That's a weird way to end an article.
19:52
@Boni I think the translation is "Cateogry Theory is the true theory of everything forever"
I can't wait for 'ethically' to start being used :P
20:06
Indeed, @Kevin.
Soon we'll be able to talk about a 'mathematical work ethic.'
Once the the moral foundations have been layed.
"We consider the quasiseparated ethical topos introduced by Someguy [SOM14] . . . "
</poorjoke>
Which one is may not be abelian. Orders:4,31,55,39,121. Since 4 and 121 prime square both abelian. 31 is prime so abelian. 55=5*11 and 39=3*13 abelian. So all of them abelian. İs it correct?
20:25
Is anyone here familiar with Soundararajan at all? Have a short question
did he write a text book?
Honestly, I'm not sure; although, I wouldn't be surprised if he has written a textbook. He has several papers.
what was your question?
The question is on a joint paper with Granville and Soundararajan; Extreme Values of $|\zeta(1+it)|$ at arxiv.org/abs/math/0501232
In one part, I think he is assuming $k$ to be a constant, although he never explicitly states this
The closest he comes to saying anything about it is: "take $z=k$ to be an integer in $(4.1)$..."
(and this statement is to specify $z$, not so much about $k$)
@MikeMiller Can you give me the brief pointers on the computation of the cohomology ring $H^*(\Bbb RP^2, \Bbb Z/2)$? I just followed up until where they considered inclusion $\Bbb RP^i \hookrightarrow \Bbb RP^n$ and $\Bbb RP^j \hookrightarrow \Bbb RP^n$, $i + j = n$, such that the two copies intersect transversely. There's a bunch of algebraic computations afterwards, which I can try to decipher tomorrow morning, but just wondering if you can give the geometric idea playing behind.
hi @Robert
20:36
@BalarkaSen hey!
I checked out your questions, I remember looking at them at some point.
I found the question I posted and the example I gave pretty cool.
I have a little homological algebra question, specifically about a result in Rotman's homological algebra book.
There's a bunch of other cool things I want to post there, but haven't got the time yet.
Yeah, I didn't look at your result, just the question, I want to try it again and I don't want your result to influence my approach
great!
@RobertCardona depending on the question, I might or might not help. I just did some basic chain complex stuff and Ext and Tor computations yesterday evening, and I'm content for now.
but fire away!
20:39
I'm trying to show $A \otimes \oplus_i B_i \cong \oplus (A \otimes B_i)$. I can define the $\rightarrow$ and prove it's well-defined in the standard way. The trick is then to define it's inverse.
Rotman defines it: $\theta : \oplus(A \otimes B_i) \to A \otimes (\oplus B_i)$.
but he says: $\theta : (a \otimes b_i) \mapsto (a \otimes \sum_i \lambda_i b_i)$
where $\lambda_i : B_k \to \oplus B_i$ is the standard injection.
My concern is that he defines in on a specific type of element.
An arbitrary element would look like $(a_i \otimes b_i)$, wouldn't it? By he assumes the first term will be $a$.
This would be page 87 of Rotman's introduction to homological algebra.
huh. it seems you are right. i'm confus.
hi, Balarka
surely an element of $\bigoplus (A \otimes B_i)$ will look like $(a_i \otimes b_i)$ where $a_i \in A$ and $b_i \in B_i$. that is, $a_i$'s needn't be the same.
hello, @Soham. it's late.
you should go to sleep. :P
up putting the finishing touches on the CS lab file.
sad life, this.
20:46
@SohamChowdhury, tell me about it. I double majored in math and computer engineering. Biggest regret. I should have just spend all my time doing math. Would have enjoyed it way more.
whoops, I meant $\Bbb RP^n$ instead of $\Bbb RP^2$ above.
everything except math is of course crap, @RobertCardona.
as the great Balarka has attested on countless occasions previously
well, I enjoy other things on the side: philosophy, history, anthropology, etc. but I don't like being forced to take time away from math.
20:48
whoops. this is a math chatroom. I should be careful about uncountability.
yeah. those things are nice to sort of fill out the time.
@Robert yeah, I was just joking. I like physics, but I just don't like to think about it by wasting my math times.
@BalarkaSen Again, like before. Pick the generator of $H_1(\Bbb{RP}^2;\Bbb Z/2)$. A cocycle that corresponds to $\text{Hom}(H_1(\Bbb{RP}^2;\Bbb Z/2),\Bbb Z/2)$ is, well, intersection with a (slightly moved) copy of that curve.
since we're working in $\Bbb Z/2$-coefficients we're just counting intersection points, not oriented intersection points.
not H^1. the graded ring.
I have already computed H^1.
Anyway, this slightly moved copy intersects transversely with the first one.
In one point./
So the cup square is 1.
The idea is identical to what you were doing with oriented surfaces.
20:50
yes. if $\alpha$ is a generator of $H^1(RP^2, \Bbb Z_2)$, then $\alpha \cup \alpha$ is generator of $H^2$.
So what's the question?
But I want to compute $H^*(\Bbb RP^n, \Bbb Z_2)$. the cohomology ring.
You said 2.
yeah, my bad.
5 mins ago, by Balarka Sen
whoops, I meant $\Bbb RP^n$ instead of $\Bbb RP^2$ above.
Ok, same idea. Intersecting with (transverse) copies of $\Bbb{RP}^{n-1}$ will give you copies of $\Bbb{RP}^{n-2}$ etc.
These correspond to generators.
20:53
ohh. now you do the thing with copies of P^{n-1} that just copies of RP^1. interesting.
@BalarkaSen, I think defining $\theta : (a_k \otimes b_k) \to \sum a_k \otimes \lambda_k b_k$ solved my problem, it's just a little messier.
right, that should be the correct map.
The obvious embedded copies of $\Bbb{RP}^{n-1}$ correspond to hyperplanes in $\Bbb R^{n+1}$. Take $n$ hyperplanes and intersect them. Generically, these will intersect in a line, i.e. a single point in $\Bbb{RP}^n$. So $\alpha^n$ - intersecting with copies of $\alpha$ $n$ times - is $1$
ah, that makes perfect sense! thanks, @Mike!
One needs some differential topology to make sense of "perturbing them so they intersect nicely"
20:56
yeah, heard of transversality. I am not trying to formalize this geometric picture -- just want to keep it at the back of my head while looking at Hatcher's algebraic proof.
ok, gotta sleep. g'night, everyone.
dunno what will happen to me in the ergodic nt talk tomorrow. probably will fall asleep.
anyways, bye!
See ya @BalarkaSen
Which one is may not be abelian. Orders:4,31,55,39,121. Since 4 and 121 prime square both abelian. 31 is prime so abelian. 55=5*11 and 39=3*13 abelian. So all of them abelian. Is it correct?
No.
How do you conclude that a group of order 55, eg, is abelian?
Yea all natural numbers have a decomposition as a product of prime, so $55 = 5*11$ isn't special
I think the problem there more specifically is that $11\equiv1\pmod5$, at least if I remember my Sylow theory correctly.
21:14
I saw a theorem which says p and q prime, p<q if order of G is pq G is not simple and if q not equiv to 1 mod p G is cyclic
İs this wrong
It's true. The last bit also doesn't apply here.
That is true, but how do you know a group of order $55$ is not simple?
Either way, as stated, $11\equiv1\pmod5$, so the statement doesn't apply (as Mike Miller said).
İt says not equiv to 1 ie 15=3x5 and 3 not equivilant to 1 mod 5
What does 15 have to do with anything? You said 55 and 39.
I see now sorry my bad :)
21:19
No worries.
Can u say why the order 39 is abelian please
Still not.
So there are 3 test for checking abelianity. order p, p^2 and the theorem above
@Clayton You might ask mixedmath if you see him in here. He does analytic number theory.
21:44
@Chris'ssistheartist It might be useful to note that $\frac1{\tan(x)}-\frac1x =\sum\limits_{k=1}^\infty\left(\frac1{x+k\pi}+\frac1{x-k\pi}\right)$
@robjohn Yes, for that problem, indeed.
@robjohn You refer to the problem with the nth derivative?
@Chris'ssistheartist For the other problem, I can show that $\frac{\log(a_n)}{n}\to0$ but I have nothing yet for $\frac{\log(a_n)}{\log(n)}$
@robjohn Really? How do you relate the coefficients? For instance, how do you show that $\frac{\log(a_n)}{n}\to0$?
@Chris'ssistheartist the sum inside the exp has a natural boundary at $|z|=1$.
The radius of convergence is $\frac1R=\limsup\limits_{n\to\infty}|a_n|^{1/n}$
@robjohn Yeah. I had something else in mind.
21:51
@Chris'ssistheartist That would be good, because I don't know if this gets us anywhere.
@robjohn Some info on OEIS: oeis.org/A118393
I'm out.
22:11
@Chris'ssistheartist guess I am not sure what the eigenvectors of the triangles are. See you later.
22:24
Is it true that if G is a group of order 72 there must be a subgroup of order 4 and 27
Hello Guys!
I'm new.
Can someone help me on an interesting problem I stumbled on a blog?
You should go ahead and post the problem and if someone can/wants to help they will
@KevinDriscoll I did.
@KevinDriscoll Besides, even if someone helps on there, I think it's better to have someone guide me if they are willing to, if not, the post couldn't hurt.
22:41
I mean posting in chat
@KevinDriscoll they are too simple I think and yes/no questions. Do I need to open a question for that?
Essentially nothing is too simple for posting on main
23:11
Ok. I wont write to the chat again. Sorry.
23:46
that's right, the great Enjoys Math needs help.
:D
How do you get the formula $\left [\frac{x}{a} \right ]$?
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