« first day (1168 days earlier)      last day (4149 days later) » 
00:00 - 20:0020:00 - 00:00

20:00
So how can all the elements of A be in B, if they cannot share elements?
@VaughanHilts they don't share elements wirh each other, but share wirh the set "it comes from"
@VaughanHilts All of the elements of A are in the complement of B.
Oh, I see.
There's another factor at play here, A and B are subsets of an unknown set C.
So if C was {1, 2, 3, 4} then A could be {1, 2} and B could be {3, 4}
A and B cannot share elements - but they can share elements from the parent C.
@VaughanHilts yes
Thank you kindly. :) Now to figure out the rest of the proof.
So I want to show that A intersects B = empty set
20:03
@VaughanHilts that's given, that's what the exercise gave you
A-B^C = empty set

So, the compliment of B would be A, obviously.
And A-A = empty set
This is because B cannot share elements with A, which means anything in its complement must have been in A.. or is there holes in that logic?
There are minor holes, but the big problem is that you are arguing for the converse.
As Charlie says, you need to show that when A and B are disjoint they satisfy A-B^c=empty
So I start by assuming A-B^C = empty set is true, and try and make it look like A Intersects B is empty, right?
@VaughanHilts nope, nope, you want to prove A-B^c is empty, so you , by logic , can't start assuming what you don't know ifb it's true
heh, I feel like there's a fundmental flaw in my understanding of proofs.
20:08
@VaughanHilts unless, you assume A-B^c is NOT empty, then by logic, you would find A and B are not disjoint, by contradiction
@karl is is.it^ right? O.o
@Charlie What you said directly above is right, though it would be called contrapositive.
Are you sure that's contrapositive?
I was taught that it was by contradiction.
@KarlKronenfeld ah,.phew,.i.write first then I thought, thanks
i.e: I was told assuming the conclusion was false is contradiction
@VaughanHilts There is a subtle distinction, let me write it up.
20:13
I was told the contrapositive in this case would be If A-B^C != empty set, then A and B are not disjoint nonempty subsets
@VaughanHilts A proof by contrapositive is showing directly that implication.
@VaughanHilts yes, A=>B then ~B=>~A
Ah, okay.
A proof by contradiction is where you assume two things, both the hypothesis and the negation of the conclusion. Then, you prove any false statement by sound logic.
Hm, oklay.
20:17
@KarlKronenfeld thanks, krispy Karl
How do you press "pollen / sand" hash into solid hash?
@Charlie I see you have adopted the proper spelling of "krispy". :)
@KarlKronenfeld ;)
So to be clear, when I'm proving an if.. then statement.
I assume the beginning parts, the if, right?
And then try to prove the then?
correctomundo
^_^
20:21
@VaughanHilts yup
So, if for some reason I decided I was trying to direct proof this (even though tit's not the easiest way, clearly) I would start by re-writing A disjoin, not-empty subsets into something and trying to make it appear to prove the latter?
Although, righ toff the bat that looks like an enormous taks since I wouldn't even know how to break that down symbolically :)
One thing to do is to assume the intersection of A and B is empty (your hypothesis), and start calculating A-B^c.
I.e. say x is in A-B^c if and only if blah blah blah (definition of difference of two sets)
Isn't that a contradiction?
Eventually you will get "x is in A-B^c if and only if false statement", but your proof is still direct!
You simply proved that A-B^c has no elements.
Yes, that's what I tried proving above :)
20:27
I was beginning to question whether I misread your argument, sorry.
@VaughanHilts if x is in A-B^c then x is A but nit in B^c. If it's not in B^c then...
"A-B^C = empty set

So, the compliment of B would be A, obviously.
And A-A = empty set
This is because B cannot share elements with A, which means anything in its complement must have been in A.. or is there holes in that logic?
"
I tried.. somewhat to explain something along those lines above :)
@VaughanHilts Are you assuming A-B^c is empty? or are you just writing what you want to prove?
I wanted to show that was the case
I could see in front of me that must be the case.
(The first "obvious" statement is false btw)
20:29
But I couldn't quite see why I came to that conclusion.
@VaughanHilts The "direct" method you're talking about is called a conditional proof. Assume $\psi$. Derive $\phi$. Then we are able to conclude $\psi \rightarrow \phi$ is true.
Hm, okay. :)
@VaughanHilts lets recall: if x is in B, then is not in B^c.
I apologize for being dense but what does $A - B$ mean when $A$ and $B$ are sets?
Remove all elements of B from A.
20:36
@KevinDriscoll $\{a\in A:a\not\in B\}$.
So its $A - B = A \cap B^c$
I'm going to post a question on it so we can get it all in one post :)
:11698093 The forward slash seems to be a symbol reserved for the quotient group. The back slash "\setminus" is indeed an alternative notation.
@VaughanHilts look: x.is in A, but not in B^c, then x is in B, but x.is in A, but ee are saying x is in B! Oh noes, contradiction, because they are ....
20:39
@Karl Yeah was trying to figure out the TeX command. $A \setminus B$
@Charlie Right, OK. :)
oh no thats not it either
$\setminus$ it really is "\setminus"
@Karl thanks
@VaughanHilts got.it?
20:41
@Charlie I think so :)
@VaughanHilts say, if you did not
Nope, I think I do get that :)
@VaughanHilts ah, splendid!!! :)
Now, I Just need to practice more and commit it to memory so I don't goof up in a few days time :)
@VaughanHilts take your time, make some.drawings ;)
20:47
Venn diagrams are your friend
3
This can be proven by cases, right?
All I need to do is assume x is 2k and 2k+1 alternatively, and sub in.. I think.
@VaughanHilts Yes. It a biconditoinal so you should prove both directions. Using the cases of $x = 2k$ and $x=2k+1$ show the relationship from left to right. Then do the same thing from right to left.
So it'd be 4 cases total, right?
@VaughanHilts Yes, but I wouldn't group them that way. Its 2 cases for left to right and 2 cases for right to left
You will get contradictions in half of those cases.
20:52
@VaughanHilts I say this because the number of cases going each direction is more important than the total number.
Hm, plugging 2k into 3x+1 gives 6k+1
That's not really the form of anything, I guess it's debately an even number.
Er odd.
2(3k)+1 I guess will do :)
@VaughanHilts Just divide it by 2. If the result is an integer it is even. otherwise, odd.
Isn't rewriting as 2(3k)+1 OK as well?
@VaughanHilts So it turns out ($3x + 1$ is even) is a false statement when $x = 2k$. What does this say about the statement If ($3x +1$ is even), then ($5x-2$ is odd)?
@VaughanHilts It's suggestive enough for me, but I don't know how strict you need to be
It would seem so, that means 5x-2 is odd must then be false.
Since it can only be true if the first is true, no?
21:01
@VaughanHilts Nope! Look at the truth table for $p \rightarrow q$ (have you done truth tables or is all this logical nonsense new to you?)
I have.
<-> would say it's only true if they're both T OR both F
@VaughanHilts OH YES! You're trying to do the whole biconditional at once. Yes yes.
Oh, this is an -> you're asking.
I was doing each direction separately, but if you can do it the way you wer ethinking its faster
Well, bi-conditionally this would imply it's gotta be false, dosen't it?
That's the only way the statement can be true.
21:02
Indeed
Then, I just need to plug 2k into 5x-2 or 2k+1 in
And do it other direction?
Well, you have shown that for $x=2k$ the left side is false, so you must now show that under the same assumption the right side is also false
So plug in 2k
Then i get 10k-2 which cannot really be factorized out easy.. drat :)
whatever you have to do to show that the right side is false (just trying to think more abstractly so that the general idea is clear, not just for this particular example)
Right.
But I can't just plugin some value.
21:05
Oh, no, definitely not
i.e: I can show for that 2 it's false
gotta show for all integers tha tits false
i.e: 5*2 - 2 is indeed 8 and not odd
5(2k) - 2 is 10k-2
I need to show that it's not odd, so thus I want to make it even
So I guess I can express it as -3 + 1
So 10k - 3 + 1
@VaughanHilts You're right that its not obvious, so try applying the definition of even/odd. What happens when you divide $10k-2$ by $2$?
@KevinDriscoll O.o
21:07
Well, isn't 2(5k-1) enough?
I mean, 5k is an integer and subtracting tow integers gives an integer.
Thus, 2*some integer msut be an integer, and thus it must be even.
@VaughanHilts Yup, that's also enough
And since it's not even, it must be odd.
Sorry, explain that last step again. $2*(5k-1)$ must be even so....?
This means that the right hand side must be false, and since both sides are false, this makes the conclusion of this statement true. No?
Exactly!
So thats the first case
21:09
Then just repeat for odd.
And if it ends up being true, prove the other is true.
And if not, find they are both false.
Indeed. (hint: you will find that they're both true)
Yeah, I just figured that out on paper now :)
Excellent - I feel like I'm getting a little better at this :p
LIke everything, just takes more and more practice
An unfortunate realization :)
Haha, that depends on your perspective. Everything is hard work, but a the same time, everything is possible
21:14
Well, I don't mind practice at all :)
It's practice under pressure that's a bit breaking ;)
If $f : X \to Y$ is a linear map then for any convex set $H \subset X$, $f_H: H \to f(H)$, inverse images of extreme subsets of $f(H)$ under $f_H$ are extreme subsets of $H$. I just thought you guys should know :)
22:17
@Charlie
:11699750 :) there should be math jax for mobile
lol stuff I have from the past year
@Ethan how are you , Ethan?
@Charlie
@Ethan :D :D
@Ethan xD
22:25
@KevinDriscoll I was thinking about this question again math.stackexchange.com/questions/523315/…
@KevinDriscoll (my previous answer was wrong.) But the minimal path would be the same path taken by a negatively charged particle at A with a positively charged particle at B
@Bitrex I dont understand the negitive/positive claim
@KevinDriscoll Electrostatics, basically.
@Ethan oh, sorry, I'm not bobba fett
cause hes a bounty hunter, i get it
not big on star wars, saw part of one movie I think
@Bitrex So there is a negative particle at A and a positive one at B, what determines the path?
22:29
in general I am not really big on many movies though
@KevinDriscoll The principle of least action.
@Ethan See the first 3 movies, don't bother with the recent ones
@Ethan I like, not crazy 'bout it, but I like
@Bitrex what material is the blue stuff made out of?
lol sounds boring
@Ethan just watch!
22:31
@KarlKronenfeld That's what I'm trying to figure out - some constraint on the Lagrangian that forces the particle onto a path across the blue stuff colinear with the center of the circle.
It is entirely non-obvious to me that the path of a particle from $A$ to $B$ will minimize the distance between the two
@Ethan what do you do in your free time?
Study math, listen to music, and watch television sometimes
@Bitrex if the blue stuff is a neutral condutor, then all of the electric field lines must terminate normal to the surface, both inside and outside
@Ethan ah, interesting
22:34
@Eh nevemrind though thats not particularly helpful
not really
lol
is there a lattice-theoretic characterization of products of ideals in dedekind domains?
join and meet are intersection and addition respectively
@anon good question anon
ah, charlie humors me
@KevinDriscoll If I put two oppositely charged particles somewhere in space near each other, one of them fixed, will the unfixed one not move towards the fixed one by the shortest path possible?
22:36
@Bitrex does it start from rest?
Yah.
@anon :D
@Bitrex if you neglect magnetic effects, then for 2 particles in free space yes
@KevinDriscoll Yes, if one already had some velocity not parallel to the other particle it falls apart
@Bitrex what you really want is 2 particles interacting throuhg the gravitational force, that way there are no magnetic effects
22:38
what is this
@KevinDriscoll Ok, sure. The mathematics is the same.
@Bitrex gavitostatics and electrostatics are the same yes, but if you use charged particles you do have to neglect some things
@Ethan I don't know, but it's exciting
@Bitrex I am still not sure how the 'blue stuff' will affect this though. Its certainly true for 2 guys in free space..... but put some other mass distribution between them and I don't know
@Bitrex actually I do know. The unfixed particle will accelerate straight towards the center of mass of the system, if it starts 'outside' the other mass dictributions
@KevinDriscoll The blue stuff is just a barrier that constrains the motion somehow. But even with it there the particle will still follow the shortest path, within the constraint set by the barrier
I just don't know how to formulate the constraint that it must stay on the same theta while it's in the barrier.
22:42
@Bitrex if the barrier is massless, yeah it will follow what would be the shortest path to B if the barrier weren't there
Yup.
But that's not what you want
that is, particles moving under gravity are not like light. they don't "know' what the shortest path form A to B is
If the barrier is massless, the one particle will just move straight toward the other
which is not the right answer
@anon how are you doing?
I am le tired
what do you think about that @Bitrex?
22:44
also, I have to go again
@anon bye
@KevinDriscoll I don't think the particle has to "know" anything. I think that by the principle of least action, the particle will take the shortest path from A to B, given whatever constraints I may put on its motion
so long as the path is physically realizable.
@Bitrex it will only do that if you construct the mass distribution of the barrier the right way
If the barrier is massless, this will certainly not work
A will just move straight toward B
Yep.
because thats the way the gravitational field points
but we know that's not the right answer, because the line connecting A and B does not satisfy the constraint
and if you posit that the blue stuff is made so that it only lets particles move radially
(say its something like a bunch of radial sheets of metal that have a very small distance between them)
22:48
Right
then what will happen is that A will move straight toward B, hit into one of the slits and roll radially in, and then go toward B
but if you draw it, this path does not minimize the distance
What path minimizes the distance?
the path you just described certainly looks like the path given in the answers
@Bitrex Continue out the line from A to C. You will see that it does not intersect B.
or p to q rather
I think what you have there is a misleading picture
ah balls no that doesn't quite prove what I meant
Looks like pa dq are not parallel, but paq are not colinear either.
Hi @pedro
23:01
@Charlie 'ello.
@PedroTamaroff whats up?
@Charlie Kinda tired, long day.
@PedroTamaroff oow
@KevinDriscoll You were right. In the "gravity" interpretation, the particle will follow the shortest path to the outer ring. But then once it's constrained by the blue stuff, I see that all bets are off whether the total path length will be minimal.
@Charlie You?
23:02
@Bitrex Yes, this is what I meant
Gotcha.
@Bitrex The idea still may work if you construct a barrier with the appropriate mass density, but doing so seems tricky
@PedroTamaroff not much, I'm happy that my doggy is fine, I slept nothing last night, but I'm ok :)
@Charlie What happened to yer dag?
@PedroTamaroff it's another dog, we found her, she got hit by a car, but shes great now, we're taking care of her
23:06
@Charlie Ah, good.
@PedroTamaroff shes just a baby :)
@Charlie Woah, how did a car hit her without killing her?
@PedroTamaroff I don't know, is incredible, she was just having problems to walk, now shes running, and playing
@Pedro are you aware that 'dag' or 'dago' is a slur against Italians?
@KevinDriscoll No, why?
Did you know there is a planet with no orbit?
23:16
@KevinDriscoll I'm just a bit italian, it's ok
@Pedro Wiki says that it was originally from the Spanish "Diego" but doesnt give an explanation for how it came to target Italians
@KevinDriscoll It is common that an ethnicity is identified by a common name of their members.
@Pedro Quite true there, Juan.
I am not aware of Italians useing "Diego" though
@KevinDriscoll Now hold it, Johnny.
Should be giuseppe
23:18
@Pedro Don't push it, Jose
@KevinDriscoll Your names strike me as more Mexican to me.
You should go with...
Others.
You find out.
I will not tell.
=D
@Pedro That's the point. To uneducated Americans all latinos are Mexican
@KevinDriscoll I love the scene of Braking Bad, when Jesse says "What if the instructions are in Mexican and stuff?"
@anon
@Pedro I still haven't started watching it. Maybe some day.... But I make the same joke, but instead I wonder if the instructions will be in "Canadian"
(I'm sure Jesse didn't intend it as a joke, being a bit of a dunce)
@KevinDriscoll Indeed, the joke is in the series itself.
23:31
@Pedro Maybe I should sue for royalties?
@KevinDriscoll Yeah. I'll back you up.
And I'll take share.
At any rate, I made you aware of this.
Apparently someone's (claimed to have) proved Schanuel’s conjecture (which implies that $\pi+e, e^{\pi}$ etc are transcendental)
The guy seems legit and the paper doesn't scream crackpot
@DanielRust Just kidding, of course.
23:41
Apparently he visited Makoto Matsumoto (the guy that (hopefully) proved the abc conjecture)
@DanielRust Dunno what's that either.
But I know it is stylized as ABC.
It's a theorem which implies Fermat's last theorem
@DanielRust Has anyone been able to prove an upper-bound on the time it will take to verify/debunk that ABC conjecture proof?
there's some casual chat about it on MO I think @Kevin
@Daniel Okay, cool. Perhaps I'll check it out. I read about if from Tao et al (I think) whne it was announced, but it mustve been at least a year now
23:43
yet coming up to a year
It's been a big year for maths tbh
ABC, prime gaps, odd Goldbach, now maybe this
@DanielRust What does the ABC conjecture say, imply, &c?
i think the statement's quite technical but I know it's at least as strong as FLT
ie ABC=>FLT
@DanielRust FLT?
Fermat's Last Theorem
@DanielRust Right, so FLT, not FTL.
=)
23:46
i guess it's Wiles' theorem now
oh sorry haha
@DanielRust Fermat's Conjecture, Wiles' Theorem.
Landau calls it Conjecture, and calls Fermat's Theorem that $a^{p-1}=1\mod p$.
@DanielRust MO says it actually only applies an asymptotic version of FLT
oh right
@DanielRust I'm still waiting....Riemann, Hodge, Birch.Swinnerton-Dyer......
Riemann seems so unattainable now that I feel like it must come down to some subtle question in logic/foundations
like the continuum hypothesis
'potential' and 'actual' infinities can go suck a dick
2
i think it's only people that rely on washed-down philosophical arguments that think those things have any meaning
lol wait
That group is actually active!/
00:00 - 20:0020:00 - 00:00

« first day (1168 days earlier)      last day (4149 days later) »