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00:02
This old revision is broken, but I'm sure this page was ok back then.
@IanMateus Interesting.. So maybe wikipedia updated today, while keeping their phone version the same.
btw, my phone isn't parsing that stuff.
Is there an explanation to why mathematicians discover proofs independently and sometimes at the same time?
Because a lot of the ideas are usually floating around just eluding definition.
It is no surprise that more than one mathematician discovers two ways of looking at the same thing.
It also has to do with the fact that the importance of the problem means it is tried by a large number of people simultaneously.
00:18
@KarlKronenfeld
that be me
Hungerford calls isomorphisms "equivalences". Have you encountered this convention before?
what exactly are being called equivalent?
00:19
Just checking.
@KarlKronenfeld "In a category $\mathscr C$ a morphism $f:A\to B$ is called an equivalence if there is in $\mathscr C$ a morphism $g:B\to A$ such that $gf=1_A$ and $fg=1_B$"
@PedroTamaroff yeah, I have never seen that called an equivalence. Equivalence is often reserved for relating two categories (in a way that is not necessarily an isomorphism), in my experience.
Hi, can I say : a sequence $(n_k)$ tends to 0 ?
Too many odd letters for me, @PedroTamaroff
00:24
@Julien what do you mean with a sequence $(n_k)$?
Also, I got one ugly question. When you prepare for a test and there's a question you know the answer to, yet it's ugly and long, do you usually go through it either-way or skip?
Maybe just get the basic ideas from it?
Hm, yeah.
In fact, I would like to say with words : $\lim_{k\to +\infty} u_k=0$
I would say then that said sequence tends to 0, yes.. but English is not my mother-tounge. That's how we would say it in my langauge, though.
@Julien "The limit of you sub-kay as kay tends to infinity is zero."
00:30
@PedroTamaroff Thanks!!
If you know the answer to it you should be able summarize the basic idea behind its solution, right @studentmath?
Yes, precisely what I did @skullpatrol
Think it covers it enough so I don't go into the ugly technical details of writing it over and over again, but the idea get stuck in my head.
gets*
Hey, why don't comments have preview?
because on se sites without latex it's useless.
For instance, I don't think you can do quotes or lists or other formatting things in comments.
00:40
Also, comments are not suppose to be that detailed, are they?
Yeah, you can't @KarlKronenfeld
@skullpatrol that's a good point
@PedroTamaroff yes ?
00:46
@Julien I'm interested in your answer here.
Here's a nice one. Let $\lambda_1$, $\lambda_2$ and $\lambda_3$ be Cardinal numbers, so that $\lambda_1$<$\lambda_2$. Prove that $\lambda_1*\lambda_3$<$\lambda_2^\lambda3$.
It's extremely intutive but getting the proof around is a bit harder
@PedroTamaroff (I'm sorry if I misunderstood the meaning of your sentence) Thank you :)
@Julien I'm trying to learn French, but at the moment I cannot maintain a conversation with you in that language. =P
@PedroTamaroff lol(mdr in french), It seems that it is a difficult language..
@Julien "me da risa"?
I speak Spanish, I'm from South America. So French is not that tough.
00:57
@PedroTamaroff sí, yo creo que han pasado tres años en que no he hecho Español..(I'm not sure it is correct)
@Julien Ah. En vez de "hecho", debería decir "hablado".
Good though!
@PedroTamaroff ah! yes, How could I have forgotten that?
@PedroTamaroff I love spanish language, where do you live in south America ?
01:18
@PedroTamaroff halp
there's been some progress at least
01:31
@Julien Argentina.
@AlexanderGruber You're a masochist! =D
01:48
Can someone please help me with this induction proof?
Probably not.
It is really weird I don't get how to do it
Well we definitely can't if you don't say what it is
Okay. well I have a recurrence relation:
$a_{n+2} = \dfrac{-a_{n}}{(n+2)(n+1)}$.
a_n+2 = -a_n/(n+2)(n+1)
Induct twice, once for even index, once for odd
01:57
yah I got the odd and the even one...but how do I induct the two
0
Q: Using induction to prove a general form from a recurrence relation

Jake ShellmanI have the recurrence relation: $a_{n+2} = \dfrac{-a_{n}}{(n+2)(n+1)}$. I have done some work to identify that two cases emerge: one is n is positive, and one if n is negative. If n = 2m (even) $a_{n} = a_{2m} = \dfrac{(-1)^m a_0}{(2m)!}$. If n = 2m+1 (odd) $a_{n} = a_{2m + 1} = \dfrac{(-1)^m ...

@JakeShellman You induct on one at a time.
To prove something is true for $\Bbb N$; you can prove it is true for the odds first and then for the evens.
@anon You there?
02:23
yeah
okay. so, you would assume the even case, then show k+1 and then you would separately show the odd case, then induct k+1 for the odds? So wouldn't that mean you are going from an odd to an even? Or would you just do for example n = 2k and n = 2k+2?
@anon I have a question.
@JakeShellman You induct on the variable $n$ in $2n$.
So the case $n+1$ is $2(n+1)=2n+2$ the next even number.
See?
Oh..so for example, if I have for the even case, n = 2m, then I induct on m, so I assume a_n for n = 2m and use the inductive hypothesis to induct a_n for n = 2(m+1) = 2m + 2. Then if I have an odd case, n= 2m+1, then I assume n = 2m+1, and induct n = 2(m+1) + 1 = 2m +3 .. right?
Indeedz.
ok
thanks!
02:30
NP.
Or is it P? Who knows!
@Mike
You know about categories?
When I'm tutoring calculus I shouldn't be getting questions like "is $-(3+h) = -3+3h$ or $-3-3h$?"
@Pedro Some
@Mike Send them back to Algebra Precalc.
lol
thats sad
is the color coding of google's olympic logo supposed to be a swipe at russia?
02:40
@anon Nice observation.
@Pedro I wish.
@Mike I am reading the proof that the product of a family of objects, if it exists, is unique up to isomorphism.
@JakeShellman nice
Now, I am unsure about a step.
@Mike: How 'bout majors in diff geo telling me that the dot product of two vectors is a vector?
02:42
@TedShifrin Send them back to.... wherever!
Right. Calc 1 for chain rule?
@anon Can I continue with my question?
sure
OK.
So a product P for a family of objects A_i is defined as another object in the category together with a set of maps p_i (projections?) with the following property.
Yeah, projections.
02:47
For any object B and any collection of maps f_i: B --> A_i there is a unique map f : B ---> P such that p_i f = f_i
@Ted I don't know where these people come from. It's incredibly frustrating
Has @Pedro lost his TeX fingers?
does Ted need the TeX goggles?
we're not all uniformly talented/well-trained @Mike
Now, assuming <P,p_i> and <Q,q_i> are two products, we know there is a map f : Q --> P such that p_i f = q_i and a map g: P --> Q for which q_i g= p_i.
This means q_i (gf)= q_i and p_i(fg)=p_i for each i.
02:50
@Ted They certainly should know that negatives distribute. I don't feel this is an unnecessary request.
But why does this mean fg,gf are the identities?
Shouldn't that above be true for any map, not only the q_is or p_is?
I think my seniors are far more heinous than your frosh, @Mike. Welcome to the less fun part of teaching.
I'll grant it.
Someone has been struggling with the mistake $f(x+h)=f(x)+h$
@PedroTamaroff by universal property there is a unique map u:P->P (or v:Q->Q) such that p_i (u) = p_i for all i. observe u=id_P and v=id_Q work. use this to show that fg is id_P and gf is id_Q
They've been getting that the derivative of everything is one, unsurprisingly
02:54
Gee, I wonder why.
@anon did you read what i wrote?
@PedroTamaroff yes, what about it
I explained why the equations q_i(gf)=q_i and p_i(fg)=p_i mean gf and fg are the identities. which subsequently means indeed that x(gf)=x and y(fg)=y for an x in End(Q) or fg in End(P).
@anon Why do we know fg and gf are id_P,id_Q resp if they only work for the p_i,q_is?
@PedroTamaroff you can't say "they only work for the p_i,q_i's" (note you said something contradictory above: "shouldn't the above be true for any map?"), all you can do is ask "how does just knowing these are true for the p_i,q_i's entail that they hold true for all x,y's, or equivalently that fg is id_P and gf is id_Q?" which is what I answered
What universal property are you referring to here "by universal property there is a unique map u:P->P (or v:Q->Q) such that p_i (u) = p_i for all i. observe u=id_P and v=id_Q work. use this to show that fg is id_P and gf is id_Q"?
03:00
12 mins ago, by Pedro Tamaroff
For any object B and any collection of maps f_i: B --> A_i there is a unique map f : B ---> P such that p_i f = f_i
apply this with B=P and f_i=p_i to get that id_P is the unique map P->P commuting with the projections
@Ted How do you help students through these problems? The one with the algebra errors I'm trying to joke with and get them to go more slowly.
My confusion was that the book goes directly from what I wrote to fg,gf being ids, using the uniqueness of the id.
id_P is the only endo of P commuting with the p_i. you showed fg commutes with the p_i. hence fg=id_P. same thing for Q and q_i and gf.
Yes, now it is all good.
03:05
Sigh. $\frac ab - \frac cd = \frac {a_c}{b-d}
Sigh, broken TeX.
@Mike Keep sharing.
Spread the grief or it will eat you up.
>implying comments can't be edited
It already has, Pedro
ORLY?
I'm watching Les Miserables.
@anon not on phone interface
03:08
ah, yeah
only human left without smartphone
Im on my phone too
Hai maik
This movie is quite long.
Hey man, my typos aren't that egregious
03:38
@anon
I was trying to come up with a category where products don't exist.
I think I have an example.
oh no I have to play the tower of Hanoi induction
If I take $\mathscr C=\{G\}$ and infinite group and let ${\rm hom}(G,G)$ be the elements of $G$.
Where composition is $g\circ g'=gg'$ the product in $G$.
mmhmm
03:41
OUCH.
I confused objects and maps.
Sorry.
Let me try again...
(:
Well, take $\bf Set$ and assume AoC is false? @anon
=D
\:
Just kidding.
Do you know an example?
@Pedro One of the most common algebraic objects you use is an example :)
03:49
@Mike ORLY?
@Pedro Yes. One of the big three.
Groups, rings, modules.
> modules
palmface
okay let's try again
one of the big four
04:00
what are the big three things covered in a first abstract algebra course? you got the first two right, then suddenly veered off into modules at precisely the wrong moment to veer...
@pedro we believe in you
(special case of rings)
@anon That's what my algebra course covers.
@anon It appears his first algebra course covered modules
Sure, fields.
What the heck.
04:00
well, your algebra course is weird
It seems a good course.
interdesting
Explain?
@Pedro now try to find the product of Q and F_2
04:09
rip
if you do noncommutative algebra, modules are important
right and left modules
so field theory goes in other direction
of course modules are important
but that wasn't the point here :p
well you said the program is weird
it just has other focus
just saying
04:13
@Pedro Prove Q and F2 have no categorical product
I was the one who said it was weird, not Mike. I also said first course, and usually first courses focus more on abelian/commutative than nonabelian/noncommutative (for obvious reasons).
@Pedro give that a shot, lemme know if it's not obvious
@anon okay right
@Mike To show there is no product of $\Bbb Q$ and $\Bbb F_2$ I must show such thing fails to be a field, say?
@Pedro Right
Just by the definitions. "There exists a field with projection maps..."
And derive a contradiction.
04:24
KAY.
does anyone know if the Tower of Hanoi can be done in fewer than $2^n-1$ steps?
But the maps have to be field homos.
You can prolly show the strategy for $2^n-1$ is optimal.
Right, morph isms in the category of fields.
And with that you're practically done.
I know for the basis that it holds true... like if we have n = 1
$1 = 2^1-1$
$1=1$
that's baiss
fjsdfl; basis
I got the induction.... but I'm wondering if it can be done in fewer than $2^n-1$ steps
@Mike I can find nonzero nonunits with those.
04:26
@Pedro Well, my contradiction would have been that the characteristic of our product field woul be both 2 and 0.
But I'm sure you can find a hundred problems with the assumption that there's a product.
tower of hanoi is such a calming game
Hello everybody.
04:28
umm high
hi rather
but can you achieve the goal of the game in less steps?
less than $2^n-1$
@anon I can think of better calming things
pretty sure the answer's no
ok... but how do I prove that part? o/o
@usukidoll depends on your initial configuration
sigh... if $P(k)$ is true then $2^k-1$ must be true
if $P(k+1) $ is true then $2^{k+1}-1$ must be true as well
through induction aww wtheck latex
04:30
for elevated perspective I would form a graph whose vertices are configurations and whose edges are moves from one configuration to another. I think it's a rooted tree or somesuch.
2^{k+1}
so how do I prove that it's impossible for the Tower of Hanoi to be played in fewer steps
induction, no doubt
Would it be unfair to say that if an infinite group had a unique non-identity automorphism, then that group must be abelian and the automorphism must be the sending of every element to its inverse?
well that's not trivially true
prove it
:/
bangs head
04:32
I can.
unless we can't use induction ahh that doesn't make sense... we need it
It's easy to show that conjugation is an automorphism.
DAYUM. Dem feels. Les Miserables.
If you conjugate by 2 different elements, and they both map one thing to the same place, we must have that every element is invariant under conjugation.
Which is the same as saying the group is abelian.
o.o how to prove that tower of hanoi is impossible with fewer moves?
04:34
@Mwarsi Why is inversion not the identity?
@usukidoll Google tower of hanoi something must pop up
Hmm.
that's what I'm doing x)
some say it's not possible at all
@MWarsi by "if you conjugate by 2 different elements and they both map one thing to the same place" do you mean "any two conjugation maps $x\mapsto axa^{-1}$ and $x\mapsto bxb^{-1}$ are the same automorphism"?
@Mike but that would essentially be specifying the group as only having elements of order 2, no?
04:37
indeed
And that is scarcely the case in general, I guess.
@Mwarsi yeah, and you can prove such a group is necessarily abelian
Okay...but how does that detract from what I said?
Well, okay. I suppose this is a case where sending an element to its inverse IS trivial.
your argument was false as stated :p
No, not really.
Because this group does not, then, have a unique non-identity automorphism.
Which was a precondition.
Or, does it, maybe?
04:41
:/
you said that inversion was clearly a nontrivial auto :p
you had to do that in cases
case 1: inversion = identity
case 2: inversion nontrivial
Okay. Barring this case, is it not?
yes but an argument still needs to do them separately
Okay, okay.
Essentially, what I'm trying to do is find an infinite group, other than the integers, that has a unique, non-identity automorphism. I know, in a sense, now, that it must be abelian, and that the automorphism in question is inversion, and also that there exists an element in it not of order 2.
I know that if we have an element of infinite order, than one can embed Z in there.
So, I'm actually a little curious as to whether this is possible with an infinite group where every element has finite order.
I don't think you proved it must be abelian.
04:48
he was close tho
But all its elements are invariant under conjugation.
It must be.
prove it first!
I did!
Conjugate by 2 different elements.
15 mins ago, by MWarsi
If you conjugate by 2 different elements, and they both map one thing to the same place, we must have that every element is invariant under conjugation.
They must be the same automorphism.
04:49
12 mins ago, by anon
@MWarsi by "if you conjugate by 2 different elements and they both map one thing to the same place" do you mean "any two conjugation maps $x\mapsto axa^{-1}$ and $x\mapsto bxb^{-1}$ are the same automorphism"?
you never proved that conjugation isn't the inversion automorphism ;?
Yes, I did mean that.
:)
It doesn't matter.
@MWarsi so you're saying "if any two conjugations are identical then everything is conjugation-invariant" ... but how do you first prove that any two conjugations must be the same automorphism?
04:50
(the easiest way I see is proving they're the identity)
I did just say that IF the group has a UNIQUE non-identity automorphism, then this holds.
indeed
Then what is the problem?
prove that any two conjugations define the same auto
It's an implicit assumption.
04:52
I thought your assumption was that there was only one nontrivial auto? Now it's your task to go from that assumption to "any two conjugations define the same auto"
And any conjugation, then, must be it, no?
prove it!
No, no.
Sorry, I did not mean that.
no, not a single conjugation is the non-identity auto
prove they're all the identity :-)
@PedroTamaroff I see they're trying to brainwash you into believing fields are among the big three. Anyway, just take the category with two objects and no non-identity morphisms.
04:54
Assume, that they aren't the identity, ie, that the group is non-abelian. Then, they must be that unique automorphism, from which it follows that it is abelian.
Conradiction.
Thus, they must be the identity and the group must be abelian.
> from which it follows that it is abelian
how?
and I also don't see how that's a contradiction
""if any two conjugations are identical then everything is conjugation-invariant""
why must they all be the non-identity one?
The group being non-abelian and abelian is not a contradiction?!
If they were, then those would be central elements.
04:56
@MWarsi yes that sentence (the one I am responding to) is obvious and agreeable
The group is infinitely large.
ah, nevermind, dumb s
Therefore, unless the whole group is abelian, I can find 2 elements that aren't central, no?
still, you assumed more than one is non-identity
no good reason to
Oh, come on. Now, you guys are just being picky.
I did just show you that I do!
Because its impossible that only one can be and that everything else isn't!
The group is infinitely large, by assumption.
04:57
alright, start from the beginning again
What
No, man, why.
>.<
I've answered all your objections.
as far as I can see, you keep throwing a few non sequitors / leaps
All the assumptions are reasonable.
And justifiable, further.
Okay, like where?
for example, you say "assume that [there are conjugation maps which] aren't the identity, i.e. that the group is nonabelian. then, the nontrivial conjugations must be the nontrivial automorphism." how does it follow from that that the group must be abelian?
@mike @anon youll Drive the fella nuts

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