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00:01
So ends a satisfying day on MSE...
It seems others have had the same idea...
I find it hilarious. What is this picture?
http://jimbopracticalproject.blogspot.com/2011_02_01_archive.html
Cool, thanks. @robjohn
@SrivatsanNarayanan I had made my gravatar in response to a comment by t.b. If you look at my profile, there is a link called The Mean Square which links to t.b.'s comment
I just spent a bit of time seeing if it had made it to Google images yet.
That's when I ran across the one I just posted.
00:16
:)

Yes, I ran across that comment earlier.
off to walk the dog. cul8r
@JM After reading a few pages of Jim Belk's answer, I realize my omission. I'll add it once I've read all the answers.
00:42
@SrivatsanNarayanan: you wanted to ask me something about literature some time ago. I'd have time now.
@tb Oh yes, sorry about that. So I and a couple of friends are trying to read this book:
First off, something about our backgrounds.
None of us have taken a course in functional analysis. We have done some analysis courses.
But, I would like to understand (parts of ) the contents
Okay. This certainly covers some pretty advanced stuff.
E.g., things like hypercontractive inequalities keep coming up from time to time. I have a vague understanding of it, but I'm not that happy with it.
I haven't read the book, but I know the author, of course.
I think the book is good, but I(we) do not always get the full picture.
So I do not get the intuition clearly at places.
Well, my question would be this: do you know of any books that takes a similar perspective (i.e., inequalities), but tries to explain the intuition behind these things more?
W.r.t. the background, I recognize that we could be lacking, but at least 2 of us are planning (as of now) to take a functional analysis course next semester (I am not even sure if that's relevant).
00:56
The motivation to study these inequalities certainly derives from functional analysis, but I doubt that an ordinary introductory course will cover these things.
In any case, I did not post this as a question in the site, because, as you can perhaps already infer, it's a little vague. I cannot put my finger on something and say: this is what I want.
To be honest, this is a bit far away from my comfort zone. If I understand the motivation for these things correctly, you can encode most of the spaces that arise in practice using some weighted sequence spaces (Besov spaces) and interesting operators between them then have certain summability properties to which you can apply these inequalities, then.
Hmmm, not sure I follow it. :)
[In any case, while trying to explain it to you, I realize I cannot even state my intention clearly. I guess this is a byproduct of trying to skip pre-requisites and jump to the "interesting" stuff. Maybe, I will wrestle with the book a bit more and see.]
Heh. At the park with the dog:-)
I assume that the book mentions some of the necessary background in the introduction, so that might be a good place to start.
Then I'd suggest having a look at the book on function spaces by Triebel, which I often heard as a recommendation for such things.
Finally, a book I like that treats some of the topics is the book by Albiac and Kalton, topics in Banach space theory.
But all those books assume a decent background in functional analysis (not very advanced) but still more than you can pick up in, say, a few weeks.
01:09
Ok, I understand.
I guess they were right when they said there are no shortcuts.
:)
(Just kidding.)
Having a look at the books.
I think of all those, Albiac-Kalton would be the one I'd recommend the most. However, it is hard for me to tell if that's really what you're looking for. Probably I'm just the wrong person to ask. What I can do, however: a friend of mine uses these things in his work on numerical analysis. Maybe he knows some nice down to earth motivations that could give you the motivations that you're looking for, I'll ask him about it when I next see him, and get back to you in the next few days.
Thanks for the offer. That said, if you find my "question" too vague (I assume it is), then please feel free to ignore it.
I'll ask a better question as and when we come to them.
Actually, then I can even post it on the main site.
Out of curiosity: what led you to pick up that book and say we want to learn that material?
I think I addressed this tangentially somewhere above. If there's one thing in that book I want to learn, that would be about hypercontractive inequalities.
01:25
Okay, I'll make sure to mention that key-word to my friend. At the moment I don't think I can give you any good pointers on that.
It's of use in (T)CS, but I find the inequality kind of cryptic, and the motivation a bit sketchy.
I am not sure that's the best resource if we want to learn just that.
Anyway...
Thank you very much, Theo.
No problem, you're welcome of course :) From your background and your motivation, you might be better off asking about applications and motivations on cstheory.SE instead of here. Maybe those people could give some pointers that are closer to your interests.
Ah, that's a good idea.
In any case, I will give myself some time, even to ask a question.
01:41
back from the park.
Welcome back!
Welcome, @robjohn.
Is this walk in the park a daily affair?
It is cold and dark outside. I've put a fire in the fireplace.
@SrivatsanNarayanan it is. My dog gets a couple of walks each day.
I am actually thinking of getting a pet. Kind of a revolutionary thought, by my family's standards.
i've had cats and dogs my whole life. Even had a toucan for 15 years.
01:44
O_o
@anon: don't you hate it when they change the question?
@robjohn: Yes! I had to scramble to salvage the three upvotes I got for solving the original question. Looks like Sivaram has a slicker answer though. (Though his goes into complex analysis territory.)
@anon: I was at the park, perusing MSE for a bit and I saw that question. I thought, "Oh boy, I can answer that one!" but then I saw that you had already answered it. :-(
They can at least post it as an addendum, instead of modifying the question like that.
yeah
I should check to see if I can think of a third proof for it. :-p
01:51
Actually, in this case, it so happens that the original integral is also quite interesting, and requires a nontrivial trick.
@robjohn: see if you can do anything by parts, that might work. haven't thought about it.
02:07
Hmm. I just got a Disciplined badge for deleting an answer of score 3. Do I get to keep it even if I edited and then undeleted the answer?
@anon, From what I understand, badges are never taken away
 
1 hour later…
03:22
@JackSchmidt I have a question regarding ideals; it is well known that if I,J are ideals then the set of all products xy where x \in I and y \in J is not necessarily an ideal
My idea is that it suffices to show that somehow adding two elements in the set will not give us one of the form xy
So if I consider the principal ideals (x-1) = I and J = (x), then x^2(x)(x-1) + 1.x.x = x(x^3 - x^2 +1), I think this is not in the set of all pairs xy, x \in I and y \in J
Sorry for the bad notation I should not have used x earlier to say x \in I
04:09
The proof argument above is not right.
04:29
@BenjaminLim: if both I and J are principal and in a commutative ring, then IJ is the set of products ij: Proof if I=Rx and J=Ry, then two typical elements of IJ are (rx)(sy) and (tx)(uy), adding these together we get rxsy+txuy = rsxy+tuxy= ((rs+tu)x)(1y).
@BenjaminLim: however if both I and J are not principal, or if the ring is not commutative, then this breaks and IJ is just sums of various ij.
@BenjaminLim: my grammar is poor (night time here): if I is principal, but J is not, then IJ is still the set of ij, as long as the ring is commutative. same proof works basically.
Anybody who can spare some time?
might as well just ask
Is it possible to create a algebraic expression to get the answer "rakesh"
without traces in the question
Why do you want that?
@BenjaminLim: however in the ring Z[x], (2,x)*(2,x) has elements like 4+x^2 that don't factor
04:34
To surprise the friend :P
You want some crazy algebraic expression that reduces to your friends name. Buh.
...whose name is Rakesh. Ah.
(gnight)
@JackSchmidt good night
04:34
Good night, Jack.
(actually it's noon where I am)
Its morning here
@Amit: Somewhat luckily for you, the name has no duplicated letters. On the other hand, I'm not terribly fond of manipulating six-variable algebraic expressions by hand myself.
@JM LOL
It looks to be too much trouble for a surprise.
nvm
PS: Im 13, so i don't want to go through so much trouble :P
04:47
Something peculiar here. Try to mouse over the checkmark in joriki's answer.
@JM January 00:00!!
Check the date.
LOL
that reminds me of when the timestamps on the entire site reversed for like 5 minutes
I don't remember it even being discussed, but I made a comment and it's the only evidence left that I know of
05:14
I wonder how many people named "anon" are in m.SE right now... I see four registered ones, and the unregistered ones can't be searched for.
Heh, that must be in light of the recent question by another anon.
any idea what that OP means by det(M ^ M)?
I'm not that experienced with wedge products myself. How does one take a wedge product of two matrices?
As I understand it, it doesn't return a matrix but an element of T^1(M_nxn(R)), so it doesn't make sense to take a determinant of it...
Unless there is some other notion of determinant that could be parlayed...
oh duh, a^a=0 for all a
as Jyrki noted. but still, we can speak of A^B
05:30
anon, maybe you should turn your comment here into an answer.
wrong url, but I know what you refer to. was expecting someone else to but ill do something quick.
Whoops, good thing you got what I meant.
Hey mix.
Hello all
@mixedmath Hi
Is anyone here familiar with the Azimuth Project? (John Baez and his attempt to save the world, in a nutshell)
05:36
Read about it only after that "powers for good" question.
Ah - I wonder if that's what started me on about it
I forgot how I first ran across it, but I began to read some of the things there
You're joining?
I'm uncertain - I'd like to know more about it
I also don't really know what I'd do - but I like the idea of collaborative projects, save-the-world-oriented or not
It's always fun to be doing stuff with other people, true.
Mornin' all
05:43
Hey t.b.!
@tb Morning
bleeh, I just wasted half an hour writing up an answer for this keyhole contour question, but apparently OP was satisfied with a very complicated solution...
@mixedmath As a mathematician, what about the Azimuth Project do you find attractive?
People, people. Why isn't Robert Israel answer here (math.stackexchange.com/questions/75981/…) not getting any upvotes?
Well, Srivatsa, that's part of the problem - I've always liked the idea of doing something useful, but I do number theory
and that's about as ivory tower as they come
@t.b. Post it anyway. Look at what happened to Hans when he followed my suggestion... ;)
@Sri: the first upvote was mine.
...and I see you're adopting anon's style :)
@mix: apart from crypto, what do you think is number theory really good for, practically speaking? (Of course, answer only if you need the practical justification.)
Honestly, I don't think much about the practical implications of what I do. I comfort myself by doing other things on the side that I find more relevant to the world.
(I think I saw yayu first using it)
@J.M. Red, blue... It was rather inviting. :)
@t.b. I guess I wasn't in that day... sorry. :)
@mix: sounds good. You could say your "hobbies" are "work" and vice-versa... ;)
Oh @Sri... neat job collapsing that product.
@tb Your answer there looks great.
Wanted to say that personally now that you brought it up.
Which one, @J.M.? The (1+tan i) question?
05:55
ah crap. t.b. was known for coloring before me.
@Sri: Yep. That's the one where you Gaussed the product, no?
[By the way, does @JM work for notification purposes?]
@Sri: I didn't hear a buzzing sound for that last one...
nothing new under the sun, I guess
05:58
Yes, the same old Gauss trick.
@anon Funny how your comment makes sense for the Gauss trick as well.
I totally planned that
With math.SE, we're more or less taking tricks from each other, no?
Ok, because @tb mentioned that '@tb' works for him (EDIT: in chat), but not '@t.b.'
@JM What are you alluding to?
@t.b.: Zev's recent question.
06:02
@Srivatsan: I wasn't pinged by your last comment and I was never pinged by an @t.b. in chat)
Perhaps last comment was a bit funny since I used @tb too many times.
Okay, apparently none of us knows how to ping people with dots...
Were you pinged now?
nope
I give up. I guess I will just wait for the other person to show up in the chat window. :)
06:05
@tb
hmm, interesting
@J.M. I still didn't follow your "tricks" comment. What about Zev's series question?
We're picking up skills from each other due to math.SE, no?
Agreed. (And mehopes that's a good thing.)
See how I picked up the "methinks" from you :)
re: Zev's question, I was convincing t.b. to post his answer for the keyhole contour anyway, at least for pedagogy's sake.
Oh yes, he should really post his answer.
There're other readers besides the OP anyway, who'll be happy to see better answers.
@J.M. By the way, why doesn't the site enforce a minimum delay before the OP can accept an answer? There's one for bounties (2 days, I believe).
06:15
I don't know either.
On the other hand, if it's one of those "duh" questions, I'd say a quick acceptance would make sense...
06:33
@JM: can you explain this comment to me?
(I won't post the keyhole answer, sorry)
@t.b. To be honest, with Mike, I don't really know. I can't read that guy.
Me neither... Perhaps he was accusing me of lack of humor :)
btw. did you see this exchange between him and Didier?
That was Esperanto... right?
(Otherwise, I'm likely missing a gag.)
yeah Esperanto it was. This may help
Like I said, I can't read him. If he's trying to be funny, I'm apparently not the intended audience...
(In other news, I learned only today that there's an online archive of Crelle's Journal.)
06:44
Oh, yes, but that's even more annoying than jstor and sciencedirect together...
I'm not a fan of the interface, sure... :)
I generally don't have cookies allowed, and jstor likes to redirect you to /cookieabsent with no trace of the link you wanted to visit.
On the other hand, I'm glad about its existence. :)
I am beginning to forget whatever little I know. What's a mnemonic again?
:)
@Srivatsan a device such as a pattern of letters, ideas, or associations that assists in remembering something.
(Oxford Dictionary of American English)
Like "SOHCAHTOA" for those trigonometric ratios...
06:49
Mike seems to use that word a lot.
Maybe he wants to remember a lot of things.
And the usage doesn't seem to fit whatever meaning I associate to it.
No, @J.M., I am talking about his comment under Doug's answer.
"Doug was simply creating a MNEMONIC, for crying out loud."
And apparently, carrots aren't beneficial to eyesight. Who knew? :)
Actually, the carotenoids are in fact good for eyesight. But not too much of them, since they accumulate in fat.
But getting back to the math... "I don't think it means what you think it means".
"Convenient fiction" is the term I'm accustomed to for those sort of things.
@tb Reg. your comment on the ||f||_p question. Won't the conclusion depend on the measure of the whole space?
(Read my comment under yours: math.stackexchange.com/questions/76016/.)
Is this too cheeky, or should I add more?
Ack, I see that Didier added the same thing as a comment.
07:04
That answers the question, so I guess that much is enough.
@SrivatsanNarayanan: I already corrected into counting measure before seeing your question here.
@robjohn I might throw in the magic word "HINT:" for extra safety though.
@SrivatsanNarayanan Good idea, done.
Ok, sorry, missed your correction @tb.
@robjohn B is a basis for the set X, It is defined that T is a topology generated by B: A subset U of X is in T if for each x in U there is basis element C such that x is in C and C is a subset of U. How to prove that T is a topology on X?
07:15
@Ramana: Which part is causing you trouble?
Proving that Finite intersection of elements in T is again in T
the intersection of the elements of any finite sub collection of T is in T
@Ramana Do you know when a particular set B forms a basis for some topology?
That condition might be helpful here.
@RamanaVenkata Sorry, I was afk. Did Srivatsan's comment answer your question?
@robjohn No I am still waiting for answer
07:32
@Ramana Can you state that condition for us?
1.for each x in X there is a basis element which contains x
2.if x is in intersection of two basis elements B_1, B_2 then there is basis element B_3 containing x which belongs to B such that B_3 is a subset of intersection of B_1, B_2
Let U and V subsets of X be in T. For each x in U \cap V, can you find a W so that x \in W \in B?
using what you've just said?
Doesn't that solve the problem then? @Ramana
it solves I missed out a small logic Anyway Thanks
07:42
You're welcome, of course.
Welcome indeed. :-)
07:56
Another question where the OP accepted too soon IMO: math.stackexchange.com/questions/76018.
Well, I'm sure Bill will post a nice hint sometime later :)
In the current answer, there's an extraneous "a" . It's not clear at all what this a means, and how to pick it
I'm not sure if he (the OP) actually understands what he wants to do. That's why I was hemming and hawing a bit when I answered his question on the SVD...
@tb Ah, Bill... I haven't seen his classic hints in a while.
what does OP stand for?
08:01
Any of "original post" or "original poster".
Srivatsan, if I may ask something personal: where are you studying in America?
(I'm just watching, not voting)
Not that it means anything to you. (Or to me. :))
No really, I do think Srivatsan's comment there is a good answer to that question...
@J.M. Perhaps someone will actually write a good answer to the question, making the comment bite the dust. It will be like Clarke's First Law coming back to bite it's own tail.
494 new messages, well done guys ) I think I won't read it
08:13
@J.M. To elaborate on the previous answer, I study at Carnegie-Mellon in Pittsburgh.
u-hu, with this extremely light answer I'm about 10 upvotes for the first time
yeah
maybe I will even get the badge for it - it would be funny )
@SrivatsanNarayanan: good time of the day. Which time is on your clocks now?
Actually, two badges: Nice answer and Enlightened.
@Gortaur: there you go, enlightened ))
6
08:16
4.15AM
@SrivatsanNarayanan: then good morning
Oh my, yet one more night without sleep.
@tb oh thanks. I wonder who of you guys did it
Not me. I was just commenting that I cannot help you since I already upvoted that post.
@SrivatsanNarayanan CM... neat!
08:18
@tb I read in Russian news that there was a blow-up in Switzerland, like 1 man died - is it true? I failed to find it in English google
though maybe 'blow-up' is not the right translation. fortunately, I don't know the right one
(@J.M. Several comments back, I made a mistake, one that I never imagined making. It's Carnegie Mellon, without the hyphen. I guess it's the sleep.)
@Gortaur So do you stay(study) in Russia?
"Since the real numbers are a field, they are trivially a Dedekind domain, aren't they?" <-- this sounds incorrect to me but I don't have the algebraicNT to say why.
@Gortaur It's the bike shed, my friend. It's the bike shed.
@SrivatsanNarayanan I did my BSc and first year of MSc in Maths
@Gortaur: yes, there was an explosion in Yverdon-les-Bains with 1 dead and 14 injured. Doesn't look nice, but they don't know yet what happened.
08:25
@tb doesn't look nice
@JM what does it mean?
@Gortaur I was more interested in the time zone. :) But thanks for the info anyway.
@SrivatsanNarayanan a ))
@Gortaur You'll want to see this.
@SrivatsanNarayanan there is a joke 'don't ask Russian how is he doing if you don't want to listen how crappy was his breakfast' fair enough I would say
3
@JM icic
@anon: I think this depends on the author. The usual condition is vacuous for fields, because every non-zero proper ideal... However, I've seen authors explicitly exclude fields.
08:28
@t.b. Would you say the comment here (math.stackexchange.com/questions/75091/…) is accurate?
(by mathemagician to Doug's answer)
@tb, So is the answer either trivially true, or trivially false, depending on the author's taste? ;)
I'm cleaning the table.... the cleaning liquid smells like vodka.... so hard to... resist..
@tb He's in the same boat. I can't read him either.
@Gortaur As long as you don't start quaffing the cleaning fluid, you're fine.
Well, I don't know, but it seems to me to say that you have unique prime factorization because there are no primes to talk about is a bit of a stretch, isn't it?
I do believe there was an m.SE answer expressing exactly that. Let me check...
08:34
@tb Actually, no primes => no factorization, right?
I agree with Sri. Additionally, I think an auxillary concern with the comment is that the idealic structure of a ring is not the same as the original ring itself, so s/he's not really addressing real numbers directly but rather an algebraic generalization of sorts...
I'm generally not in favor of emptysetology
I remember that day where a lot of m.SE questions were about empty sets...
Nihilism?
@tb no, maybe because there is only one empty set as someone use to say
08:39
I think you were the one who first noticed that day, t.b.
@JM to be honest, some alcoholic in Russia drink glass-cleaning liquid because it's the cheapest alcohol. some of them go blind or dies because there can be metil in this liquid mixed with etil
@Gortaur: I know and I understand; some people here go blind from their moonshine, too. Improper distillation and all that.
icic, depends on the moonshine
heh, didn't see J.M. already got it
08:49
got what?
@anon And to think I actually spent 5-6 minutes going over all comments.
the link
I was looking for tb's comment: "Is today the official empty set day or what?"
Oh. Thank Google for that... :)
anon, Actually, even more funny is this. I was imagining that it was JM who posted that comment. So I was looking everywhere for his comments.
@J.M. Same personal question.
Your "location" says Kalakhang Maynila.
09:00
@Sri: I've long been gone from the academe. :)
That's essentially the local translation of where I am. :)
No, I couldn't even recognize the city at first
Then a bit of googling tells me it is possibly Manila.
In English, that would be "Metropolitan Manila".
Oh, ok.
I do recognize Manila to be the capital of Philippines.
Yes indeed.
Well, ok. Just wanted to confirm, that's all.
09:05
No problem. :)
Learning about Philippines now. From wikipedia. :)
Meanwhile, I need to step out for drinking water. See you guys later.
Ok, see you.
09:35
no new questions for 2 hours
09:54
@Gortaur I just completed a thought by Mike Spivey. I was going to make it a comment, but it was too long.
Not a new question, but it's something to look at if you're bored.
10:34
@robjohn I'm not bored ) how are you (that is not the question about the bore)?
I'm doing okay.
Glad you're not bored :-)
That was a pretty sweet 100 rep you made.
indeed
@robjohn have you ever played in Tetris or Supercontra?
I've played Tetris, but never heard of Supercontra.
@robjohn have yo ever saw 'Saw'?
I've never really been interested in watching it. So no.
10:41
then you my like that one
Bill Gates vs Crazy Prof
Such marvelous sound effects :-)
aha
I really liked the moment with I Explorer
Windows to the rescue.
I was browsing this book by Kolmogorov, just curious is there a typo in this lemma?
@JackSchmidt I realised the fact that I had been trying this out with principal ideals, so could not see why IJ would not be an ideal... The basic idea in my head (though this may seem wild) is like when you have the tensor product of two vector spaces V,W it is not necessarily true that every element in here is of the form v \tensor w where v \in V and w \in W.
10:48
At the second to last line of the proof of Lemma 1 the index for the B_{qj} sets starts at j=2, not j=1. Is there a reason for that?
11:02
Because B_{q_1} \subset A_{m+1}
Oh whoops, thanks robjohn.
the fall of MSE
chat works
I can't see my profile!
I can't see questions!
if people will ping MSE now it won't rise )
Oh, the humanity!
11:06
so don't press F5 tooooo often )
@Gortaur what happened?
@robjohn I've found the Ring
seriously: I don't know, sometimes it happens
I saw it once before I beleive
Last time, I lost some postings.
one at least
orly?
It's back!
11:16
it's up )
11:44
@robjohn Were you the one that used Murky for Mercurial? I have downloaded it an it immediately crashes when I open it on 10.7.
Hmm. I am running 10.5, but I haven't heard anything about problems, but I haven't been looking.
@BenjaminLim That is a very good idea indeed. If V has dimension 1, then every tensor is "simple", but if V has dimension 2, then there are v⊗w + v⊗w guys. Same thing happens with polynomials: in k[x,y] and (x,y)*(x,y) you get xx+yy. Replace x by v, y by w, and times by otimes, and it is nearly exactly the same.
@BenjaminLim In fact, the tensors form a polynomial ring, one variable per basis element. In the regular tensor algebra the variables don't commute (non-commutative polynomial rings). In the "symmetric algebra", you set it up so they do commute and you get a regular old polynomial ring.
Hmm, seems like more people have problems with it.
12:31
@JonasTeuwen with what/
@robjohn are you here?
@Gortaur With Murky (an OS X app for Mercurial).
12:48
@JonasTeuwen wth is Mercurial?
A VCS.
(Versioning Control System).
for collaborative writing?
For example.
I use it to also store the old versions, so that if I wake up in the morning and wonder why monkey abused my keyboard last night, then I can rollback.
you maybe should buy another monkey
ah, so for windows it's tortoise
I'm currently using it
i'm on wiki-rage!

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