« first day (1279 days earlier)      last day (4037 days later) » 

08:00
What's the fuss?
@Anthony ok, are confused about showing that union is actually the upper bound?
Look a 13 y.o. quantum theorist.
No... I'm not sure what I'm confused about now. :(
@Anthony You're confused about what you're confused about.
That too.
08:02
@Anthony Do you have the actual proof in front of you?
The short, simple proof. Yes.
:(
You're trying to prove that cuts have the least upper bound property?
"So far, I have managed to unify twistors, loop quantum gravity, and shape dynamics"
has trouble with elementary topology questions, has unified quantum gravity
yep, makes sense
But topology is hard!
@Anthony Try looking at these notes
Loop quantum gravity? Not so much!
Whenever I read LUB I do not think about a least upper bound.
That's why $\sup$ is better.
No double entendres.
08:07
That is the first time I have ever heard someone think "LUB" is entendrable
Okay I think I might have actually found my confusion.
For R, we talk about a cut that actually contains all the other cuts.
Right?
Start from the beginning, please.
There is no cut that contains all other cuts.
08:08
We say we have a non empty collection of cuts, which is bounded above.
However, for every collection of cuts $C$, $\bigcup C$ is a cut and contains them all.
@Anthony OK.
Alright.
Why can't we do the same for Q?
What do you mean...? What does "do the same for Q" mean?
Well it seems the only reason we can establish a least upper bound in R is because we take this Union of the cuts.
I didn't know there were something called Riemann Gas
@Anthony And?
Well similarly, I feel we should be allowed to take any set in Q, and pull it's maximum value.
But we clearly can't because we can, again, look at things like the sqrt(2), where there is no max rational number.
Why do you feel you should be allowed to do so?
08:12
Because we did it for reals, didn't we?
Yes, but the rationals are not the reals.
We said take the union of all the cuts in the set
The point is the reals fix the rationals.
Rationals are fucked up.
@Anthony Maybe this clears things up.
But completeness is showing the reals aren't fucked up, and I'm not seeing why they aren't any less fucked up than the rationals.
As you already know, we can embed the rationals inside the cuts, i.e. inside $\bf R$ by means of $r\mapsto \hat r= \{x\in\Bbb Q:x<r\}$.
It is immediate that set is a cut.
Now, suppose you have a bunch of rational cuts, $\hat r_1,\hat r_2,\ldots$.
The point is $\bigcup\limits_{i\geqslant 1} \hat r_i$ is a cut, but rarely it is a rational cut.
This is similar to this: why doesn't Cantor's diagonal argument show the naturals are uncountable?
Recall Cantor creates a string of zeros and ones from a countable collection of strings of zeros and ones, to create a real that was not in our list. Natural numbers can be thought of, in base two, as sequences of zeros and ones that eventually terminate in $0$. Now, if we have a long list of sequences that eventually zero out, there is no reason why taking the diagonal will produce a sequence of zeroes and ones that also zeroes out.
If the above wasn't clear, see this.
The point is that the reals work nice because they are all of the cuts, but the rationals are just a little subset. The "trick" of joining cuts to create another cut works fine when looking at all of the reals (i.e. all of the cuts) but if we look only at rationals, there is no reason the construction will escape them.
@Anthony You with me?
08:20
Er lemme read that last chunk
I was brushing my teeth.
Pedro occasionally just posts completely unrelated images.
I appreciate this.
He forgets things like the gender of his grandson.
08:22
@PedroTamaroff I happen to be male, at least, I give you that.
@Anthony I appreciate your appreciation.
Oak didn't forget Gary's gender, though.
I'm still confused though @PedroTamaroff.
Thanks for all the help, though.
@Anthony A little less confused, maybe?
It's that he forgot the gender of some random kid, who happened to be one of 8 people tops who lived in Pallet Town
08:24
@Mike That's odd, he was always named some swear word for me.
@Mike Isn't it fun how the next towns have name of colours?
@BalarkaSen I'll take it.
@Pedro No. Life is pain.
@AGirlSaidMySmileIsCute You're breath should stink though, unless your owner feeds you apples everyday.
@Mike Don't go all emotional on me, man.
No, no, I am still lost.
What with?
It would be tragic if you went to sleep still confused.
08:27
Alas, I think it will be the case.
Ignoring the existence of irrational numbers.
Suppose we making the same argument
That we made for why the reals are complete. If we didn't know the irrationals existed, how would we know the proof is wrong?
@Anthony You don't need to know about irrationals.
Certainly we can take any set of rational numbers, and take it's top value, and say that's the upper bound.
Well then why would the proof be wrong?
@Anthony When you say "take its top value" you're assuming such value exists.
@Anthony Write down the proof. Write it in distinct steps. And then for each step, explain why the reals specifically have that step true.
Aren't we with reals as well?
08:29
The reals are defined such that such a value exists.
@Anthony The point is we're not with ALL of the reals.
I know we aren't. But similarly, when we have all the reals, how do we know that some cut exists that is the union of all the cuts in any set?
How is that different than saying we pull a top value from any set of rationals?
@Anthony Define the reals for me.
@Anthony Because we know the unions of sets exists.
If $A,B$ are sets, $A\cup B$ exists.
@Mike aren't they just the set of cuts in the rationals?
@PedroTamaroff But a top value doesn't necessarily exist for a set?
A union does?
08:32
@Anthony Define 'cut'.
@Anthony Right, a "top value" sometimes fails to exist.
Two sets such that all a in A are less than all b in B, and such that A and B partition the Rationals.
For example, $\{r\in\Bbb Q:r^2<2\}$ has no least upper bound in $\Bbb Q$.
@PedroTamaroff That's so annoying. I still don't like that.
Agh.
@Anthony What is annoying?
@Anthony That's not a cut, no.
08:34
The fact that because cuts are sets, we can take a union and be done with it.
@Anthony How is that annoying. It is the awesome part of working with sets.
We know and can do lots of stuff with sets.
That's beautiful bro.
Well, yes. but. :(
In some sense, sets are the most concrete thing there is.
@Anthony OK, so if we have an infinite number of cuts $(A,B)$ (with the 'cut point' bounded above), we can certainly make a new cut $(\bigcup A, \bigcap B)$. Check that this partitions the rationals, that all $a \in \bigcup A$ are less than $b \in \bigcap B$.
08:38
b belongs in whatever the heck it is
Jeeeeez.
So frustrating.
Did I lose you in that line?
beginning pure math @Anthony
Not really... Just slow.
?
same here
slow
08:39
@Anthony Where are you from?
California.
Take your time. When you understand that, you've understood the first important step.
I know us education system sucks we get it ^^
@Anthony What part?
08:40
I'm from Encinitas originally, but I'm up in Berkeley for college.
I'm next door.
Santa Clara.
last semester I had a prof from the Ukraine he said that proofs were taught in middle school
Woooo.
in his country I was like WHOA what the ffffffffffxxxxxxx
and all the analysis courses for undergrad is for freshmen...
not juniors which is at my uni... so damn I feel like ***JKDHWER@*&#
@Anthony Encinitas sounds quite Hispanic.
08:42
@PedroTamaroff It's like an hour or so from the border.
Probably more.
us education system sucks x.x
really
Fuck, I was next door to you then, too.
Palm Desert.
I wish proof techniques were taught fucking earlier
@Mike Haha.
Glad to be out of that hellhole.
08:45
Jeez it's hard for me to really understand that the real numbers are the answer, simply because of this set definition.
After you get done with this, you should look up the Cauchy sequence definition of real numbers.
I always found it more natural (and the metric space definition of completeness makes it far more obvious that your space is complete)
Yeah, hopefully we'll get into that too, I'm in intro to real analysis right now.
Mmm... but to define metric spaces, we need real numbers, don't we?
Meh, not really.
08:46
that's a hard course
Well, you can define a distance in $\Bbb Q$.
In any case, it's the sets that allow for this LUBP.
one of my skype friends is in real analysis and there are 2 grad students in there
@Pedro When you're defining Cauchy sequences on the rationals, just make the metric a map from $\Bbb Q \times \Bbb Q \rightarrow \Bbb Q$
@usukidoll Meh it depends on the school.
08:47
@usukidoll They probably should not be in undergraduate real analysis...
Clearly I'm in the class here, and I'm an idiot.
@Mike Haha. That too.
real analysis ---> under grad course ---> 2 grad students ---> give up man you don't stand a chance
Anyway, I should sleep.
Thank you guys for your help.
because from what my friend told me they can answer all of the questions real fast
real
Night~
08:48
night
@Anthony Good night, and good luck.
@usukidoll The grad students being in the class means they're not good enough to get into the grad real analysis and have to take the undergrad one to catch up :P
Can anyone help me with this problem please?
. Find the volume of the solid formed by rotating the region enclosed by the curves y=e^{4 x} + 4, y=0 , x=0, and x=0.1 about the x-axis.
this is either calc ii or calc iv material
08:57
Calculus 2
errrrrrrrr ._.
09:08
The roots of a general polynomial over $\Bbb{Q}[X]$ of degree $n \geq 5$ is not contained in $\Bbb Q[x_1, x_2, \cdots, x_m]$ for some algebraics $x_1, x_2, \ldots,x_m$ with solvable Galois groups.
Is there any problem stating Abel Ruffini like that?
Just a yes or no.
@Mike
one can say that splitting fields for polys of degree n>4 needn't be solvable. why state it in the slightly peculiar form you have?
I said a yes or no...
@Andy volume of the solid...use a formula sorry tired D"
and I responded how I did
2
That does not stand as an answer. Is that form valid or not?
09:14
it serves its purpose
2
Good, good. Thanks.
Now, for the reason you asked-
it's better to state in a 'field-extensional' form rather than galois theoretic for better understanding.
Thats it.
wat
Hmph. No time to explain it all here now, I am off the pop.
the difference between the two forms is that you replaced "splitting extension" with "extension by a given set of elements," which is superfluous in my opinion
@anon Is it easy?
I need to decide whether I spend a long time to think it alone or just spoil to read the paper.
09:20
easy is relative. (1) skim the paper to see if it's the kind of stuff you'd enjoy thinking through if you did choose to put effort into it, and (2) try following some initial segment (see what I did there) of the paper to test to what extent it's at your level
I doubt if I skim it then it spoils.
@anon Ah, but that depends on the context, of course. Extensions are more needed to here, especially transcendental ones. For example, note that a quintic can be solved in the extension $\Bbb{Q}[X, \vartheta(0|X)]$ (wink)
I have zero idea what you're trying to communicate.
That's why I tried not to communicate much. =D
$\vartheta$s are Jacobi thetas, if you need that, btw.
yes, I'm aware nonsolvable algebraics have hypergeometric series representations
09:24
Thetas aren't hypergeometric (at least not directly), and not all nonsolvables have hypergeometric representation.
If you are referring to generalized hypergeometric functions.
the roots of any general polynomial are A-hypergeometric in its coefficients
GKZ systems aren't hypergeometric.
They are a multivariable extension of them.
i want some help
I only give psychological help in person, I'm sorry.
@BalarkaSen okay, territorial over the vocabulary I see. I suppose I am not prepared for that particular turf war, except to comment that I notice the word "hypergeometric" appears in the adjective "A-hypergeometric"
09:30
@anon =D, but actually I use (as many do) 'hypergeometric' as 'generalized hypergeometric functions'.
For a finite group $G$ and prime $p$, is $|\Bbb F_{p^n}[G]^\times|$ polynomial in $p^n$?
No idea.
Finite groups aren't my forte.
Perhaps @Mike?
Or @Karl.
wat
is that the bewildered wat or the inquisitive what in txtspk?
at first it was the latter, now it's the former
09:35
@anon You are chatroom co-owner? I would have spoken with a little more, uh, respect then if I knew that before. I have been haunted by the fear of banning by mods everytime I come to war-like position with them. Nevermind.
@BalarkaSen anon probably knows that finite groups, finite fields, and group algebras all shred my brain.
@BalarkaSen I don't consider anything you've said disrespectful.
@anon Hm.
That's good then.
$\mathbb F_{p^n}[G]$?
yes, the size of its group of units
09:36
*size of
Oh, nevermind.
Is that a noncommutative ring?
no, for nontrivial G it always has zero divisors
it is noncommutative iff G is noncommutative
I figure $K[G]^\times$ will be $K[G]$ minus a set number of left/right ideals (principally generated by left/right nonunits), so in particular $K[G]$ minus a bunch of proper $K$-subspaces, which can be partitioned according to dimension. as long as tensoring up from ${\Bbb F}_p$ to ${\Bbb F}_{p^n}$ doesn't get too wild it shouldn't destabilize this family of subspaces, which would mean the size is in fact polynomial in $q=p^n$.
What a world. No TNT Qs anywhere and I am answering to one galois theory question. Nevertheless, prove that quintics cannot be solved even in the extension of the solvable numbers equipped with finite composition of algebraic field operators by equipping with the trigonometric functions and thus extending to the closure of $\mathcal {EL}$. Just for kicks.
9 mins ago, by Mike
wat
09:42
@anon I think that video is pure awesome.
@anon Hello, by the way.
hello
@Pedro hello
hellos are transitive, right?
Not really.
But we can take a quotient and make them be transitive.
09:45
t and y confusion.
So no biggie.
@Pedro Are you suggesting we quotient you out?
useless room
3
fairly correct, yes
@Mike I wouldn't mind becoming the unity of the room.
@user41631 Hold on there, cowboy.
Or cowgirl.
09:46
@user41631 Yep, feel free to meet me in person for the resolution of your psychological problems. This room is a terrible place for me to do this kind of work.
not sure if should break out popcorn or false alarm
@PedroTamaroff no cowboy
Can a useful room be created where one can discuss mathematics a bit seriously?
i will ask it on the main site
I am with you.
09:47
Discussing math seriously is not mutually exclusive with nonmathematical banter.
@BalarkaSen That's been tried. Look at the various topic-specific rooms
@Karl I'm always laying sideways on a couch, so I'm always ready for good psychoanalyzing
@ArthurFischer Here's a serious chap.
Yes, here he comes.
...and goes.
@BalarkaSen Are you banning banalities, Balarka?
Oh! The alliteration!
09:49
@PedroTamaroff what?
Looks like I missed seeing A Serious Man
2
@PedroTamaroff I am not bannanaing anything.
Or whatever.
You're missing out
Well, do you know wavelet analysis or something related?
@FrankScience What's a wavelet?
Isn't that physics stuff?
09:52
Yay, the product of two circles is really diffeomorphic to the thing that looks like the surface of a glazed donut.
@KarlKronenfeld CONFETTI.
Lotta starring going on tonight
2
Also, the glaze seems irrephelant.
@PedroTamaroff I don't know exactly, but it's a branch of mathematics.
@PedroTamaroff Just to make the surface smooth.
09:53
@Frank I can pretend to know wavelet analysis.
@Mike LOL @ that starring.
@Karl Dohohoho
@KarlKronenfeld LAWL
In fact, I need to know how significant it is in pure mathematics.
"Significant" might be hard to quantify
09:55
It's hard to quantify, so it's appropriate to ask and discuss rather than quantify.
that's a good point
as an expert in wavelet analysis I can guarantee that it's one of the most important and discussed subjects in modern mathematics
I expect to win a fields medal for my work in wavelet analysis, and give it to Jasper Loy
@Mike smells like grant-hunting season
Have anyone heard of 'serial starring'?
@BalarkaSen Bannanaing.
I know that Fourier analysis is of significance in, at least, analysis.
09:57
@BalarkaSen Yes. Those appear in horror movies.
@FrankScience I thought you were Balarka. Your avatars are pretty similar.
@Mike Do you think $|{\Bbb F}_q[G]^\times|$ would be polynomial in $q$ for fixed characteristic and group?
@anon Is that a group algebra?
I don't know what you're talking about.
I was wondering why a ring would be a polynomial for a second there
@PedroTamaroff yes it involves a group algebra
yeah, spaced off on writing the whole thing
in my defense it is 4am
09:59
I would be unsurprised if it was a polynomial even if you didn't fix $q$
@anon 7am here.
err
currently watching arrow, am enjoying
even if you didn't fix characteristic
@anon Total rip-off.
09:59
@Mike well, I imagine things can go wrong if $|G|$ isn't invertible
i would be surprised if it was not a polynomial in $q$
Rain won't let me sleep.

« first day (1279 days earlier)      last day (4037 days later) »