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21:00
@TedShifrin I was pinging just to see if that was the response I'd get :D
@Studentmath: What does simple mean?
No multiple edges, no loops
@TedShifrin Non intersecting I guess
I guessed right, though partly.
I think approaching it the combinatorical way is the best. Doesn't have to be rigirious eitherway, it's a small step-stone in the proof.
@Mike: I spent my drive home thinking that the fact that the boundary components have no fixed points, either, meant that the fixed point we created by collapsing the boundary component couldn't be non-degenerate, but I think I decided (whilst driving) that I couldn't make sense of this smoothly.
21:01
What does 4 regular graph mean?
I will use contradiction.
Means that every vertex has a degree 4
Oh, @Studentmath, you're requiring that the graph embed in the plane, right?
What;s a degree, @Studentmath
@BalarkaSen Google it :P
i.e. 4 edges are attached to it, 4 vertices are neighbours of it.
21:02
number of edges coming into the vertex, @Balarka
@TedShifrin OK
@MikeMiller I don't want to get wrong ideas from google.
Otherwise, $K_5$ is the counterexample. @Studentmath
You get wrong ideas from us all the time, @Balarka. Why not from Google?
I don;t trust google all the time.
I made this amazing program today :) You can program a group with the data structure provided and it checks it against axioms and produces a coloured cayley table :)
Nor should you trust me.
21:03
especially on stuffs I don;t even know
finite ones
@Ted that could sound like a directed graph - oh darn, that's an easy counterexample.
It is plannar though and $K_5$ is obviously non-planar.
@TedShifrin why's that?
But still, that means I have to approach the proof differently.
Right. That's why I asked ... although I don't know how to prove $K_5$ can't be planar. :P
21:04
who is starring constantly?
it's annoying.
It's tiresome, @Balarka. I've starred exactly once in all my time here.
Not me for once :c
My bet on @MikeMiller :D
@Hippalectryon he wouldn't do that, no
worst intuition on earth
There's a nice theorem by kuratowski that defines planar graphs by $K_5$ and $K_{3,3}$
21:05
D_3 Dihedral group
@Alizter learning some new gui thingy ?
Oh xD
I'm not going to check, @Alizter :P
@Hippalectryon did you have a question about that answer?
@Alizter What does it give for $\rm{Gal}(\Bbb {\bar Q}/\Bbb Q)$?
It sure would be colorful.
@robjohn Oh no, it's just that @cc was asking the question you answered there
21:07
@Hippalectryon Ah. Okay. :-) I saw my avatar flash by so I wondered
@TedShifrin It's tricky. I just wrote a few nonsense lines a few times before deleting them :P Clearly the image of a circle around the fixed point is something that winds $\pm 1$ times around the dot - is that all we need?
Avatar flashes when pinged?
Integers modulo 360 under multiplication
I only have 360 hues :P
@Alizter Cool.
Try the monster group.
@BalarkaSen And you expect him to make a picture of this how?
21:08
@BalarkaSen I have to program the groups in, as in define the operation on them programatically
@MikeMiller I am joking
Tbh I am not even sure what the monster group's operation is
@Alizter believe me, you don't want to know
@Alizter Composition of permutations, if you consider it as a subgroup of a symmetric group.
@BalarkaSen That galois group though, tell me more about it
21:10
@Mike: It's not a naive winding number the way the index of a vector field is. It's basically $\det(df_p-I)$ that you need.
@Alizter what about it?
it's huge and no nontrivial elt, except complex conjugation is known.
@Alizter How did you generate that ?
Now @GTR has gone over to the dark side.
and it's rep is the subject of an open problem, @Alizter
21:11
@Hippalectryon I wrote a program
@TedShifrin I know (that it's not a winding number). That's the trouble!
@BalarkaSen rep?
@Alizter I know that much xD I mean, what code did you use ? (ie can i have it :D)
@Alizter representation
@Hippalectryon Maybe when I am finished with it ;)
@BalarkaSen Oh okay
@Hippalectryon It is not finished enough. Also it is written in C#
21:12
The point is that Lefschetz fixed points have to be generic, so the function shouldn't look locally like $f(x)=x$, which obviously has very non-isolated fixed points. @Mike
@Alizter C# is ok for me
I've heard of C+ and C++ ... What's C#?
@TedShifrin I've heard of C#, not C+.
(I don't want to hear D$\flat$.)
@TedShifrin It's sharper :P
c c
c c
21:13
@Hippalectryon "for me" I'd say :)
@cc Oh ok
@TedShifrin It's roughly microsoft's take on Java
How's coding, @MickLH?
Ah, thanks, MickLH. I try to hate all things Microsoft.
2
21:14
Roughly. I use it because it is strongly typed
c c
c c
@TedShifrin some languages part of Microsoft dotnet virtual machine (virtual machine like Java) framework
Very very object oriented
In this crowd, I'm a computer ignoramus.
@TedShifrin Lefschetz fixed points meaning fixed points of a map with nonzero Lefschetz number?
@BalarkaSen It's going well, still stranded with nothing but a locked down mobile connection though
21:15
@TedShifrin How dare you hate Microsoft :3
@Hippa Don't even think of another meme now.
no, @Mike ... Lefschetz number counts (appropriately) Lefschetz fixed points of a Lefschetz map. Such a map $f\colon X\to X$ is characterized by its graph's being transverse to the diagonal in $X\times X$.
@BalarkaSen I've poured much research into filling parametric curves recently
@BalarkaSen @TedShifrin 'You like Microsoft ?' - 'I'm SHOCKED'
@MickLH $\Bbb R^3$?
21:17
@TedShifrin I don't really get what you're saying, but I'll move on.
gets plane ticket to Paris to come clobber @Hippa
@BalarkaSen 3D support is very weak for general parametric curves, but 2D support is strong
@MickLH ah, ok
A fixed point $p$ is a Lefschetz fixed point $\iff 1$ is not an eigenvalue of $df_p$, @Mike.
hullo @PedroTamaroff
21:18
@TedShifrin His meme is awesome!
mr @Pedro
@TedShifrin Aha !
Et tu, Brute? = @Pedro
@Hippalectryon Does Ted say "I'm shocked" in the video?
@TedShifrin don't you want to smack @Pedro?
21:18
@TedShifrin I vaguely remember that, but Lefschetz number can be negative, so instead of understanding I'll just cry myself to sleep.
inb4 a handful of wrong answers by midnight.
It was a humorous moment, @Pedro ... I was pretending to be shocked that the students didn't all remember polar coordinates.
I think I could say that the simple 4-regular graph with least number of vertices is obviously $K_5$, and as that is not planar, there oughta be at least 6 vertices or more.
@Hippalectryon Hippa. You act like a cyclic group of very small order.
21:19
@TedShifrin Of course, yes. Do you recall what video it was?
@Ted even working with them I didn't know that nice mapping explanation.
@PedroTamaroff regarding $\sum_{n=1}^\infty\frac{\sin n}{\ln n+\cos n}$, what is your conjecture ?
@Hippalectryon hahah
@Mike: The Lefschetz number is the total intersection of the graph with the diagonal. I told you how to compute the local one. The global one is the sum of the local ones.
@Alizter I'm not good enough to even understand that -_-
21:20
@PedroTamaroff I love the Taylor series one 8-D
@Alizter Though i fear i get the idea :/
Let it be stated we're laughing with Ted, not of Ted.
@DanielFischer SHEESH!
Not so sure @Pedro about that last statement.
Which got me thinking that there are so many points in the polar coordinates that do not correspond to anything...
@DanielFischer Also, I picked up a book by Carothers about Banach theory.
21:20
It went viral with my students on Facebook ... :D
Looks promising.
That's awesome
@TedShifrin One sums over all the transverse intersections with the diagonal... and then multiplies by $\pm 1$ because of orientation or something. Anyway, like I said, don't worry about it, I'll learn it in due course.
Intersection numbers are $\pm 1$ ... do you have the right orientation or not (in the given order)
@BalarkaSen Which finite group should I do next?
21:21
@PedroTamaroff In a month when you'll have forgotten i'll launch a 'Do you even Shifrin ?' xD
I'm glad I'm going on vacation and will get a break from this lunacy.
Don't worry, i won't have access to the internet for a month+
@Alizter Try $\Bbb Z/p\Bbb Z \times \Bbb Z/p \Bbb Z$ for some $p$
Are your parents taking you to la plage and locking you up, @Hippa?
21:22
@Hippalectryon Seriously, man, if someone is clearly not pleased by your joke the response shouldn't be to double down.
@Hippalectryon I don't forget! ;)
@Alizter Dynkin diagrams, oof.
@MikeMiller The problem with @TedShifrin is that i never know when he's actually serious -_-
That's been my problem my whole life.
@Alizter First you should make sure the group is also down for it. That it's consensual.
21:23
Students, friends, partners ... Sigh ...
smacks @Pedro
Wow, that took a sad turn.
@TedShifrin Nah, they're sending me to a nice place called 'psychiatric hospital' :D --- Nah i'll just be in some country without my computer
@PedroTamaroff Not sure if...
It'll be good for you, @Hippa. Go talk to people and eat wonderful food.
@TedShifrin Don't worry Ted. You equal your derived group.
21:24
Why does people stay in this chatroom and chatty chatty so much, instead of actually doing usefull things?
@PedroTamaroff Stupid.
@BalarkaSen Cartesian product? I am trying to think how to order that on the cayley table
You're not actually expecting me to drive to the airport to get you, are you, @Pedro?
@TedShifrin I don't know.
@TedShifrin eat wonderful food I think food is one of the things i'm the least interested in for now
21:25
GOOD POINT @N3. What's the problem to focus on?
@Alizter Cartesian product, yes.
@N3b that's easier than actually doing things.
I guess there are trains.
How can you be French, then, @Hippa? sighs
I like trains.
21:26
@N3buchadnezzar What tells you we're not doing something else :D
@BalarkaSen I will do it for n then take some of p
As long as they don't crash and burn.
@PedroTamaroff Oh god not again!
LOL @Pedro ... trains? What do you think this is? Europe?
@TedShifrin Oh and i don't like real cheese :/
21:26
@N3buchadnezzar Fair enough. I am minimizing my staying time.
@Pedro they do quite frequently, actually.
Oh yeah, I'm supposed to kick @Balarka out.
I came here at 2 and it's almost 3, so I should be going
@MikeMiller You're a ring with no proper nontrivial ideals.
21:27
@TedShifrin shrugs Alexander polynomials?
@BalarkaSen I hate those, give me Jones instead
@BalarkaSen Like this? (0, 0)...(p-1, 0), (0, 1)....(p-1, 1), (0, 2)...
@Alizter Lexico. That's fine.
Who stuck @Pedro into a pitifully pathetic pun producing machine?
@BalarkaSen Operation?
21:28
@TedShifrin I'm not Schur.
(a, b)(c, d)=(ac, bd)?
Might have been Mike.
Yes, @Alizter
LOL ... ok, don't misrepresent yourself, @Pedro.
@TedShifrin He tried to win a humor competition with ten puns, but no pun in ten did.
21:29
I don't want to pin you down, @N3.
no pun intended.
@N3buchadnezzar +1
@TedShifrin To pun you down
ça ne va pas, @Hippa.
I am starring that, @Hippa
21:30
Is this a pundown ?
So, @Hippa, why are you a fraud of a Frenchman?
@BalarkaSen :D
@TedShifrin "That is enough."
??
@TedShifrin How do you want me to answer that O_o
@Hipp well, first don't surrender
21:31
une réponse valide, même (and I don't mean meme)
@Studentmath HAHAHAHAH
The spm here is..... so high ....
@Hippalectryon STart a revolution
@TedShifrin you mean meme!
Hahaha
no, I meant même
21:32
@N3buchadnezzar you mean star t a revolution ? :D
@Hippalectryon Pretend you're a Breton, not French.
this is getting pretty revolting.
yes, @TedShifrin
let us leave the room.
@DanielFischer Bretons eat cheese
Go to bed, @Balarka
2
@DanielF, @Hippa has a cholesterol problem and eschews cheese
21:33
who in the name of merlin starred that? you fool
Or at least, he won't chew it
@TedShifrin >8C I NEVER SAID THAT
Bretons win wars - What's up with the starring? everything there is less than 10 minutes ago (posted)
@TedShifrin Oh, that is terrible. There are some damn good cheeses made in France.
Don't tell me, @DanielF. I'm a fanatic.
21:34
@DanielFischer Like english cheese?
you got the badge, @TedShifrin?
thinking he needs to go back to France more frequently upon retirement
@TedShifrin You know what's good, that is all.
but not what's good for me, @DanielF, as my presence here documents.
@TedShifrin Altruism. Can you even imagine how it would be if we adults weren't here?
21:35
skeeeery.
^ Who sounds like a kid now -_-
aha stop hitting me
@N3buchadnezzar Are you Sylow?
If you are, I have a few things to say.
@BalarkaSen Group hug ?
@BalarkaSen Nah, he's Trygve Lie, or Sophus.
@N3buchadnezzar no. it's [all caps] why in the name of merlin did you invent those theorem of yours [/all caps].
21:38
To get the sword / ring out of the stone?
waves arms and tried to come up with excuses
@N3buchadnezzar you have no contribution to rings, Sylow.
Hmm, I'm embarrassed to realize that I've been pronouncing Sylow as if it were German. I have no idea what the proper Norwegian pronunciation is. Help @N3.
Cee-lo
I doubt that.
My contribution to rings v
I feel lame
21:42
@TedShifrin Ah! We were talking about this in our Algebra II class.
It is Zi-love.
Say what?
That's the German pronunciation (except "y" = "ü")
more like "off", @Pedro ...
Where's @N3 ??
WAT.
AEOA!
21:45
@N3buchadnezzar heh
Didn't sound right...
@BalarkaSen I have coded it but I am having some problems. Debugging time
But we have the biggest alphabeth
@N3buchadnezzar alpha beth?
beth numbers?
Trying to hard Balarka
21:46
I'm still getting downvotes. There's some sad person who is taking the time to downvote me little by little. Sad, indeed.
found it
@BalarkaSen When I was constructing the set. I was adding the same element by accident
Now it works
Sorry, @Pedro. I promise it isn't I.
@TedShifrin ????
@PedroTamaroff Nor me. I usually like your answers and sometimes upvote them.
21:47
I've upvoted a few, yes.
I don't usually look at that many questions/answers.
What is that? A Cayley table?
BTW, @Mike, this is sort of intriguing. You might like to think about it.
@BalarkaSen 5
21:48
@PedroTamaroff yes
@PedroTamaroff Yes for $\Bbb Z_5\times \Bbb Z_5$
@Alizter nice. try with p = 359
Make one for $A_4$.
Maybe $\Bbb F^*_{25}$ would be more interesting :P
@TedShifrin What is?
21:49
Click on it, @Mike, geez ...
Do you mean the whole question?
It sent me to the bottom of the page.
@BalarkaSen Hmm some slowness
OH, sorry.
@Alizter Try with a bit large primes then, just for looking at the big picture.
and don;t forget Pedro's request.
21:51
@BalarkaSen p^2 has to be < 360
@Alizter Right right.
@BalarkaSen I can't get past 256 bit colouring
@Alizter Do $A_4$.
try with p = 17
@TedShifrin Well, if it were true, one could cover the twice-punctured plane by a smoothly varying family of curves.
Seems unlikely that one can do that.
21:52
Oh the border was on thats why it was black
You mean smooth curves. Otherwise we can do it, of course, @Mike. I agree. But ...
@pedro tsk tsk abel first
But it's easier than that. :P
ok, i really need to go.
21:53
Well, @Mike, if you have a non-Morse theory solution, please give it there!!
No, I don't.
kicks @Balarka in the rump
OH. I thought you were saying "But... it's easier."
@PedroTamaroff I shall work on alternating groups now
Well, I gave a proof there, but it's not exactly elementary. His course sounds weird, so I don't know what they know, to be honest. @Mike
21:55
@TedShifrin Didja ask?
Yes ... Read. @Mike
I'm illiterate, @Ted
Good point.
@PedroTamaroff I am going to need some help with $A_4$ as I am unfamiliar with it
as far as i can tell it is the group of even permuations
@Alizter It has $12$ elements.
Yes.
21:58
what is the operation?
You can try matrix multiplication, perhaps.
Matrix representation isn't that clear, @Pedro.
We can do symmetries of a tetrahedron, but I suspect @Alizter won't like that.

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