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15:19
Has anybody a clue what "notable limits" are supposed to be?
leo
leo
@DanielFischer don't know
should depend on context, but it sounds like those long tables of "known" limits that students memorize
Yuck. So I have no chance to find out what is allowed if someone asks "Find the limit of xyz using only notable limits (no Taylor expansion nor L'Hospital)".
15:46
Hey, this is a question that a friend of mine asked a while ago... Although I read the hints given to him, I barely understood most of it. Would really love some help if someone can assist . math.stackexchange.com/questions/568179/…
leo
leo
@DanielFischer in that case, it seems it's the thing I've just said
@DanielFischer which is the question?
leo
leo
16:04
@DanielFischer I think I got it
@leo Consider posting an answer, it might attract an upvote or two.
leo
leo
@DanielFischer look:
\begin{align*}
\left( \frac{1}{\log({x+1})}-\frac{1}{\log({x+\sqrt{x^2+1}})}\right)
&= \frac{\log({x+\sqrt{x^2+1}}) - \log({x+1})}{\log({x+1}) \log({x+\sqrt{x^2+1}})}\\
&= \frac{\log\left[ \frac{ \log({x+\sqrt{x^2+1}}) }{ \log({x+1}) } \right]}{\log\left[\left(x+\sqrt{x^2+1}\right)^{\log({x+1})}\right]} \\
&= \log\left[ \frac{ \log({x+\sqrt{x^2+1}}) }{ \log({x+1}) } \right] - \log\left[{x+\sqrt{x^2+1}}^{\log({x+1})}\right]
\end{align*}
@leo The last step is $$\frac{\log a}{\log b} = \log a - \log b,$$ that's not valid.
leo
leo
@DanielFischer just realized
16:24
I wonder if that limit may be computed easily mentally. It seems to be $1/2$.
Done.
leo
leo
@Chris'ssis :) will you post it?
Hi , anyone knows how to answer math.stackexchange.com/questions/579368/…
leo
leo
well it's a homework question. Maybe hint
@leo MSE doesn't need me.
My question is about how come a definite integral could be a minimum between a few function.
leo
leo
16:32
@Chris'ssis why?
@leo we might like to write the limit as $$\lim_{x\to0}\left( \left(\frac{1}{\log({x+1})}-\frac{1}{x}\right)-\left(\frac{1}{\log({x+\sqrt{x^2+‌​1}})}-\frac{1}{x}\right)\right)$$
leo
leo
@Chris'ssis yep. Why MSE don't need you?
14
Q: Alternative solutions to $\lim_{n\to\infty} \frac{1}{\sqrt{n}}\int_{ 1/{\sqrt{n}}}^{1}\frac{\ln(1+x)}{x^3}\mathrm{d}x$

Chris's sisHere is a limit that can be computed directly by performing the integration and then taking the limit, but the way is rather ugly. What else can we do? Might we avoid the integration? $$\lim_{n\to\infty} \frac{1}{\sqrt{n}}\int_{ 1/{\sqrt{n}}}^{1}\frac{\ln(1+x)}{x^3}\mathrm{d}x$$

@leo kids with no knowledge in calculus modified my questions the way they wanted. Then, when I said I don't agree with that, I was warned by a moderator.
@leo never, but never in this life I'll be active on main.
leo
leo
@Chris'ssis That really really sucks
@leo I'm here for love to math. That's the only reason. I need no point, I need no fame.
leo
leo
16:47
@Chris'ssis That's pretty good. I think that's the way it should be. But it's quite sad they assume you don't know or whatever
@Chris'ssis could you help please?
@Victor where?
0
Q: What is a interesting definite integral function that is equal to the minium of three function?

Victorrelevant question: Integral involving logarithm and cosine What is a interesting definite integral function that is equal to the minium of three functions?

Hey everyone.
@Victor what do you mean by "interesting definite integral function"?
16:55
definite integral function
any definite integral function
@Victor and then "is equal to the minimum of three function". Which functions? Could you better explain that?
The quantity that is equal to the minium of a set of three functions
by saying quantinty i mean number...
@Chris'ssis
Anyone knows a tiny bit about regular languages?
17:13
@TheNotMe I do
Perhaps you can answer a few questions
Maybe but no promises
If nto I now good book
Are those regular:
$\{a^ky \mid y \in \Sigma^* , |y|_a \leq k}$
$\{a^ky \mid y \in \Sigma^* , |y|_a \geq k}$
$\{a^ky \mid y \in \Sigma^* , |y|_a \leq k\}$
$\{a^ky \mid y \in \Sigma^* , |y|_a \geq k\}$
I think I disproved that they are regular with the pumping lemma. Took $w=a^na^n$ and pumped down for the first one and pumped up for the second one
what do you think?
@Chris'ssis why do you think that says you must leave? People were simply mentioning that signatures should not be added to posts and that posts may be edited by others? That does not indicate "go away" to me.
@robjohn - Have you seen a definite integral function that could be the mininum of three different answer?
17:26
@AlecTeal what you think
@Victor I don't understand what you are asking.
0
Q: What is a interesting definite integral function that is equal to the minium of three function?

Victorrelevant question: Integral involving logarithm and cosine What is a definite integral function that is equal to the minium of the set of any three functions?

I have seen that a definite integral could be represent in two differnet forms in the relevant question, i wonder if a definite integral function could be represent as three different forms of a function @ robjohn
@robjohn
@robjohn That was what I felt at that moment. At any rate, I feel fine without being active on main.
@robjohn do you agree with this proof (the chosen one)? math.stackexchange.com/questions/400541/…
@robjohn I think there is a big problem without proving the existence of the limit.
@TheNotMe not sure
Tobias's book "An introduction to compiler design" thefirst section is regular
Okay, thanks
what do u mean?
17:35
about regular languages
the question i gave u is an example there?
brb (I'm preparing some delicious proofs :-))
@robjohn - are you there?
17:59
@Chris'ssis I agree... I have added my own take
@robjohn The problem is that OP requires a special way to find this limit. :-)
@Chris'ssis Shoot. The question said "without L'Hospital"
@robjohn Yeah.
@Victor yes?
@robjohn - Have you seen a definite integral function could be represent as three different forms
18:36
hello
hi all!
19:09
@Victor There are many, but I don't recall any right now.
@Chris'ssis I have removed L'Hospital :-)
@robjohn Really? Let me see that.
@robjohn - Are you able to google one right now? Appreciate in advance
@robjohn That's really great! I've never seen that proof before although I also thought to express things in terms of an infinite series but I didn't do it yet. I upvoted that.
@robjohn I've found an elementary proof in one line. :-))))))))
I know this sounds really crazy. :-)
@robjohn do you wanna see it?
@Chris'ssis I have some integrals for your brain.
@PedroTamaroff Let me firstly write a mind-blowing proof.
19:24
$$\int_0^{\pi}\frac{x dt}{x^2+\sin^2 t}=\frac{\pi}2\frac{1}{\sqrt{1+x^2}}$$
@Chris'ssis Of what?
1
A: Find the limit without use of L'Hôpital or Taylor series: $\lim \limits_{x\rightarrow 0} \left(\frac{1}{x^2}-\frac{1}{\sin^2 x}\right)$

robjohnWe will use that $\lim\limits_{x\to0}\frac{\sin(x)}{x}=1$, which can be shown geometrically. First note that $$ \begin{align} \frac1{\vphantom{()^2}x^2}-\frac1{\sin^2(x)} &=\frac{\sin^2(x)-x^2}{x^2\sin^2(x)}\\ &=\frac{\sin^2(x)-x^2}{x^4}\left(\frac{\sin(x)}{x}\right)^{-2}\\ &=\frac{\sin(x)-x}{x^...

@Chris'ssis One line? Let's see it.
@PedroTamaroff Precisely one line.
@Chris'ssis Depends on the length of your line, but shoot anyways.
@robjohn $-\frac{1}{3}=\lim_{x\to0}-\sum_{k=1}^n \frac{1}{4^k\cos^2\left(\displaystyle \frac{x}{2^k}\right)}=\lim_{x\to0}-\sum_{k=1}^n\left(\frac{1}{4^{k-1}\sin^2\left(\frac{x}{2^{k-1}}\right)}-\frac{1}{4^{k}\sin^2\left(\frac{x}{2^{k}}\right)}\right)=\lim_{x\to0} \left(\frac{1}{x^2}-\frac{1}{\sin^2x}\right)$
Q.E.D.
@PedroTamaroff just posted above
19:32
@Chris'ssis And how do you know your function is continuous at $x=0$? You want an infinite sum.
hello ,i need help for this please
0
Q: Question about "Morse lemma"

Vrouvroui have this theorem and a part of the proof i don't understand why they take an orthogonal projection and how they use the implicite function theorem ?? Please Thank you

@PedroTamaroff I just wrongly typed $n$ instead of $\infty$.
@Chris'ssis Yes, I know.
Thus, how do you know your sum is continuous at $x=0$?
leo
leo
given two algebraic elements $a,b$ over $F$ a field, is it there some way to construct $f(x)\in F[x]$ such that $f(ab) = 0$?
@PedroTamaroff We may consider the lateral limits and we're done.
19:35
@Chris'ssis Explain?
@leo I think you can do something along the lines of linear algebra.
See Ireland and Rosen.
You work with finite modules.
@PedroTamaroff The idea is to interchange the limit and the sum.
@Chris'ssis Yes, but why is that legitimate?
@PedroTamaroff Uniforme convergence?
@Chris'ssis Dunno.
@PedroTamaroff That's it. You may denote that sum as $f_n(x)$
19:40
Proof?
@PedroTamaroff that was supposed to be one line proof. If I add more details it's a bit longer.
@PedroTamaroff the core idea is that I shot it in one line.
@PedroTamaroffor or you may simply use dominated convergence theorem.
leo
leo
@PedroTamaroff yea, of course. Say $[F(a,b) : F] = n$. Then $1,ab,\ldots, (ab)^n$ are l.d. over $F$. That's it
thanks
@leo =)
The problem would be to actually find them expliticly.
leo
leo
yes
@Chris'ssis Nice reference.
leo
leo
I wonder if it is possible to find the coefficients of such an $f(x)$ in terms of the coefficients of the minimal polynomial of $a$ and $b$
@PedroTamaroff Jesus, that was a brilliant shot! :D My nicest limit proof in the last period of time. (last month since I also had an amazing proof for another limit some weeks ago)
@PedroTamaroff let me show you the limit (it's posted here on MSE)
hace la calor hoy
@PedroTamaroff Imagine one needs to do that without Stirling's approximation math.stackexchange.com/questions/538870/…
:D
20:10
@Chris'ssis hi chris :)
@Charlie Hello the great cat! :-) How are you doing?
@Chris'ssis I'm fine, I have some doubts, but I'm fine, and you?
@robjohn I'm sure that for many elementary limits we can make use of the infinite series in a clever way.
@Charlie I'm fine today. :D Thanks. Doubts? Why?
@Chris'ssis on the subject.I'm.studying now
@Charlie Some mathematical subject?
@Charlie I'm listening the song at 0:36 youtube.com/watch?v=Ejk8w4wV79U. Maybe you like it. :-)
20:20
@Chris'ssis if you consider statistics as mathematics... XD
@Chris'ssis I can't see it on my.mobile.:(((
@Charlie Ah, sorry. :-(
@Chris'ssis I'll listen to it asap :)
@Charlie ok :D
@Chris'ssis I loved your avatar
@Charlie This one? It's cute. :D
20:30
@Chris'ssis I think my answer is the only one that does not use L'Hospital or power series methods.
@robjohn did you see my answer above?
@Chris'ssis yes, it is :)
@Chris'ssis let me look. We are going to lunch, so I can't devote much time right now.
@robjohn It's one line only.
@Chris'ssis without justification (that adds some lines)
BBL
20:32
@robjohn OK. I might have written "By DCT ..."
@Chris'ssis oh, Chrissy, this is boring...
@Charlie Why so?
@Chris'ssis things to memorize, boring subject
@Charlie I see. Sorry. :-( Are you a math student?
@Chris'ssis yes :)
20:44
@Charlie Nice! :-)
@Chris'ssis :D
Hmmmmmm
Say $\log x + \log(x + 2) = \log 3$. I would solve this extremely simple equating by noting that $\log 3 = \log 1 + \log( 1 + 2)$ hence $x=1$. And this is correct.
But I have a hard time explaining why it is correct. By doing it the proper way, the left handside turns into a quadratic equating giving two solutions, where the one is thrown away as it is negative.
@robjohn from that limit we can easily elementarily prove $\lim_{x\to0} \frac{x-\sin(x)}{x^3}=\frac{1}{6} $. And from this one, many other problematic limits where only elementary tools are allowed.
20:56
@N3buchadnezzar I'm sure applying the exponential function to both sides is causing a second (negative) solution to appear
@Alizter Thats what I said
@N3buchadnezzar I know
$$\sum^\infty_{n=0}\frac{(n-1)^{1-n}\;\Gamma(n+1, n-1)}{n!}$$
21:31
@Chris'ssis and your puppy?
@Charlie My puppy is lost. :-( It was the being I loved at most in my house.
@Chris'ssis :'(
@Chris'ssis I totally understand
@Charlie They are always sincere, honest, lovely, and never lie. They really care of you.
@Chris'ssis indeed, understand you. I have a lot in common with one of them, so funny:)
@Charlie A dog loves you a whole life.
21:37
@Chris'ssis here is something to cheer you up :) $$\pi = \sum^\infty_{n=0}\sum^\infty_{k=0}\frac{(-1)^k F_{2n}^{-2k-1}}{2k+1}$$
@Chris'ssis yes
@Alizter Oh, thanks! That looks really nice! :-)
@Chris'ssis I have two dogs and I love them very much
@Charlie Really? :-) That's nice.
@Charlie Do they chase you?
21:40
@Alizter the baby one does, she has six.months,.the oldest is 7 yeats old,. Well, I run after her xD
@Charlie I have a pug puppy
also known as a pugpy
@Alizter hahaha @don would like it :P
@PedroTamaroff may I see your ID this is a restricted area!
@Chris'ssis Now that I think about it the Fibonacci numbers should be odd
oops
as in $2n+1$
@Charlie Nice :D
and @Charlie AWWWW
Girl or boy?
21:45
@Alizter girl
Shes beautiful!
@Alizter this is one, I have another :)
@Charlie hehe, dark knight :-)
@Chris'ssis hehege yup and shes so smart!
@Charlie Yeah, I'm sure of that.
21:49
@Chris'ssis and heavy
@Chris'ssis I have another one
$$\pi/4=\sum^\infty_{k=0}\frac{(-1)^k\left(\displaystyle \sum^{\infty}_{n=-\infty}\left(\frac12(3-\sqrt{5})\right)^{(k+1/2)^2}\right)}{2k‌​+1}$$
whoops that k in that power should be a n
22:05
I just created another amazing limit question.
@Charlie you could answer this with Dummit & Foote: math.stackexchange.com/questions/579787/…
cats think alike
Here is the beauty $$\lim_{n\to\infty} \frac{\displaystyle\int_0^1 \left(\frac{\log(2+x)}{2+x}\right)^{n} \ dx}{\displaystyle\int_0^1 \left(\frac{\log(2+x)}{2+x}\right)^{n+1} \ dx}$$
hit us with the beauty
@EnjoysMath Just did it.
ah, but you see beauty layeth in the limbic system of the beholder
22:10
What do you mean?
I mean see here, help me solve this: math.stackexchange.com/questions/579787/…
@EnjoysMath I'm out of practice with abstract algebra. By the way, I don't push you to solve anything, you may simply ignore my posts if you don't like them.
whoa
I do like them, I just don't know what to say about them
How do you solve that one?
22:23
@EnjoysMath I created it in such a way to yield $e$.
how?
are you a wizard?
@EnjoysMath hehe, maybe.
@Chris'ssis I proved $\lim\limits_{x\to0}\frac{\tan(x)-\sin(x)}{x^3}=\frac12$ in a similar way
@robjohn Nice. We can tackle many limits like that. It's nice to find new ways of approaching things. This is great!
@robjohn $\lim\limits_{x\to0}\frac{\tan(x)−\sin(x)}{x^3} =\lim\limits_{x\to0}\left(\frac{\sin(x)}{x} \frac{1-\cos(x)}{x^2}\frac{1}{\cos(x)}\right) =\frac{1}{2}$
@Chris'ssis Would something like this be true $$\lim_{n\to\infty}\sqrt[n]{1+\sqrt[n]{1+\sqrt[n]{1+\cdots}}}=1$$
22:32
@Alizter yes
@Alizter definitely. For instance, you may think of the version where instead of $n$ you have $2$
$1+x=x^n$ has a solution $\sqrt[n]{1+\sqrt[n]{1+\sqrt[n]{1+\cdots}}}$. If $n$ gets larger then is this forcing $x$ to get smaller?
@Chris'ssis actually, it was $\lim\limits_{x\to0}\frac{\tan(x)-x}{x-\sin(x)}=2$.
@Chris'ssis but that can be gotten from what we did
@robjohn Yeah.
@Chris'ssis I think $\lim\limits_{x\to0}\frac{x-\sin(x)}{x^3}$ needs some series approach if you want to avoid calculus.
@Chris'ssis Except you did it without.. Oh, no, you did use a series
22:42
I know I probably shouldn't even be answering questions like this fully as it's probably homework: math.stackexchange.com/questions/578840/…
but it's annoying "How could I go about proving this" and then "oh but I can't use that method"
when the question says "what approach would you recommend"
@robjohn Well, I don't see how we can totally avoid calculus. Even the idea of taking the limit is the core of the calculus. :-)
@Chris'ssis Nah. Limits are part of pre-calc.
zeno's paradox is pre calculus
@Bitrex A Hint is all that is necessary
@robjohn is such a limit studied in precalculus? $\lim_{n\to\infty} \frac{\displaystyle\int_0^1 \left(\frac{\log(2+x)}{2+x}\right)^{n} \ dx}{\displaystyle\int_0^1 \left(\frac{\log(2+x)}{2+x}\right)^{n+1} \ dx}$
22:50
@robjohn and it seems one must sometimes also augur what methods are allowed and which are forbidden!
@Chris'ssis Not with integrals it wouldn't
@robjohn maybe only the basic limits.
0
Q: Solving an ODE with an integral

user109038Let $x$ be a twice differentiable equation. Suppose that the function $x$ satisfies the following integral equation: $x(t)$ + $\displaystyle\int_{0}^{t} \frac{x(s)}{s + 1}\ ds= t+2$ Find the function $x$. I tried finding the integral above by using integration by parts and differentiating $x(s...

4th comment down.
@Chris'ssis By limits, I meant something like $\lim\limits_{x\to0}f(x)$ where $f$ is a function that a precalc student would know
@robjohn ah, ok.
22:55
You wouldn't say that linear equations are not high school algebra just because a high school algebra student couldn't do $a\int_0^xe^{-t^2}\,\mathrm{d}t-bx=0$
23:06
@robjohn I was wondering if $\lim\limits_{x\to0}\frac{x-\sin(x)}{x^3}=1/6$ can be geometrically proved.
23:18
@Alizter That looks a lot like the Fibonacci question from this morning.
@robjohn Didn't see it
23:32
"I'm a rising sophomore in University" For those of us from other parts of the world, does that mean second year, or later?
Can anyone think of a measure such that x^3 \le 1 almost everywhere?
I just pick d_0
dirac measure at 0 but it seems a bit trivial
I mean
@sonicboom Move it to $-\pi^e$.
@DanielFischer Thje dirac measure at $-\pi^e$? :P
@sonicboom Yes, less "trivial" than at $0$ ;)
Since you changed to $\leqslant 1$ a.e., you could also take Lebesgue measure restricted to $[0,1]$, but that's also not very original.
Yea, trivial dirac measures work for all questions I doing here now. I think I'll use the \tau(E) = \int_E f dm measure to mix it up a bit
23:41
@DanielFischer Helloes.
@PedroTamaroff Hola.
@Pedro Hi
Is this the only solution to the following problem? math.stackexchange.com/questions/387555/… I'm troubled at why I can assume there exist open, disjoint sets...
"If the intersection $K$ is disconnected there exist open disjoint"....WHY?
@DonLarynx That is using one possible definition of connectedness.
okay
there's like 20
it's not fair
the definition i am supposed to use is
20? I count 3 or 4.
23:46
If $\bar A \cap B \neq \emptyset$ and vice versa then it is connected
@Pedro
All equivalent, of course.
leo
leo
@DonLarynx who is connected?
You need to be more careful when you write stuff, Don.
"A set is said to be disconnected if it can be written as the union of two separated sets. It is said to be connected otherwise."
Suppose $K$ is separated, as in math.stackexchange.com/questions/387555/…. Then it can be written as the union of two separated sets $A, B$. Therefore $K \subset A \cup B$.
Now if both $K \subset A$ and $K \subset B$ then we have $A \cap B \neq \emptyset$ a contradiction.
Following me here @Pedro?
So we WLOG assume that $K \subset A$.
@DonLarynx I am.
@DonLarynx No, no.
@DonLarynx That is not right.
23:50
Where did I go wrong?
What happens is $K\cap A$ and $K\cap B$ are nonempty.
But it is not true in general that $K$ is contained fully in one of the pieces, precisely because that would not show it is disconnected.
We need to specify "nonempty separated sets."
Equivalently, $K\cap A$ and $K\cap B$ nonempty.
wait
i need to read
your statements
Since we're assuming $K$ nonempty. (the empty set is connected)
$K \cap A$ and $K \cap B$ are nonempty but $A \cap B$ is empty. True @Pedro?
@DonLarynx You mean $\bar A\cap B$ and $A\cap \bar B$; though.
23:52
wait
no more
let me think
We're using the separated sets definition.
Yes but it follows $A \cap B = \emptyset$. Why not?
So as a picture I have
@DonLarynx It is not an assumption, it follows from $A\subseteq \bar A$ or $B\subseteq \bar B$.
A big circle K
containing two circles $A$ and $B$ not intersecting
@DonLarynx Well, you're supposed to have $K=A\cup B$.
23:55
so it's the union of two blocks "A" and "B" = $K$ where $A \cap B = \emptyset$
Yes, separated blocks.
Ok, so $(K \cap A) \cap (K \cap B) = \emptyset$.
But I can simplify this
as $K \cap A \cap B = \emptyset$
True?
@Pedro

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