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12:00
@Sawarnik I am simply not getting..what you are trying to do...or trying to say...
:D
@Chris'ssis yes, I just saw what Catalan's constant is...really very interesting series that is.
@Hawk I just created it.
:14900966 -_- I do not understand!!
@Chris'ssis That is really great...
Here joins another great!
@Hawk and then I created $$\sum_{n=1}^{\infty} \frac{\displaystyle \sin^2\left(\frac{n \pi}{2}\right)}{n^2}$$ that requires no pen and no paper.
Greetings! @DanielFischer
12:03
Hi @Hawk.
Hi @DanielFischer
@Chris'ssis Now, I do not understand what you are saying...
Hi @all.
There should be something that pings everyone...
12:05
@DanielFischer Is there any "all" active on the chat?
@Hawk That would create a lot of prooblems.
@Sawarnik Yes, that surely will.
@all Did you get the ping?
@Sawarnik I don't know.
@DanielFischer robjohn just told me about Dirichlet's series. When I started reading about it...I saw that its initial condition is $a_n\ge a_{n+1}>0$
abcdefghijklmnopequrstywxzy
12:08
Hi, how do you calculate limit as n-> infty of (2n)!! / (2n +1)!!
@Hawk Dirichlet's test, I suppose?
How do I tackle $\sum\limits_{n=1}^{\infty} \dfrac{\sin n}{n}$ with Dirichlet's Test
@DanielFischer yes, I mistyped that.
I like irritating people.
You like 'irritating people'? or You like to irritate people?
@Hawk You show that $$\sum_{n=1}^k \sin n$$ is bounded independent of $k$.
12:10
@Hawk to irritate people :P
And I m an expert at that.
@DanielFischer Okay, then?
Especially when Rob is not around :D
@Hawk Then you note that $\frac{1}{n} \to 0$ monotonically, and Dirichlet says $$\sum_{n=1}^\infty \frac{\sin n}{n}$$ converges.
Yay! Ping-pongs.
Anyone? Please?
12:13
@DanielFischer Do you mean to say treating $\sum \sin n$ and $\sum \dfrac{1}{n}$ seperately?
And jingle bells.
@Hawk No. Dirichlet's test is about series of the form $\sum a_n b_n$. We need to look at the sequence $(a_n)$ and the partial sums $\sum_{n=1}^k b_n$ separately to verify that the premises of the test are given, but we don't treat $\sum a_n$ and $\sum b_n$ separately, in general, neither converges.
@Sawarnik is that something to be proud of?
@685252 No, but is one of my very few specialties :)
Oh, Rob comes again.
@DanielFischer Oh yes, I understand now...very clearly I think.
12:18
His mean square scares me again.
So I should keep quiet :(
@Chris'ssis $\frac{\pi^2}{8}$
Welcome back @robjohn
@Sawarnik good idea :)
@robjohn yeah :-))))) Those series are just for fun.
@Chris'ssis now I understand the difference between your created first and second series...there is a 2 exponent on the numerator that escaped me...
@DanielFischer thank you.
12:21
@Hawk It had been a month or two since I restarted my laptop. Some things were going a bit slow, so I restarted it.
@robjohn thank you for teaching all those things today.
@robjohn Okay, so you never turn off your laptop?
@Hawk I put it to sleep, but usually not off.
why?
@Hawk For long trips, I will turn it off.
@robjohn Does not the internet connection get disconnected when you put it sleep? I first saw you going off today...
12:22
@Hawk yep,
@robjohn but I never saw you before getting out of this room...how does that happen?
Mean square. Square Triangle. Triangle radius.
shhh...
>8(
@Hawk I'm sure I leave it every time I put my computer into sleep
@robjohn Okay, then I must have missed that...
12:26
what are the advantages of the the "sleep" mode?
over shutting it off
you can easily open it again.
but you can burn it out that way too
@robjohn you didn't tell me... the example where Integral test is easier to use over Cauchy Condensation?
@685252 yup :(
Cat eats dog. Bats sit ball. Cot kill bot.
you can't burn it out if you shut it off
12:29
chatematics
Chat is cat. Cat is mat. Mat is math.
@Hawk I would have to look for one.
@robjohn Okay, I better try to learn the Dirichlet's Test and Integral Test...are there any such tests?
Mathechatics.
Mean square. Mean triangle. Mean orthocenter.
Saw arni. See arni. Seen arni. Seeing arni.
Sa warning
Sa war ni. Sa peace ni.
12:42
Spamming sucks guys.
PSQ
:-)
You're not making sense now.
in Mathematics Educators, 6 hours ago, by Markus Klein
We have the first famous question in the site: http://matheducators.stackexchange.com/q/1325/114 :)
Making sense. Sense is not. Not goes for a walk. Spam is are. Doesn't make sense.
Morning, @Pedro.
13:15
.
..
...
....
@DanielFischer Hello.
I am I. He am he. She am she. It is it. Is it is?
@Hawk Am you is?
@Sawarnik I you are.
@Hawk Is you she?
13:33
Who's spamming?
@JackDouglas Little guy in red.
You should stop spamming.
He's going to
@PedroTamaroff it's not spamming, but it is non-constructive noise. @Sawarnik - this is your only warning. Stop disrupting the room now.
I feel I have some part in the spamming. I started with the chatematics word, which seem to have caused Sawarnik to go into spamming mode.
@EnergyNumbers I've already given him 30 minutes off
13:35
@EnergyNumbers Still bothersome.
@JackDouglas Ah, ok, you're ahead of me.
@Sawarnik please take it the right way and stop being annoying when you can chat again.
@PedroTamaroff Yes it is. That's why I dropped in - and I'm guesing it's why Jack dropped in too - to tidy up and remove the noise, and curb its source.
@MatsGranvik doesn't sound like your fault to me :)
1 hour ago, by Sawarnik
I like irritating people.
@JackDouglas You look like a serious man.
Heh.
13:38
@PedroTamaroff It's the beard ;)
@JackDouglas And the suit! And the suit.
ha, that was at my brother's wedding!
Surely too late for congratulations.
yes, a few years ago now :)
I will leave you in relative peace, have fun.
13:47
@JackDouglas @EnergyNumbers please don't mind, do you feel that was a little too harsh? Wouldn't a warning from a moderator as you suffice?
@Hawk 30 minutes is nothing.
I told him to stop before.
@PedroTamaroff okay.
@Hawk Personally, I thought 30 minutes for that level of disruption was pretty lenient.
Why the hell was this down voted?
13:48
@MattN. SUP BRAW.
@EnergyNumbers okay, you will know better...thank you for answering.
@MattN. "People be mad crazy."
And why the hell was this down voted?
@PedroTamaroff Pisses me off.
@Hawk Oh, I'm not sure I know better: every mod has their own feel for what's right, and I'm entirely happy with the way that Jack has dealt with it.
@MattN. "People be ma...."
Oh, wait.
I guess someone got it against Daniel.
13:50
Makes no sense.
@EnergyNumbers Okay, thank you for taking the time to respond.
@MattN. Why not?
@PedroTamaroff Because he, like you, is of the very inoffensive sort.
@MattN. Yeah, people take it on us too.
Some people think downvotes harm people, I don't know.
@MattN. Do you understand this?
@PedroTamaroff In theory I do. But it's been a while and it would take me at least 30 minutes to go through it.
And I'm not in the right set of mind right now.
13:53
@MattN. How is it going?
Sorry, bro.
@PedroTamaroff Quite alright, what about yourself?
@MattN. Not bad. Rain ruined my tennis classes this morning though.
Hi, a question: why is this? wolframalpha.com/input/…
@mirgee Have you tried anything? It is not that complicated.
@PedroTamaroff There is no indoor arena, I take it.
13:56
@MattN. Heh, no. Far from that.
It's a nice place though.
@Hawk I intended the question "Who's spamming?" to be taken as something of a warning. I also 'kicked' the user to give them a chance to voluntarily cool off, but I didn't feel I got a helpful response. Does that make sense?
@mirgee Do you know Stirling's approximation for $\log n!$
@JackDouglas Definitely that makes sense, sorry, I did not mean to offend you, but I was not aware of your line of action....but I should have trusted that a moderator will take actions much sensibly...thank you for responding.
@DanielFischer Do you have a serial down voter?
13:58
@ThomasAndrews Heard of it, but it shouldn't be that complicated
I'll bbl
@Hawk No offense at all: I'm glad to be asked especially if what I did looked harsh.
@MattN. I wouldn't call two downvotes "serial". But it looks like I've annoyed somebody a little.
@mirgee You're looking at $n^{-1}\log(n^n/n!)$.
@DanielFischer How did you do that?
14:00
@MattN. I have no idea.
That is $\log(n/n!^{1/n})$.
@JackDouglas Okay, thank you for taking the time to respond.
@DanielFischer This pisses me off.
hello guyz
14:02
So it suffices you find the limit $a_{n+1}/a_n$ of $a_n=n^n/n!$, since you have $\log a_n^{1/n}$. But that is easy, since the quotient is $(n+1)^n/n^n$.
That goes to $e$.
@MattN. That's life. I prefer downvotes with a reason, but those are really rare.
So $\lim=\log e=1$.
@mirgee
Why don't we have latex in chat?
@AwalGarg We have.
where?
14:03
The question is "How do I get $\LaTeX$ in the chat?"
It might be easier to see it as $$\frac{1}{n}\sum_{k=1}^n-\log \frac k n$$ which is a Riemann summ for an improper integral $-\int_0^1 \log x\,dx$
Ok, i got it
Phew.
thnx guyx
14:04
@AwalGarg Hi.
@Hawk Thank you so very much for coming in support with me!
@Sawarnik Learned the lesson?
@Sawarnik Please do not spam again.
@Sawarnik ho ho, gud to see u again
what is spam?
@AwalGarg SK posted "noise".
@MatsGranvik No it was deifinetly not you! Sorry.
@PedroTamaroff I don't know. Which lesson?
14:06
@Sawarnik really? u seem to be a disciplined boy
but gud, boys deserve doing fun (sometimes)
I always wanted to get blocked sometimes!
@PedroTamaroff Got it, thanks
oh, i see the transcript now
that was gud
@AwalGarg Really!
@Sawarnik yeah
14:09
@Hawk Ok, I will not spam for some time now.
@AwalGarg Come to this room: chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/13574/… !
@JackDouglas I m back, thanks!
Mods blocked a poor little kid. So sad.
SIGH. Ignores.
14:31
@PedroTamaroff Sorry.
@Sawarnik glad to hear it! Please try not to get flagged more than 10 times in the space of a minute again today...
Ok :)
14:47
@Sawarnik please send me the link once more...
@Pedro I'm going to a conference today.
@Mike What about?
15:08
@PedroTamaroff Bad math.
@Mike Ah, yes.
Bay Area Discrete Mathematics.
That's the one.
@user127001 I got blocked :)
What are you going to hear about?
15:09
@PedroTamaroff abstracts
@Sawarnik blocked from what?
@user127001 Spamming.
What did you spam @Sawarnik
@user127001 All that nonsense above!
Oh, it didn't look like traditional "spam"
15:14
Yup!
@Mike Any one you're itnerested in particular?
That's a TL;DR man. =D
.
15:32
My message didn't go through @Pedro. Devadoss's and McGinley's.
but that shit ain't long just read it
I wonder if there is a very fast way of testing the convergence of $$\sum_{n=1}^{\infty} \frac{\displaystyle \sin\left(1+\frac{1}{2}+\cdots+\frac{1}{n}\right)}{n\displaystyle \left(1+\frac{1}{2}+\cdots+\frac{1}{n}\right)}$$
(I just created it)
Very nice looking one!
@Hawk Yeah, it's marvellous! :-)
@Chris'ssis I would love to solve this one!
when is it useful?
15:38
@JohanLarsson We don't use that word here.
@Chris'ssis The obvious idea doesn't work, since $H_n\sim \log n$ and $\sum (n\log n)^{-1}\to\infty$.
@Chris'ssis Consider doing the following, maybe.
Split $\sin(H_n)$ as $\sin(H_{n-1}+\frac 1 n)=\sin (H_{n-1})\cos\frac 1 n +\cos(H_{n-1})\sin \frac 1n$.
The extra $\sin 1/n\simeq 1/n$ guarantees convergence.
And $\cos 1/n\sim 1$.
@PedroTamaroff It might be helpful using the fact that $H_n∼\log(n)$ though.
@Chris'ssis *though. Aha.
But my idea uses rather $H_n-H_{n-1}=n^{-1}$.
That be useful.
@PedroTamaroff then you get $\displaystyle \sin (H_{n-1})\cos\frac 1 n$. This is troublesome ...
15:44
It's essentially the same as the previous series.
Yeah...
@PedroTamaroff I have a feeling ...
though
@PedroTamaroff I think it can be done in one line.
If the page is wide enough, sure.
(let me put things on paper to better see my ideas)
How do you find this limit, please: wolframalpha.com/input/?i=limit+of+%28%28n%29^%28n%29%29%2F%28n!+e^n%‌​29+as+n-%3Einfinty
wolframalpha.com/input/?i=limit+of+%28%28n%29^%28n%29%29%2F%28n!+e^n%‌​29+as+n-%3Einfinty
Who knows bro.
15:48
"http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=limit+of+%28%28n%29^%28n%29%29%2F%28n!+e^n‌​%29+as+n-%3Einfinty"
It's an open problem.
Funny
@mirgee I cannot see what that is.
Type things here.
((n)^(n))/(n! e^n) as n->infinty
Why do you care, also?
@mirgee Diverges.
It is $\sim \sqrt{2\pi n}$.
Even if the copied link does not work, you can always use tinyurl or some other link showrtener.
@Pedro Let him figure it out. Hint at it bro.
@Mike Meh.
Not an easy result.
@PedroTamaroff: According to Wolfram, it converges to zero
15:52
$(n^n)/(n! e^n)$.
@mirgee Then the other way around.
$\sim 1/\sqrt{2\pi n}$.
yes, your second one's correct @Pedro
@Mike I know.
@PedroTamaroff: Hint where that came from, please
@mirgee Stirling's approximation, Wallis' product.
15:55
@migree It's helpful t goddamnit Pedro
@PedroTamaroff I am not supposed to know that, but whatever... Thank you so much :)
@mirgee Google.
@mirgee It's hard to give a good hint without knowing what class this is for, what your background is, etc.
It's easy to give bad hints, as my friend has just demonstrated. :D
@Mike Those are not hints.
They are keywurds.
@mirgee What about using $e^n\ge 1+n$?
I think this might help you to get some reasonable estimate for $\frac{n^n}{n!e^n}$.
(I hope you're using ChathJax and this is readable for you.)
Sorry, my mistake. That estimate is too weak to help here.
:-(
16:22
@mirgee @Pedro You don't need the full strength of Stirling. Just the integral test estimate for $\log n!$ should do it.
@TedShifrin I was being lazy.
@TedShifrin You mean something like $\log (n!) = \log 1+...+\log n \le \int_1^{n+1} \log t \, dt \le (n+1)\log (n+1)$?
I guess I need lower bound for $n!$, not an upper bound, so what I wrote clearly does not help.
Similar lower bound would be $\log (n!) = \log 1+...+\log n \ge \int_1^n \log t \, dt = (n-1)\log n$.
My MSE rating is a devil's number: 3666. \m/
@EnjoysMath Why is it a devil?
Should I reduce it by 2? :P
16:41
I should have written $n(\log n-1)$ instead of $(n-1)\log n$.
@TedShifrin thanks a lot for uploading your course on Youtube, it's very helpful.
This would give $\log n!\ge (n-1)\log n$, and then $n!\ge \frac{n^n}{e^n}$. Which does not seem strong enough for the mirgee's problem. So this is probably not what Ted had in mind.
17:40
Hi @Ted
Hi @Mike, @Pedro, @Martin, @Gabriel
@Gabriel: Glad to hear it. I'm hoping to get the first half of the course videoed next fall, my last time teaching it. It was really intended more for my own students, but I'm glad it's of interest.
@Martin: What I intended was $\log n! = \sum_{k=1}^n \log k > \int_1^n \log x\,dx$.
@Pedro: Laziness does not you become :P Tennis time!
Yes, that's what I wrote here:
1 hour ago, by Martin Sleziak
Similar lower bound would be $\log (n!) = \log 1+...+\log n \ge \int_1^n \log t \, dt = (n-1)\log n$.
(After I have noticed that I have inequality in the wrong way, not the one needed here.)
Well, so, $\int \log x\,dx = x\log x - x$, so we get the estimate $$n! > \left(\frac ne\right)^n\cdot e,$$ right?
Oh, so I guess for @mirgee's original question, we need the other inequality.
Where does $\cdot e$ come from? Or did I made a mistake?
I'm assuming he wants to analyze convergence of the series ?
Because at $x=1$, the RHS is $-1$, not $0$ :P
17:49
$e^{n\log n-n}=e^{n\log n}e^{-n}=n^ne^{-n}$.
I mean the RHS of the indefinite integral ... Common error is to neglect the bottom ... :P
Doh'!
So we have in fact $\log n! \ge n\log n-n+1$. From that we get your estimate.
But I think we need the other inequality. Which would be $\log n! < \int_1^{n+1}\log x\,dx$.
So many zombies in this chat
@Chris'ssis you got solution to the problem you made?
17:53
@Hawk Euler–Maclaurin formula (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euler%E2%80%93Maclaurin_formula)
$n!$ is in denumerator. If we want an upper bound for the fraction, we want a lower bound for the factorial.
@Chris'ssis Don't know :( ...okay let me read that...
@Chris'ssis thanks for the link...
Well, I want a lower bound, @Martin, as I'm going to claim the series diverges. But I still don't know what the original question really was :P
I thought that original question was this limit:
2 hours ago, by mirgee
((n)^(n))/(n! e^n) as n->infinty
Ah, ok, I was guessing it was the delicate question of deciding convergence of the series. One of my favorites. :P
I don't think our bound settles convergence of the sequence.
17:57
Basically you should ask mirgee. He/she asked the question in this chatroom.
If it's the sequence, I think Stirling might be needed. But my approach shows, I believe, that $$\frac1e < \left(\frac ne\right)^n\cdot\frac1{n!} < e.$$
@Chris'ssis is this really fast? I feel it to be complicated...
Well, I guess I need to go back to grading awful differential geometry exams. :(
@DanielFischer are you free now?
is @Daniel lurking?
18:02
@Hawk Not as free as we were in the seventies and eighties, but still relatively free, comparing to the rest of the world. Or did you mean whether I have time at the moment?
smacks @Daniel
Hi @Ted.
Ouch!
@DanielFischer yes, that is what I meant, if you have time at the moment :)
Hi, silly goose.
@Hawk Yes, I have.
18:04
Hmm, @Martin, my lower bound is wrong. It should have been $$\dfrac 1{e(n+1)}\,,$$ which does go to $0$, but too slowly for the series to converge.
@DanielFischer How would you solve the problem posted by @Chris'ssis...I find Euler-Maclaurin to be tough for me.
OK, bye for now, all.
Bye @Ted, what's for dinner today?
@TedShifrin Bye.
I want to know.
18:08
@Hawk The $$\sum_{n=1}^\infty \frac{\sin H_n}{nH_n}$$ one? Don't know, would have to think about it. See whether $H_n = \log n + \gamma + O(n^{-1})$ leads somewhere first, I guess.
@DanielFischer Yes, that one.
The corresponding integral converges (but not absolutely), so I lean towards expecting the sum converges too.
@DanielFischer I do not understand fully, so I open conditional convergence on wikipedia...and it says, that $\sum\limits_{n=0}^{\infty}|a_n|=\infty$ when there is conditional convergence.
I cannot make anything clearly out of it...
@Hawk If $\sum \lvert a_n\rvert < \infty$, the series would be unconditionally convergent, so if you have a truly conditionally convergent series, it doesn't converge absolutely.
@DanielFischer what is meant by 'absolutely' ? is that what you said just before, in that statement?
18:20
@Hawk That the series of the absolute values converges, $\sum \lvert a_n\rvert < \infty$.
@DanielFischer Okay, I understand that now.
which are good apps/software related to maths for kids( K10~12)
@jackopen Books?
book is also fine
@PedroTamaroff
18:29
Lately I see too many people looking for "online sources."
Pick books peeps.
2
They are great.
18:42
@DanielFischer sorry, I need to go now.
@Hawk Bye, see you tomorrow or whenever.
@jackopen Geogebra
thanks @ccorn
Did Pinelope Cruz get breast augmentation? I can't figure this one out guys...
I'm watching Spanglish and they're ginormous
@EnjoysMath Spanglish is an old one.
18:56
Yeah, I'm watching it because I love Sandler's comedies. 'Click' was awesome
@EnjoysMath Apparently no operation.
I googled and it's still up in the air
She might be drinkin badger milk :D

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