CONLOQVIVM

Jasper May

4:49 AM

@Cerberus K

Joonas Ilmavirta

5:59 AM

@Cerberus What kind of math was that?

Jasper May

@Cerberus Do you use a site for tutors or place ads?

tony

9:06 AM

@Cerberus: Does the name "Admiral de Ruyter" mean anything to you?

Cerberus

1:14 PM

@JasperMay I do nothing. People just pass around my name and contact me.

@tony Certainly, he was a very famous Dutchman, who defeated the Spaniards time and again.

And later the English, I think.

@JoonasIlmavirta I don't know what to call this!

It's fourth-grade Mathematics A (those who are good at mathematics usually choose Mathematics B rather than A).

The exercise was about a company that has certain maximum capacities with respect to labour, machine time, and materials.

So we had to draw the area of possibilities.

This is probably sub-exercise d of an exercise that goes to g or something.

Joonas Ilmavirta

@Cerberus I think that's called linear programming.

Typically one is given linear constraints and then finally one needs to optimize some linear quantity.

Cerberus

@JoonasIlmavirta Because the formulae are linear here?

Joonas Ilmavirta

@Cerberus Yeah, although I'm not a fan of the name.

Linear programming

Linear programming (LP, also called linear optimization) is a method to achieve the best outcome (such as maximum profit or lowest cost) in a mathematical model whose requirements are represented by linear relationships. Linear programming is a special case of mathematical programming (also known as mathematical optimization). More formally, linear programming is a technique for the optimization of a linear objective function, subject to linear equality and linear inequality constraints. Its feasible region is a convex polytope, which is a set defined as the intersection of finitely many half spaces...

Cerberus

By the way, in Mathematics A, they also use various non-linear formulae (just not in this chapter).

@JoonasIlmavirta Ah, I see.

Joonas Ilmavirta

@Cerberus That's great! Too many students get the impression that everything is linear, including square roots and sines.

Cerberus

1:26 PM

Uhh how can roots be linear?

Joonas Ilmavirta

It seems to take a long time for students to appreciate the structure linearity gives in the cases when it's available.

Cerberus

Hmm.

Joonas Ilmavirta

@Cerberus They can't, but I've seen quite a few $\sqrt{x+y}=\sqrt{x}+\sqrt{y}$.

Cerberus

I do tell all the time they should be glad, when they have linear formulae.

Joonas Ilmavirta

Right, chat doesn't support MathJax.

Cerberus

1:27 PM

@JoonasIlmavirta Yes, I have seen that.

Joonas Ilmavirta

@Cerberus Thank you for that! Not many highlight enough that it's something unusually convenient.

Cerberus

Though doubt whether those children are really thinking about linearity at all. They just try stuff because they don't know how to proceed...

@JoonasIlmavirta In many situations, they realise it themselves!

Joonas Ilmavirta

Trying stuff is good. There's no way to learn to master something like playing with it.

Cerberus

For example, solving any equation containing an exponent makes things more difficult—that they know.

Joonas Ilmavirta

But that of course requires that the attempts are sensible and not stuff like linear roots.

Cerberus

1:30 PM

Sensible, you say? That is like asking fire to be cool.

Joonas Ilmavirta

What age are the kids on fourth grade there?

Cerberus

15–16

Joonas Ilmavirta

@Cerberus Perhaps comparing to myself is unfair...

Cerberus

They did lots of functions with exponents last year.

@JoonasIlmavirta Heh. In this case, probably.

Joonas Ilmavirta

But I find the ability to tell what makes sense and what doesn't to be one of the most important skills in math, if not the single most important one.

Cerberus

1:31 PM

Children often don't have time for that.

They're always behind, always in a hurry.

Joonas Ilmavirta

@Cerberus I can be average many ways, but I think not in math.

Cerberus

No, indeed.

Joonas Ilmavirta

@Cerberus Here that age would be something like the first year of high school. Or lyceum.

Cerberus

Last year, my other people (same grade) really liked inaequalities(?) with quadratic functions.

It made sense to her.

Joonas Ilmavirta

@Cerberus Stopping to think is a virtue not often employed.

Cerberus

1:33 PM

@JoonasIlmavirta Oh, I see. A lycaeum would start at 11–12, like any high school here.

Joonas Ilmavirta

They might be shocked to hear how long a math researcher can be thinking of a single problem...

Cerberus

Most probably.

Many children who do poorly on mathematics would be fine if they had more time.

Joonas Ilmavirta

@Cerberus It's spelled inequality in English. The diphthong ae rarely survives.

Cerberus

More time to study and exercise, and more time to actually complete the test.

@JoonasIlmavirta Ah, but it's Latin.

The term was otherwise correct?

Joonas Ilmavirta

@Cerberus It's also a matter of mindset. I've seen a lot of people decide math is impossible for them.

@Cerberus For stuff like x^2<4? Yes, that's precisely the term.

@Cerberus Used to be. :(

@Cerberus Around that age kids here start what translates directly to "upper school". After three years of that there's three years of lyceum/highschool/doesn'ttranslatewelltoenglish.

Cerberus

1:36 PM

@JoonasIlmavirta Exactly. I always tell them they can do it, if they just have enough time.

@JoonasIlmavirta Yes, that.

@JoonasIlmavirta I see.

At 12, all children go to either vmbo, havo, or vwo (highest level). Various schools have 1 or two years in which children don't have to decide yet.

Some schools offer all three levels, others only one or two.

And gymnasium is like a specialisation of vwo.

And a gymnasium is a school that offers only gymnasium.

A lyceum offers havo and vwo (and probably also gymnasium).

Joonas Ilmavirta

Our lyceum (in Swedish gymnasium) is roughly age 16-19. Students can also choose a more applied school instead of that.

Cerberus

And atheneum is another word for vwo (I think) without gymnasium.

19, even!

Joonas Ilmavirta

The common and compulsory school is in two stages, 6+3 years, starting at age 7.

Cerberus

So you don't have to go too school when you're 4–6?

Joonas Ilmavirta

@Cerberus It's the thing right before university. Some will graduate a little younger, but under 18 is very rare.

@Cerberus Nope.

Cerberus

1:41 PM

Here, one normally graduates at 18 when going to university.

@JoonasIlmavirta Interesting.

Joonas Ilmavirta

There's kindergarten which many parents choose to put their kids to, but nothing compulsory. The last year of kindergarten is called pre-school, and that's very rare not to go to.

@Cerberus It's weird how the Bologna process standardizes university level studies but the foundations before university vary greatly.

Not that I'd blame anyone for that, but the realization of different backgrounds and school cultures sometimes causes difficulties.

Cerberus

Quite a lot!

I do feel, however, that non-European students usually cause the most problems at our universities.

From what I read.

Joonas Ilmavirta

@Cerberus So the Dutch have to go school from age 4 to 18?

@Cerberus Due to language skills or otherwise?

Cerberus

@JoonasIlmavirta I think it's 5–17.

@JoonasIlmavirta Language and culture.

The cliché is that students were not taught to think in Asia, only memorising.

But also language, yes, to a great degree.

Joonas Ilmavirta

@Cerberus Here it's nine years, starting at age 7.

Cerberus

1:45 PM

That's quite a bit less!

Joonas Ilmavirta

@Cerberus I've seen an unfortunate number of Asians with insufficient English skills. Apparently the language is not given enough emphasis in their education system (which I'm utterly unfamiliar with).

The numbers in Wikipedia vary quite a bit between countries.

In Israel they start at 3!

@Cerberus There's truth to that. They can work harder, but it can take a while to learn thinking on their own.

Cerberus

2:06 PM

@JoonasIlmavirta Could be, and/or the language is just much harder for them.

@JoonasIlmavirta You probably have experience with them?

Joonas Ilmavirta

@Cerberus My department has had quite a few Asian grad students (mostly Chinese). While I haven't supervised or otherwise worked with them, I've interacted otherwise and spoken with more directly involved people.

@Cerberus That's possible, but I'm not buying it so quickly. Finnish is far from English as well, both in structure and soundscape, but Finns manage English (to varying extents).

But to be fair, I don't know practically anything about Chinese.

Cerberus

@JoonasIlmavirta And the department experienced some issues with them?

@JoonasIlmavirta That is true, but Finns are probably exposed to a ton of English from a young age, as are Dutchmen?

Joonas Ilmavirta

@Cerberus Some, but not all. Many struggle to learn the language well enough, but they can make good students like anyone else.

Cerberus

Of course they can.

But, if it takes years and/or they cannot adapt fast enough on their own, that is a problem.

Joonas Ilmavirta

@Cerberus Quite possibly more than their Chinese counterparts. I suspect it has more to do with the English teaching methods. I understood that there's a big difference.

Cerberus

2:18 PM

Oh?

Most of my English I didn't learn in school.

Joonas Ilmavirta

@Cerberus Indeed. And if they don't know enough English to communicate math and groceries, they can't get started.

Cerberus

Yeah.

And universities don't have the support they would need.

Joonas Ilmavirta

@Cerberus I guess me neither, but school did build a lot of foundations.

@Cerberus Nor the will to provide it. They'd rather find a more suitable candidate.

Cerberus

@JoonasIlmavirta School probably did more for us than we realise.

@JoonasIlmavirta Of course.

Joonas Ilmavirta

@Cerberus I've heard miscellaneous stories about not writing English with the Latin alphabet and not learning to pronounce and only learning to translate and similar.

@Cerberus It's hard to compare. There's no unschooled parallel life.

Cerberus

2:21 PM

> not writing English with the Latin alphabet

!

@JoonasIlmavirta Not in our countries, no!

Joonas Ilmavirta

Yes, I've heard they use Chinese symbols to write English at first, and sometimes for quite a time.

Cerberus

Interesting.

Joonas Ilmavirta

@Cerberus And especially not in our specific lives.

Cerberus

I wonder, though: what URL do they use to visit Baidu or Aliexpress?

Joonas Ilmavirta

School isn't mostly about concrete and specific facts although it formally promotes them. Ways of thinking, conversing, understanding, and working bear more weight.

Cerberus

2:23 PM

@JoonasIlmavirta No, indeed.

@JoonasIlmavirta I'm not sure about "mostly", but I agree.

I rather meant English as a subject in high school.

Joonas Ilmavirta

@Cerberus Perhaps they have an app? I've seen Finnish students be clueless about URLs too. They'd use Google to find their email provider's login.

Cerberus

@JoonasIlmavirta I do that, too, the latter.

I feel handicapped without Google.

Joonas Ilmavirta

I suppose one could go pretty far with an URL-free life, given a suitable set of devices.

Cerberus

Or just Google!

Joonas Ilmavirta

But I feel helpless without the technical level of control that comes with typing an URL or knowing my directory path.

@Cerberus True! It only takes having Google as your browser's starting page and you're all set.

@Cerberus So do I.

Cerberus

2:27 PM

@JoonasIlmavirta So do I.

Joonas Ilmavirta

I remember being in China a couple of years ago and it occurred to me that Google doesn't work there. I knew it was blocked, so I needed another search engine. My next thought was to google for one...

Cerberus

My mother, for example, cannot tell whether a certain dialogue came from a website or from Windows. That level of not understanding one's computer is just unimaginable to me.

@JoonasIlmavirta Haha, of course.

Joonas Ilmavirta

@Cerberus Same here.

I've heard people in IT complain that many people can't install a program although it only involves opening an install wizard, clicking OK a dozen times and making two or three simple choices. They just see popups as some dangerous magic instead of reading them and figuring things out.

Cerberus

Hehe.

Adam

We see this at work a lot. People sometimes don't understand the difference between Windows explorer and a web browser.

Joonas Ilmavirta

2:30 PM

Trying to teach software to such students can be a pain.

Cerberus

It is true that computers and operating systems and the way we have to work with them were never designed with security as a primary concern. People just don't know how to tell whether something is safe.

Joonas Ilmavirta

@Adam The fun ends (or begins if you're so oriented) when you need to help one of those people over the phone.

Cerberus

@Adam Windows what? A b—br—oh, I give up.

Adam

The funny thing is no one is born knowing how to use computers or understand how the web works. You have to use it, read, and learn it. To me the problem isn't that it's hard to understand, it's that some people just don't want to put the effort into understanding it

Cerberus

My friend who is doing his master's in mathematics is hopeless with computers.

@Adam Yeah, that is a big part.

Adam

2:32 PM

@JoonasIlmavirta Thankfully I have only only need to help through text means. I'm not sure how much patience I would have on a phone.

Joonas Ilmavirta

@Cerberus Safety concerns are legitimate, but it often goes more towards helplessness. "What do I do now that the thing asks if I want to save before exiting?" I feel silly that it genuinely helps that I tell them to decide whether they want to save the file before exiting the program.

Adam

My work involves helping people through Facebook and Twitter, so everything is skewed by the effect social media has on the behavior of people.

Joonas Ilmavirta

@Adam You'll typically waste less time driving across town to help in person, I'd say.

Adam

@JoonasIlmavirta Yes, I actually prefer helping in person to the phone. I have a bias in that I hate talking on the phone for any reason, though.

Cerberus

@JoonasIlmavirta Haha, yes.

Joonas Ilmavirta

2:35 PM

@Adam That reminds me of a French class I took years ago. I followed happily when the teacher told some basic grammar, but a bit later someone had to ask what this "adjective" thing is. It's very hard to get far without understanding basic structures.

Cerberus

But on the other hand I understand this helplessness.

It often seems 100% obvious when you already know stuff about the process. Save means save. But does it really?

Joonas Ilmavirta

@Adam Same here. Just today I hung up on an electricity salesman.

Cerberus

@Adam How do you like video calls? I find them quite draining. And there is always some lag compared to phone calls, at least for me.

Joonas Ilmavirta

But it's the most aggressive and irritating power seller in Finland.

Adam

@JoonasIlmavirta very true! I appreciate in Wheelock that he takes the time in the beginning of the book to explain basic grammar. Not because I don't understand basic grammar, but because it's also been 30+ years since I learned it and you take for granted that you use grammar all the time w/o thinking about what it is.

Cerberus

2:37 PM

@JoonasIlmavirta That's not allowed here!

Joonas Ilmavirta

@Cerberus I find it too awkward to request anyone to turn off their video so I can hear them. The bandwidth is often too narrow in some place for all media to work.

Adam

@Cerberus They are draining for me as well, but mostly because of the social interaction which would be the same as in person. I guess I've gotten used to them, though.

Cerberus

@JoonasIlmavirta Hmm do you really think that is the issue, video slowing down the audio?

Joonas Ilmavirta

To be honest, I learned about Finnish grammar when studying Latin. They don't teach other languages as systematically and structurally, I'm afraid.

Adam

I have really great internet speeds, so it's not usually to much of a problem unless someone else has bad internet. Or if Google is taking a shit again.

Joonas Ilmavirta

2:39 PM

@Cerberus Sometimes it is. Not always, but if the speed is insufficient, one should reserve it for the main content.

Cerberus

@Adam Hmm I find that even talking to friends via video call requires much more 'energy' than just sitting on a couch together.

Joonas Ilmavirta

@Cerberus I share that feeling. Being present through a webcam and microphone is somehow more of a chore.

Cerberus

@Adam I have a good conexion as well (very stable 100/30), but video-calling programmes or sites still often say my conexion is meh. I think it may be this old laptop.

I'm also close to the world's largest Internet exchange (I think), so the pathing should also be fine.

Joonas Ilmavirta

@Adam The group doesn't have to be large for someone to be likely to have issues. It could just be their kids starting to stream a movie and draining all their bandwidth.

@Cerberus Do they exchange stacks there too?

Cerberus

@JoonasIlmavirta Yeah. I think it has to do with lag, audio quality, and perhaps the fact that you cannot hear the other person very well when you're talking yourself.

@JoonasIlmavirta No, stacks of flowers and tulip bulbs are exchanged at the flower exchange.

Joonas Ilmavirta

2:42 PM

@Cerberus It also plays a role, at least to me, that the presence is so partial both ways. We can't share a lunch. I can't point at a book. We can't draw in the same picture.

Cerberus

Stacks of Latin at the Latin exchange.

Joonas Ilmavirta

What's stack exchange for then?

Cerberus

@JoonasIlmavirta Those things are what makes teaching more difficult, yes. Yesterday, we spent ten minutes trying to find the right maps in the Atlas. I was making her find the maps while I was blind. Eventually, she held up the index to the camera, but the conexion was so poor that I couldn't read it. And her arm was hurting from the big book.

Joonas Ilmavirta

Hmm... Now that I think of it, I quite like this chat being in text-only form.

Cerberus

Oh, no, let's make video compulsory here!

Adam

2:45 PM

haha

do they allow video in hell?

Cerberus

Sure.

Joonas Ilmavirta

@Cerberus And all video and audio will also be recorded and saved for eternity?

Cerberus

Rowan Atkinson Toby the Devil - Welcome to Hell

►

Adam

I've found geography makes a big difference in lag time; conference calls with people in my area are usually good, provided the person isn't in some part of their house where their wifi reception is poor.

Calls with people located overseas are naturally not as good, even if we both have great bandwidth.

Cerberus

My pupils are usually only a few km away!

Joonas Ilmavirta

2:47 PM

I'd be happy to meet some folks from this site if we end up having some free time in the same city, but I fail to find enthusiasm for videochat.

Cerberus

Maybe it's just that old laptop. I don't have a webcam on my main computer, a desktop.

Joonas Ilmavirta

@Adam You also have to know the route. With some services my call to next door probably goes through the US.

Jasper May

@Cerberus Noice. How did that start? Has it become a full-time job?

Cerberus

@JoonasIlmavirta Then perhaps you could draw an expression of your facial expression every second or so and post it her.

Joonas Ilmavirta

@Cerberus Computer speed plays a big role.

@Cerberus Me drawing with mouse in MS Paint? I'm sure there are more attractive forms of torture for you.

Cerberus

2:49 PM

@JasperMay Nah, I don't have that many private pupils. I also teach part time at a school, which has now also turned into a kind of tutoring with the schools closed.

@JoonasIlmavirta Maybe you could draw in virtual reality?

Joonas Ilmavirta

@Cerberus I don't think I have the ware, hard or soft, for that.

Cerberus

I read about a chemistry teacher who uses a special blackboard programme in virtual reality: the fact that his pupils can see his hands moving, writing and pointing at things, has really improved their participation and appreciation, or so he says.

Jasper May

@Cerberus OK

Joonas Ilmavirta

@Cerberus I can imagine!

But those gadgets aren't free from what I've seen.

Cerberus

@JasperMay You can always put up advertisements in schools, once they open again.

I think I once did that, fifteen years ago or so.

@JoonasIlmavirta Immo, they cost about €400, I'd say. If you want a good one.

Maybe even more.

Jasper May

2:55 PM

@Cerberus I'll think about it, thanks.

Joonas Ilmavirta

@Cerberus I'll have to see if I can figure out something viable without new machinery. I don't have to teach remotely, so my use would mostly be for research meetings.

Adam

Maybe get a green screen behind so you can record yourself in different exotic locations.

Or even just a green colored sheet.

Joonas Ilmavirta

@Adam I've thought of that. That should be workable in my current office if I want to set up a background like that.

But I think I'd like something that's at least somewhat nice and useful outside that single purpose too.

Cerberus

@JoonasIlmavirta You could buy a cheap tablet and draw in a blackboard programme, and simply share the screen of that programme to your interlocutors.

Drawing with one's fingers is much better than with a mouse.

It would be nice if the programme also had a pointer function you could use that doesn't draw, in addition to a pencil.

Adam

Something like this could work with the free tier.

Joonas Ilmavirta

3:03 PM

@Cerberus I'm actually just playing with my phone and a touchpen. I'll see if it works with Zoom.

@Adam Do viewers have to download and install something to see my drawings? That seems to be a major threshold.

Adam

@JoonasIlmavirta I didn't read far enough to see if it requires downloading an application or if it's entirely browser-based

Joonas Ilmavirta

I just tried going to my Zoom room with my phone and sharing its screen. It seemed to quite reasonable until the drawing app suddenly started showing video ads when clearing the drawing.

Cerberus

3:34 PM

Showing video apps?

You mean, in an advertisement?

You could use Jitsi, by the way. As opposed to Zoom, nobody needs to download anything, and it is all open source (I think).

But sometimes, depending on the computers of both parties, Zoom seems more stable.

Then again, Zoom is bad for privacy.

Joonas Ilmavirta

@Cerberus Yeah, I meant ads instead of apps.

@Cerberus Zoom has the benefit of having become a standard to a great extent in academia.

You don't need to download anything or sign up to access a Zoom meeting. Only the host needs to be more into it.

I hadn't heard of Jitsi. Looks promising at a glance.

@Cerberus I've heard that a couple of times but never with elaboration. How is it bad, exactly?

(Not that I need to defend it. I'm just curious.)

@Cerberus I changed the drawing app to something without ads. Now it should be better.

At least I have a decent option for drawing on paper and holding it in front of the camera. Although I must admit that old-school approach is pretty stable and simple.

Cerberus

@JoonasIlmavirta I don't know, I believe many universities here have forbidden its use, because it is bad for privacy.

@JoonasIlmavirta I think there has been a string of scandals affecting privacy.

I don't remember exactly.

@JoonasIlmavirta Stable, but you can't draw and show at the same time very well.

Joonas Ilmavirta

3:50 PM

@Cerberus True. And it shakes too.

@Cerberus I'm reading up on Wikipedia.

It seems they've made progress on security and privacy over the past months.

But once a platform is found where senior colleagues can join and participate without friction, it's hard to change. Social inertia can be formidable.

Adam

@Cerberus My company actually banned the use of it, so we only use Google meet/hangouts.

Cerberus

4:24 PM

@JoonasIlmavirta Quite.

@Adam Makes sense.

I also hear many companies like Microsoft Teams.

Meanwhile:

cuiorum

Pronoun: cūiōrum

genitive masculine plural of cūius
genitive neuter plural of cūius...

Joonas Ilmavirta

4:57 PM

@Cerberus The two Finnish universities I'm interacting with use Teams for internal matters. Zoom is more for teaching and research.

@Cerberus I've seen cuia before, so that's not a big surprise.

But it does still feel odd.

And smells very post-classical.

Cerberus

@JoonasIlmavirta Seen: but as an error?

@JoonasIlmavirta Yeah, an error or far post-classical.

Joonas Ilmavirta

@Cerberus I can't remember any content, but I do think it was purposeful.

Hmm... That word reminds me of the Italian word "cuoio" for leather.

Cerberus

Cuir in French.

Joonas Ilmavirta

It's no surprise that the genitives in -ius would be reanalyzed as adjectives. They do look like that.

Cerberus

Yeah.

I remember having that thought in first or second grade.

Joonas Ilmavirta

5:12 PM

@Cerberus Is there a Latin word behind that? It doesn't ring a bell.

Cerberus

Uhh.

I'm thinking.

> corium, ī n (Gr. leenw.)

Probably this one.

Joonas Ilmavirta

Wiktionary points to that.

Seems likely, but I don't think I've seen it before.

Cerberus

5:48 PM

latijnnederlands.nl/cgi/b/bib/…

It's the only one I can find quickly.

Adam

11:48 PM

@Cerberus brianpck's website cites the OLD as the source for cuiorum, which would imply a classical usage. I don't know how to search the OLD itself and see a reference, though.

Cerberus

@Adam Oh, is that his website?

It turns out cuius as an adjective of the first/second declension is rare and archaic rather than wrong.

archimedes.fas.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/…

Adam

@Cerberus He linked to it in the past in comment or answer to something of mine, then I forgot it was his. I was reminded again when I emailed the webmaster to mention that an SSL certificate would help with search engine ranking and also avoid browsers throwing security warnings.

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