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12:38 AM
Good evening mathSE
1:37 AM
Good evening mixedmath!
2 hours later…
3:43 AM
Man - you know that feeling where you make a small outline because you don't want to wander on a question, but then it still turns out to be way longer than expected?
I just made my longest answer yet - perhaps even Arturo (whose answers I highly respect - it is magical how often he manages to give long, thorough answers before anyone else answers) would think it is too long.
2 hours later…
5:16 AM
lol, I've never had that happen to me... >.>
2 hours later…
7:35 AM
@mixedmath Are you referring to that linear algebra answer? That's not that long...
7:51 AM
@Asaf - It's a lot longer than I had expected it to be. But it's true, it's nowhere near the longest here.
Say - what question has the longest answer that you remember?
@mixedmath Something I wrote, or in general?
8:22 AM
Oohh, fancy. data.SE - this is new to me.
What is correct English: "Further we have that ... <equation>" or "Futhermore we have that ... <equation>"?
@mixedmath Seriously? It's one of the best tools of the SE network.
Shame it gets updated only once every two months.
@Asaf I see that. I feel so behind.
oh - that's too bad, but it's full of incredible things
@mixedmath Quite so. Although I wish they had a chat related query. I have no idea how close I am to chat related badges, and from time to time I actually find interest in that.
@Jonas: I think they're equivalent, but I prefer furthermore. It's always an adverb, and I don't like guessing parts of speech (further can sometimes be an adjective, and thank goodness you didn't ask about moreover ;p)
8:28 AM
Well, I wrote "Further" and someone commented it might be a grammar mistake and that I should ask a native speaker.
@mixedmath: Didn't you want to ask something deep about the axiom of choice?
I mean, I am going to have to finish this assignment if no one asks anything!
@AsafKaragila Can I do PDE without AC?
@JonasTeuwen I don't think set theorists can, or even allowed, to do PDE. So we don't really care.
Also, probably not. You need at least DC to develop most analysis.
Who is forbidding them to do PDE?
Their high intellect.
Just like it developed morality in humans, in contrast to cockroaches.
8:31 AM
I think they just don't do it because they are not capable enough.
Asaf, what is this big assignment you've been working on. This is the one that you were to turn in a few weeks back?
It's a final assignment for this course I took in advanced topics in set theory.
8 highly nontrivial questions.
If I had the two months for it, I'd have finished. Sadly, however, I had an exam and to grade exams in this course I TA'd...
Oh dear. Perhaps I should start thinking of AC questions -
Well, I have only one last subquestion.
Which is essentially to give a summarize of the proof Magidor's covering lemma based on Magidor's proof for Jensen's covering lemma. It's not hard, nor long. I'm just so exhausted that I stare at the Texmaker vacantly and do nothing.
Maybe you should install emacs, that should help.
8:37 AM
Well, it is somewhat hard, and it has some details in it. However I'm sure that in two hours of work I could actually finish this.
@JonasTeuwen I don't think so. I already have it installed.
Then it is even easier, just open it. I would get frustrated if I had to use texmaker as well.
I'm actually enjoying the Texmaker very much.
Well, you know what they say...
"Revenge is a dish best served by dinosaurs with lasers."
I have never heard someone saying that...
8:42 AM
You don't read SMBC closely enough.
I love that! I'm being inundated by great things -
sat morn, data.se (Qiaochu has a crazy vote/question ratio given how many answers he's given, btw)
And all because of me.
If only I had chatted with you before. If only.
Careful what you wish for... :P
I don't feel like my thesis and I'm already using emacs.
8:48 AM
How can you feel like your thesis? Is your thesis a nuclear powered madman with a cannon on its chest, and heart as black as coal?
Well... That might be the case as well.
Alright gentlemen - It's about that time. Good night.
Good night.
8:51 AM
Interesting. About fifth of the traffic in this chatroom is me.
[chuckles] Indeed. :P
@AsafKaragila Where do you see that? data.se?
Probably just estimates it.
@JonasTeuwen No, the room info says about 4200 messages, my chat user info says I wrote about 850 in here.
Ahhh...I see. :P
9:00 AM
I'm going back to bed.
Or, whatever.
9:39 AM
Hi everybody!
1 hour later…
11:08 AM
Asaf Karagila has been automatically appointed as owner of this room.
11:44 AM
@StackExchange Oh my, we're doomed! :D
@JonasTeuwen I would have said "Furthermore..." but the second one's better sounding to the ear, otherwise.
@JM Doooooooooooooooooooooomed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
=)) Well damn, you really are now König Asaf; do you have a ring we're supposed to kiss or anything? :P
What do you mean by König?
Oh the literal translation :-)
It's German for "king".
I thought about the mathematician, who tried to prove that all cardinalities are equal, but ended up misreading Bernstein's thesis and proving something most useful.
11:55 AM
Well, the guy has a regal name...
12:36 PM
Asaf is our ruler now?!
Like I said... we're doomed. :D
I will rule this chat with an iron clad!
Anyone who disobeys me gets stirfried!
user image
First order of business, everyone has to ask about the axiom of choice and cardinals twice a day. :-P
12:48 PM
And no analysis is allowed!
Why not?
Also, all chatters will have to drink at least three shots of arak a week.
You are not a very good ruler, Asaf.
I predict riots.
I predict leading them myself.
You will riot against yourself?
12:50 PM
Do you see any other tyrant here?
Not really.
@JonasTeuwen: Next time you enlarge my braces, don't forget to stretch the pipe too...
1 hour later…
2:15 PM
I've been spoiled by MathJax; I was answering this question: programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/101163 and found myself thinking "golly it would be nice if this place had MathJax"...
Traitor :P
5 hours later…
7:18 PM
We really are doomed...what with Asaf leading riots against himself and all that... >.>
8:02 PM
if anyones here, I was wondering if someone would be kind enough to suggest to me a good set theory text (for a relative beginner). They don't seem to offer many (if any) courses on the subject that I can take in school but I want to get at least a decent amount of it down before studying some other subjects too in depth. Thanks
8:19 PM
@Deven My experiences with set theory have been a bit limited - I either picked it up in some analysis class, topology class, or somewhere else related to set theory
but if you sent a message to Konig Asaf, I'm sure he'd love your distraction.
Make sure to ask for one with the AC covered in it - he'll appreciate that.
rofl alright, I'll hit him up later
& yeah, thats essentially what you do here to pick it up in analysis etc etc.
but its the summer before my first classes in proof based maths, I kinda want to do a little set theory on my own before I head back to school
There was this thread about this.
I think.
'll search for it
Fast on the draw there!
Ok, I actually found a few suggestions in a few different threads
I might have to go to the library and take a look at a few of these to decide which I will like best
8:24 PM
Oh. I thought about yunone's intermediate text thread.
Yeah I saw it, you reccomend a book by azriel levy I think
& recommend that Jechs may be too advanced lol
You might wanna follow his original premise and go with Enderton's.
I will check it out
actually I have to leave right now through >< but thanks for the suggestions
I do not know the book, though. I do think that Levy's book should be good for a basic introduction.
I'll take a lok at both Endertons and Levy
thanks man
ill probably be back later cya guys
8:30 PM
8:41 PM
Hi! Is someone here acquainted with the notion of graph entropy?
Not I - is it exciting?
Entropy sounds physical.
One of the guys in my office is researching in alg. graph theory, perhaps he knows about it. Although it might not be the case, since I have no idea what graph entropy is.
Well, I guess it was somewhat exciting at first, but now that I'm writing about it it rapidly stopped being that exciting
Asaf: There's some chance he might have heard it. It's used in some algorithms, as far as I know
I'm writing a note in which I expose three definitions of graph entropy, and prove their equivalence. The only proof I have of one equivalence is the paper that originally defined the concept of graph entropy, and it's rather hard to read. It even defers some details of the proof to an impossible-to-find hungarian journal...
My question for him would be: "Is there a better and comprehensive treatment of the subject, or should I continue hunting for papers?"
Asaf, I was about to edit a post when I forgot the Latex-friendly way of writing < and >, as in something generated by the element a, <a>
oh, langle rangle
9:04 PM
I wonder why detexify spits out symbols in opposite score order
That was very stupid. That just means that higher score -> lesser chance of a match.
Why the bias against the inverse order?
Since they were numbers between 0 and 1 I was wondering "hey that must be the probability that the listed symbol is the correct one!"
9:22 PM
Why not probability for mistake?
that's what the brain said a moment later :P
unfortunately, hands did already the typing
9:42 PM
Oh man, this coffee is gonna be strong.
That makes for some strong theorem's, I've heard
theorems, even - I don't know what the theorems have
I sure hope so. I really really really really have to finish this assignment already :D
I figured a spoon and a half instead of one, then I saw there was but a small spoon left. So I'm drinking about 2.5 times the normal strength.
Mmmm... rich Colombian taste.
Dammit. This thread about the independence of the ordering principle from the axiom of choice is so tantalizing. I can't look away.
10:22 PM
bye, good night!
@Explorer What's up?
nothing really. i just wanted to ask how you type those equations?
We use a typesetting called LaTeX, by a plugin called MathJax installed on math.SE
I believe it is only installed on cstheory.SE or physics.SE as well, and not on the rest of the network.
aha, and why I cannot type them? should install a special plugin?
10:31 PM
Type them where? On English.SE?
The plugin is server side, there is no actual install on your computer for that.
No, I mean I cannot type them like that as an answer on math.SE
Ah. Of course you can.
You use $ to start and end the environment, and type math formulae inside. $$ would start it in a centered newline, and allow limits to be written nicely (actually above/below the symbols)
At worse case you can always type it "badly" and leave a comment request for help on the markup.
But take a look at this:
@AsafKaragila Isn't it like midnight where you are?
@Explorer if you send me a link to the problematic question, I'll take a look
@WillieWong Almost 2am
So what? I've had plenty of coffee, and I am actually getting work done on that assignment I was supposed to submit 16 days ago.
10:40 PM
Wait, the same one you were working on two days ago?
Tsk tsk.
Yeah. I am literally without powers of concentration. It took me two days to understand what I am supposed to actually write.
Had I been well rested and concentrated I could have done that in three hours or so.
@Explorer I found the question you are referring to, and the display looks okay on my end. Which operating system are you running, and which browser are you using?
Q: $f(x+1)=f(x)+1$ and $f(x^2)=f(x)^2$

DijkschneierA function that satisfies both $f(x+1)=f(x)+1$ and $f(x^2)=f(x)^2$ for all real $x$ is known to be the identity over $\mathbb Q$, but is it also the identity over $\mathbb R$? If not, can you provide me an example of such a function? Thanks.

Works fine here, that question.
@WillieWong Windows 7 & FF 5.0
10:42 PM
Are you sure about that? FF6 came out just today.
At least on my Linux....
FF 8??? Really? Isn't that in like pre pre beta?
Also known as alpha...
eh? hang on a second
@AsafKaragila there are two pre's. A set theorist should be able to figure out that that is the one before alpha
what is 8?
10:44 PM
@WillieWong Impossible. That's like x\in\varnothing!!!!! :)
@Explorer 8 is 1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1=2+2+2+2=2x2x2=4x2=4+4=7+1
@AsafKaragila That's precisely what I meant. I don't think 8 even exists as a concept yet....
@WillieWong It's on nightly.
That means alpha.
Aurora means beta.
I think you've drunk too much coffee.
I'm always like that :)
@AsafKaragila Oh, why are they working on two major version numbers ahead of the current released one? That's like against all reasonable software development practices I've heard about.
10:47 PM
Unless I'm drunk out of my mind. Then I'm like that with more typos.
@WillieWong They went to "Chrome" development model. Work really hard and release a version every couple of months.
@AsafKaragila The Chrome model is already plenty stupid in my opinion. The fact that they are spending energy on an alpha release when the previous version is still in beta just makes me even more pessimistic about it.
I'm just sorry about all the trouble I've caused by the version of FF.
@WillieWong Clearly. However the Mozilla developers seems to have felt as though they have smaller genitalia (code-wise, that is) and have to release faster to appease the audience.
oh c'mon, it's just some random numbers. they really didn't spend time on it as much as you do now.
@Explorer: if you are actually using a Nightly build, then unfortunately I can only tell you that Beta and Alpha softwares are not supported by StackExchange, and I think neither by MathJax (the engine that renders the mathematics), since tweaks to the Javascript engine and MathML engine may be responsible for the breakage, and those could be bugs on the side of Firefox, and not "our problem"
10:51 PM
For the layman, a new version every couple of months gives a sense that the system develops fast. Even if there was no real change.
@WillieWong Okay, thanks.
@Explorer Not really. These numbers are means of control, for the end user to know how far into development things have gone. Firefox <4 had slow paced development which gave a very good sense.
Since 4.0 changing major version number becomes an idle change, so to speak.
@Explorer You are really running firefox 7 or 8? Does that work on other websites heavily using Javascript? (Just out of curiosity. I am way too old to live on the bleeding edge like that.)
Also, this pushed Linus to release kernel 3.0.0 without any major change. Which is just stupid.
@WillieWong You should use Arch linux. It's easy to stay on the edge when there is no real edge to stay on ;-)
@AsafKaragila Right, but there's no difference between version 5.0 and 5.1 as there are many between the numbers, mathematically.
@WillieWong I said 5.0!
Be more careful, please.
10:54 PM
@Explorer Mathematically, sure. Feasibly? Not really. I am not sure how much programming experience you have, but you seem to misunderstand the idea of version numbering.
@AsafKaragila You know that I run Gentoo, right? Also, I think that whole thing about 3.0.0 is just a whimsical thing, and not a change of the whole development model.
This is just like serial numbers for software are not "randomly generated numbers", but the result of (often too simple and stupid) algorithm. The version numbering is too to indicate the amount of change from the previous version.
@Explorer I didn't notice your edit to your original comment. Sorry about that.
Hum, if it is 5.0, then there is a problem.
Awww, someone told me I'm an excellent teacher. And the other day someone else said that too... I'm feeling flattered :P
@AsafKaragila How it's related to my programming knowledge?
10:57 PM
@Explorer Because with enough programming experience you understand better what is a big change, and what is a small fix. Therefore what is the difference between 5, 5.0.1 and 5.1
@WillieWong heh, obviously there is. and I guess it's "your problem".
Also the difference, if applicable, between 5.0.0a and 5.0.0b and so on.
@Explorer Try forcing a cache clear by hitting shift-key and clicking refresh. Or hit Ctrl+F5
A: Tex broken for me...

KennyTM(Answered for future reference) It looks like the browser is caching a wrong version of MathJax. Try to clear the browser cache by holding Shift and click Refresh.

If that still doesn't work, please post a bug report (tagging as (bug) and (tex)) on meta.math.stackexchange.com
@WillieWong: Have you seen that abomination of a program which gave me ownership on this room? :D
@AsafKaragila You have ownership?
10:59 PM
@AsafKaragila don't try to make me look small, there's no noticeable difference.
@WillieWong I will, thanks.
@WillieWong Oh, but I do. And my first order of business was to disallow analysis! >:]
@AsafKaragila What the hell? How did that happen?
@Explorer I'm not trying to make you seem smaller or bigger. I'm just saying, there is, or at least supposed to be, a difference. If you don't notice it - it's a whole other story.
@WillieWong I asked on meta. Apparently I am the most active jerk around here... :)
Well, better you than Joe Schmoe, I suppose.
@AsafKaragila anyway, I still have the problem.
11:04 PM
I'm still considering to change the room's name to "The Land of No Choice".
Considering who actually visits this room regularly, I doubt anyone will really complain.
@Explorer Have you tried Willie's solution, to clear up the cache and try again? If javascript works fine on other sites then it should be a cache problem. Otherwise perhaps a JS problem.
Is the moderator of Math.SE , a mathematician?
@Explorer So still no go with MathJax? Hum. What happens if you visit the MathJax Test Page? mathjax.org/mathjax/test
If the chat works, though, I'd bet it's a cache problem. You might want to start your firefox in Private Mode and see if the error continues.
11:06 PM
@AsafKaragila Yes, didn't work.
(Give it a couple seconds, because that page takes a bit of time to load the JS)
@Explorer Most users of the site are mathematicians. Therefore it makes sense to let them moderate themselves.
@Explorer There are 4 of us moderators active. Two are professional mathematicians, two are students in mathematics.
PhD students, no?
[Math Processing Error]

[Math Processing Error]
11:08 PM
Explorer, try that link in Private mode.
@AsafKaragila I think QiaoChu is an undergrad. And I am not sure about Zev.
@WillieWong Qiaochu an undergrad? Scary thought :-)
@WillieWong Weird that there are 2,014 questions with no upvoted answers.
@AsafKaragila Well, I am pretty sure since he was just here at Cambridge on the MIT-Cambridge exchange program, which is open for third year students in MIT and second year students in Cambridge. (Because undergrad is 3 years long in UK and 4 in US.) That and the fact that he is a SE intern now. Graduate students tend not to work in internships.
@WillieWong I'm scared.
@Explorer Not really, if you read them and see that they are not that well posed, or quite localized but people already gave answers, etc etc.
11:11 PM
@Explorer that is just a bit over 10 percent, right? Also, in a lot of the cases the questions are either not answerable, or just doesn't have upvotes.
@WillieWong makes a perfect sense.
(Not answerable can either mean that the question is poor enough that it doesn't have any reasonable mathematical answers, or that the question is so good that it is actually an active research topic, so no one knows the answer.)
Or, for example, it's just impossible to answer in a forum like that.
even professional mathematicians.
Like that latest AC related question about the independence of the ordering principle from the axiom of choice.
Contrary to the common impression, not all mathematicians know everything about mathematics.
11:13 PM
@AsafKaragila how is that? since it was possible to ask, it's possible to answer
Just like a neurologist might not be a leading expert on nephrology.
@Explorer That's a stupid reason. I think that epistemology is exactly the proof that it's very easy to ask but almost impossible to actually answer.
Also, that question itself requires a very technical answer, which would require some background before that. It is about six pages long without definitions and previously needed theorems in a rather concise book I have on the topic.
@AsafKaragila In fact, for most mathematicians, the corpus of knowledge that he/she is familiar with is pitifully small compared to the entirety of known mathematics.
How am I expected to give it in an answer on the internet? Even if there is some familiarity with the underlying topic of forcing.... it's impossible.
@WillieWong That's my point exactly.
@Explorer There's that little problem called Godel's incompleteness theorem.
/me adds to the list of Use & Abuse the Incompleteness theorem
11:18 PM
If you are not familiar with it, I recommend the book Godel Escher Bach. (Though some people dislike it fervently. It is not everybody's cuppa tea.)
I started reading it when I was a freshman.
I got tired out after 220 pages or so.
I note that there isn't a "I finished" clause in that statement.
Of course.
No one finished this book, they gave him Pulitzer for tiring out everyone ;)
It has omega+1 many pages!
The last page has an index of infinity!!
@WillieWong Awesome, I'm reading the wikipedia article.
@AsafKaragila That's not right. I distinctly remember GEB having a countable many number of pages. The only book to have omega pages is the Book of Sand
"The Book of Sand" (original Spanish title: "El libro de arena") is a 1975 short story by Jorge Luis Borges. It has parallels to "The Zahir", continuing the theme of self-reference and attempting to abandon the terribly infinite. The story appears in a book of the same name, the Spanish language version of which was first published in 1975. The English translation by Norman Thomas di Giovanni was first published in The New Yorker; the entire volume The Book of Sand (ISBN 0-525-47540-0) was published in 1977. Plot summary The titular "Book of Sand" is the Book of all Books, and is a m...
11:22 PM
@WillieWong Uhh... omega+1 is countable :)
interestingly I understand nothing from it.
I heard about Borges' short stories.
An interesting fact about that book of sand, Chuck Norris finished it :)
@AsafKaragila Ah, I keep getting my ordinal notations confused.
@Explorer, are you familiar with the classical series The Prisoner?
@WillieWong No biggies. After all, omega is usually something else in PDE... right?
@AsafKaragila Not really.
I'm too young for being a mathematician. please.
(I know it's kind of TV series)
11:27 PM
@Explorer Shame, probably the best series ever to be shown on TV. In one of the episode the protagonist (Number Six) is facing a supercomputer which supposedly can answer any question.
So to speak, if it can be asked - it can be answered.
Number Six destroys the computer by overloading it, by feeding it a most simple question that has absolutely no complete answer.
Thus proving, that there are questions that can be asked but cannot really be answered.
The question was no other than "Why?".
@Explorer Basically, mathematical proofs are based on logic. Unfortunately, we cannot get something out of nothing. So there always have to be certain things that we assumed to be "obviously true". Godel's incompleteness theorem states that given a sufficiently powerful system of logic (in the sense that it contains enough assumptions to make mathematics "meaningful") that is not self contradictory (that you cannot deduce that a statement is simultaneously true and false), then (cont.)
Also, too young? How old do you think I am?
@AsafKaragila I meant, if it can be written more than be asked.
@AsafKaragila at least 58.1
11:30 PM
(cont.) there exists a statement that can be stated in the framework of this logic system but cannot be demonstrated to be either true or false in this logic system.
I'm hardly over 26... and mentally some might argue that I am a lot younger.
@AsafKaragila Except for (or perhaps especially because of) Asaf's penchant for alcohol
@WillieWong What about it? :)
@WillieWong You're totally great, thanks for the explanation.
If 26 is young, I'm not born yet.
@AsafKaragila There's also the issue that sometimes Omega is used to denote omega_1...
@Explorer Ouch.
11:33 PM
@Explorer I can only deduce from that that you're in that age that people find me condescending.
@WillieWong That is often used by non-Set theorists, to be honest. Or by notation from half a century ago and older.
By the way, Zev is an undergrad too
@AsafKaragila I would love it if you edit the Wikipedia page to say, "...sometimes by Omega (but only by non-set-theorists)." :p
Actually, when I went to visit Brown, I sat next to him in a grad number theory class (he has taken many a grad class - embarrassingly, he could take my quals and do better than me like right now)
@mixedmath Yeah, I knew Zev was an undergrad. I visited his page... However Qiaochu shows an extensive knowledge and capability of explaining it. Even more than the average grad student. So it's dissonant with the fact he is an undergrad :)
@AsafKaragila You mean for any n \in Nat?
11:36 PM
@WillieWong No, I mean N[i] U {infty}.
Even imaginary people with their imaginary age :)
@AsafKaragila can be. but you're still 26, no matter how people find you.
But hey, despite my coarse and abrasive exterior I am a fun person when you get passed that. It just takes a while to get through... usually some alcohol is needed as well.
I always wonder why some people think they are important when they are not.
(completely irrelevance)
@Explorer: unfortunately, I looked around and cannot find an obvious answer to your MathJax problem. One possibility is to try it on another browser and see if it works (Opera, Chrome, or IE). While it is unlikely it could be a network problem. (Math.SE is a MathJax partner, so the MathJax code is loded directly from MathJax content distribution network.)
@WillieWong oh yes, I can try it on chrome, wait
11:40 PM
Oh, I am fully aware of my unimportance. In fact this is what drives my arrogance. No one is important. Nothing is important. This is why I find great comfort in set theory and infinities. It has no actual importance, as these are not real objects.
What do you say when people ask you why you do set theory?
My parents ask me why I do math all the time, and they expect me to respond in ways that make it dazzling, important, and exciting to everyday life. Like I'm supposed to be a writer for NUMB3RS or one of those shows.
I always had an inclination towards infinities.
I wonder who's going to be the first guy to receive "Outspoken" on math.SE
@WillieWong it works on Chrome
not you, obviously
stop teasing me or else i shoot
Shoot what?
And why do you think I'm teasing you? Why would you assume so much about your importance in my boredom relief at this moment? Weren't you the one to complain about how people always assume they are more important than they really are?
Outspoken - hmm. I don't know that I've seen 10 users on chat... ever. But if anyone, it would have to be our great Chat Leader, Konig Asaf, I suppose.
11:47 PM
how you think I'm talking to you when I didn't use any @ signs? weren't you the one to be aware of your unimportance?
I'd talk to the wall instead of you, honestly.
shooting arrows at a target.
Thanks @WillieWong for your time.
Funny how it is in my ability to make this room closed for talking and add most of the regulars...
Ouch. That hurts.
Would make her be able and talk like a wall...
Oh yeah, I'm bursting into tears as we speak.
If it makes you feel better, I'd rather talk to you than a wall.
I don't really mind. Moreover if she's a teenager. Teenagers can't really deal with me well... no idea why. Perhaps it's the same reason cats love me.
Also, I did get two people to comment on my answers that they think I'm a great teacher. So I'm sure I'm not that bad as she made me look... :P
Hm. She. I wonder if I assumed automatically that Explorer was female because of the avatar used.
11:51 PM
I seem to have missed what that was all about, but so it goes. Are you GMT +2 time zone?
i.e. is it almost 4am?
So I am.
oh, whoops
I guess I don't know my own timezone
Wait, so there's daylight saving / summer time in Israel?
Of course.
Oh, huh, just checked Wikipedia. Israel is further North than I had thought.
11:54 PM
31'ish degrees latitude.
Right. Play time is over!
Now to continue with the proof writing.
/me returns to the grind known as Texmaker

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