CONLOQVIVM

ktm5124

00:00

I remember in the past we were a little nervous about site closure, being a beta. What of that?

Joonas Ilmavirta

@ktm5124 A reading project sounds like a good refresher. And asking questions here works better than reading a textbook when you return after a break, I'd say.

@ktm5124 There hasn't been any discussion of that lately, and the higher-ups seem to pay our little site essentially no attention.

@ktm5124 No sign of graduation nor termination. We seem to be stable.

I think it'd be fair to allow us to graduate and I imagine we will within a couple of years, but it mostly depends on network-wide developments.

The most immediate thing I'm waiting for is a moderator election to get a third one.

I don't know who might be interested in a moderatorial position, but I'm sure there would be some. It's not a lot of work.

ktm5124

@JoonasIlmavirta Is Plato / Classical Greek kosher on our site?

Joonas Ilmavirta

@ktm5124 Yes!

ktm5124

@JoonasIlmavirta Yay! That makes me happy!

Joonas Ilmavirta

Just tag it greek and you're good to go.

ktm5124

00:10

We are an attractive site for classics enthusiasts then.

We always were, but this makes us even more attractive.

This ropes in another crowd.

@JoonasIlmavirta Just out of curiosity, do you practice Latin every day? Even if it's just a little? Is that how you maintain your vocabulary and knowledge?

Joonas Ilmavirta

Indeed. I think we have a decent flux of new questions, users, and views.

@ktm5124 My Latin practice comes almost exclusively from this site. Reading and writing questions and answers keeps it active.

Adam

@JoonasIlmavirta Maybe one of Cerberus's other heads? or do they all moderate together as one voice?

Joonas Ilmavirta

So yes, practically every day.

Adam

There are more active SE boards, but I'm surprised that this one is still beta at this point. It seems to get regular, healthy posts on a consistent basis over a long period of time.

Joonas Ilmavirta

@Adam There's the technical thing that the beast has a single account, and we'd need a new account rather than a new head to join our ranks.

ktm5124

00:13

@JoonasIlmavirta Thanks for sharing!

Adam

My perspective is skewed as a more recent contributor/commenter on SE, though.

ktm5124

@JoonasIlmavirta Doing something little and often is a great way to practice.

Adam

We might need @Cerberus_Head1, @Cerberus_Head2, and @Cerberus_Head3

Joonas Ilmavirta

@Adam Agreed. Actually, would you mind writing a meta question about that? I can arrange to get some CM eyes to see it, I think.

Adam

@ktm5124 There is a discord server that someone made specifically for LLPSI that I joined for a similar reason, but to be honest I find it easier to read posts here than jump into another chat room.

Although one of the moderator's usernames is Nasus Syrae, so there's that.

Joonas Ilmavirta

00:16

@Adam The same person can have multiple accounts, but they cannot interact. I'm pretty sure that includes not being moderators at the same time.

@ktm5124 It is indeed! And I also feel I'm using the skill for something useful.

@ktm5124 Have you tried the Duolingo Latin course?

Cerberus

@Adam Woof woof woof.

Adam

@JoonasIlmavirta I'm writing a post now.

ktm5124

@JoonasIlmavirta I have tried the Duolingo Latin course! I love it!

@Adam What is LLPSI?

Cerberus

Lingua Latina Per Se Illustrata?

Joonas Ilmavirta

@ktm5124 Duolingo is great for daily small doses of practice. I went through the Latin course, but I haven't touched it for Latin since. I get my Latin fix here.

@Adam Great!

Adam

00:28

@JoonasIlmavirta All done!

@Cerberus @ktm5124 That is indeed what it is. I think I found it via a LLPSI Facebook group I randomly joined.

Cerberus

Yay!

Adam

@ktm5124 Have they improved the duo lingo course? I read a post by @JoonasIlmavirta some months back that it needed some work. If they've improved it I'm definitely going to try it, though. I just didn't want to learn bad habits so early on in my own journey.

Joonas Ilmavirta

@Adam +1! I hope this will make things roll forward or at least tell is where we stand in relation to graduation.

ktm5124

@Adam I for one love it!

Adam

@JoonasIlmavirta What benefits are there to graduating outside of removing the possibility of the board being closed?

@ktm5124 That's great! I'll check it out and make it part of my daily routine.

Joonas Ilmavirta

00:42

@Adam The network has been redefining beta and graduation over the past years. One of the key aspects to me is the message: You're no longer on a trial basis but a proper site.

Cerberus

@Adam SE have told everyone that small sites will not be closed, as long as there are no problems there and they have (active) moderators.

Joonas Ilmavirta

In addition to the morale effect, some features are only available on graduated sites. This includes community ads and migration channels for non-moderator use. Graduation would also come with a moderator election.

Adam

@JoonasIlmavirta Ahh, so it's about how the site is positioned and presented to its users and new visitors. I read in this post on graduation that it seems like they are thinking of having more than just a binary system of beta/not-beta.

Cerberus

SE is severely behind on almost anything.

So I doubt whether they'll do anything.

ktm5124

@Cerberus So we have you and Joonas to thank!

By the way, I just saw that Nathaniel is protesting.

Cerberus

00:44

Mainly Joonas!

He does all the stuff.

ktm5124

Is he protesting the incident that happened with an SE moderator?

What happened exactly?

Cerberus

Yes.

ktm5124

I heard that SE did not treat a moderator well. What happened?

Aww shucks, now I have 10,100 reputation.

Cerberus

30

Q: Resigning as moderator

With sadness I wish to make you aware that I am stepping down as moderator from this site. There are a number of reasons for this, but the primary immediate causes are Stack Exchange's disgraceful treatment of Monica Cellio and new mandates that will soon be added to SE's Code of Conduct. I a...

discussion

10

Q: Acta Diurna: Latin site, code of conduct, and Stack Exchange

Cari Amici, There has been an unprecedented amount of turmoil in the Stack Exchange network recently, and we wanted to share some of the developments with you. We will keep this brief; you can follow the links or ask for details if you want to learn more. Stack Exchange was concerned about user...

discussion stackexchange moderation

Joonas Ilmavirta

@Adam Indeed, I remember reading that post. But whatever it is that might be there beyond beta, we should seriously discuss getting there. My hope is that something will happen, but I don't know what.

Adam

00:47

@JoonasIlmavirta I agree! I'm involved on a moderator or higher level on other Communities, so from my perspective it's a great community.

Joonas Ilmavirta

@Cerberus I don't think they'll do anything specifically for our site, apart from maybe organizing an election. But it'd be nice of them to share some thoughts of the future with our site.

We'll probably graduate in a network-wide overhaul of some kind.

Cerberus

Sure.

No harm.

Joonas Ilmavirta

@ktm5124 The two meta posts Cerberus linked are a good summary. There's a lot more if you want to read, but it's quite a can of worms if you want details.

ktm5124

@JoonasIlmavirta Wow, that's a lot.

Nathaniel made a good point about how compelling someone's speech can be wrong.

Cerberus

Yeah.

ktm5124

00:58

For me it raises the question of what it means to be a moderator.

Does it mean serving the heads of Stack Exchange? Absolutely not!

It is their product and I have never really thought much of that.

Joonas Ilmavirta

@ktm5124 Indeed. At least on our site we trust people's judgement.

ktm5124

There is definitely a relationship between moderator and the heads of Stack Exchange but this never came to mind before.

I kind of forgot this is someone's product... for me it is just the Internet.

Joonas Ilmavirta

@ktm5124 It means different things to different users and mods.

Cerberus

Perhaps the number of heads of SE is wrong. Just a thought.

SE uses me and I use SE. That's how I feel about it.

Joonas Ilmavirta

I see mods as chosen representatives of the users who have a hotline to the company but are not part of it.

@Cerberus Sounds useful.

ktm5124

01:01

@JoonasIlmavirta That makes sense to me, since I assume you are not salaried by Stack Exchange.

Cerberus

I would not conspire to destroy SE. But otherwise I feel little loyalty towards the company.

ktm5124

I value my employer very highly as they salary me, and for that they have earned my love and respect.

Cerberus

Love, even.

ktm5124

But Stack Exchange does not salary its moderators.

Cerberus

If only.

I got a t-shirt.

ktm5124

01:02

Nice!

Cerberus

But that was very long ago, long before I became a moderator.

Joonas Ilmavirta

@ktm5124 Correct! Moderators receive no compensation. I think moderators should do what they think is right. If SE disagrees severely, then the position can be discontinued.

Cerberus

Oh, and a pen.

ktm5124

Yeah I mean at my company if the CIO wants things done a certain way obviously I do it that way.

Adam

Should have been three tshirts, really

Joonas Ilmavirta

01:02

I'm not here for the company. I'm here for the people who like Latin.

ktm5124

My manager once told me "the boss is always right" and that's useful for a software engineer.

Cerberus

Well, I don't normally wear shirts on my heads except on Tuesdays.

ktm5124

But moderator-SE relationship is very different from a software engineer's relationship with his manager or boss.

Cerberus

Quite.

Joonas Ilmavirta

@ktm5124 Indeed.

ktm5124

01:03

And by "firing" a moderator they are circumventing the wishes of the community.

A community that elected the moderator.

Cerberus

Indeed.

And over nothing.

Joonas Ilmavirta

And remember that our site is not very typical. We can bend the rules in our little bubble as long as no problems arise.

Cerberus

And while insinuating that she was a foul bigot, which she totally is not.

ktm5124

We are so small that SE does not see us over the heads of taller sites...

Cerberus

True.

But the bigger sites aren't really following SE's policies in this regard either, I believe.

I don't think any moderators on Stack Overflow, the heart of SE, are occupying themselves with compelling speech.

Joonas Ilmavirta

01:05

@ktm5124 And our site is not causing trouble. We don't generate a stream of complaints about abusive language, for example.

Cerberus

And there is little SE could do about it.

SO is their life's blood.

Joonas Ilmavirta

@Cerberus And if some are, they were doing that before last year's event.

Cerberus

Yes. But I don't believe any were.

All that I have spoken to disagreed with the policy.

Joonas Ilmavirta

@ktm5124 So no need to worry about selling your soul to a corporation if you become a mod.

ktm5124

@JoonasIlmavirta I think anyone who approaches the classics learns humility because the Greek and Latin languages have a way of humbling people.

Joonas Ilmavirta

01:07

@Cerberus I can believe that. I've never used SO myself.

@ktm5124 And perhaps these topics attract certain personalities more than others.

Cerberus

They do.

I mean, look at this chat. Everyone punctuates and capitalises!

Adam

It read like a policy to deal with a problem that could have been dealt with by individual boards themselves through normal moderation.

lol dAwG cErBerRus u gOt tHat sHit rite bro

Cerberus

@Adam Yeah.

@Adam dies

Oh, wait, I can't do that.

Adam

Cerberus feigns death

Joonas Ilmavirta

@Cerberus I couldn't stand it otherwise!

Cerberus

01:11

lies on back with paws in the air

@JoonasIlmavirta Heh.

You must have a difficult time around the Internet.

I was called out for punctuating recently, in a Discord chat room.

Joonas Ilmavirta

@Cerberus I only frequent the civilized corners of it.

Cerberus

About a programming language.

Wise.

Adam

@Cerberus For using correct punctuation?

ktm5124

@JoonasIlmavirta @Cerberus After reading that whole thread I still am clueless why they fired Monica from being a moderator.

All I understand is that one day suddenly she lost moderator status.

Adam

I confess that in text messages or in the heat of furious Slack conversations I will forgo punctuation and more

Cerberus

01:14

@Adam Yes.

@ktm5124 There was going to be a new policy where you must use whatever pronoun someone else desired. She said she never used 'singular they'; she always wrote in such a way as to avoid it, without ever misgendering anyone. So she was asking questions about whether she would still be allowed to do that, and stated that she was taught not to use 'singular they' and found in ungrammatical.

That was the reason.

Joonas Ilmavirta

@ktm5124 I felt someone made an executive decision that she was against being tolerant and refused to back up so as not to lose their face.

Cerberus

@Adam ...

Adam

@Cerberus I’m definitely damned, right?

ktm5124

@Cerberus That is absurd.

@Cerberus No reason to strip someone of moderator status.

3

Joonas Ilmavirta

@ktm5124 There are valid reasons for removing the status, but that's most certainly not one.

ktm5124

01:21

@JoonasIlmavirta Huh.. sounds like there was a pretty steep power imbalance.

Cerberus

ktm5124

@JoonasIlmavirta What are the valid reasons?

Cerberus

So it wasn't me he called out, actually.

@ktm5124 Yes, and yes.

Joonas Ilmavirta

@ktm5124 I don't think there's a formal list anywhere, but things like abuse of power, request to step down, request of removal from fellow mods, blatantly inappropriate behavior towards CMs or other mods, misuse of sensitive information that mods have access to.

ktm5124

@Cerberus I often forego punctuation in text messages, Facebook messages, Snapchat messages, WhatsApp messages...

@JoonasIlmavirta Oh I misunderstood you. I thought you meant "in this particular instance there were valid reasons".

Cerberus

01:25

@ktm5124 Oh, dear!

ktm5124

@Cerberus Hahaha

Cerberus

...

ktm5124

Ok take that example, "Hahaha". Neither a full stop or an exclamation mark sound fitting.

Cerberus

Either would do.

ktm5124

Maybe.

See what I did there? :-)

I left out the period then edited it in later.

Joonas Ilmavirta

01:27

@ktm5124 Oh, I see. I never heard of anything valid in this instance.

ktm5124

@JoonasIlmavirta The chutzpah of the powerful... never ceases to amaze me.

I think somewhere it becomes calcified that a powerful person cannot apologize, admit they made a mistake, and reverse their decision...

Because they need to "save face".

She should simply be reinstated as a moderator and they should offer a public apology and then Nathaniel could stop protesting :)

2

Joonas Ilmavirta

@ktm5124 There's quite a power imbalance. Moderators have absolute power over regular users, and the company over moderators. Things work out when the power is used sparingly.

Much like with royalty, I suppose.

ktm5124

@VVejalla Welcome!

Cerberus

@ktm5124 How evil of you.

@ktm5124 Exactly.

Joonas Ilmavirta

@ktm5124 People have been asking for that, and then disappointed with the would-be apologies.

Cerberus

01:34

@ktm5124 This is exactly the problem with many people in power. It's so saddening, because it is absolutely unnecessary.

Joonas Ilmavirta

But I think the matter is now settled legally but the parties can't disclose the outcome.

@Cerberus So true. What makes me value a leader is seeing them step up and apologize for a bad decision. We all make them, but it takes strength not to hide behind them.

ktm5124

@JoonasIlmavirta Indeed, no one is perfect, mistakes are inevitable... but owning mistakes is in our control.

Cerberus

@JoonasIlmavirta Exactly.

Present company excepted, of course (about making mistakes).

Joonas Ilmavirta

I sometimes feel I make mistakes for a living. Research in math can be painfully slow.

Cerberus

I can imagine.

Adam

01:56

To quote Bob Ross, "there are no mistakes, there are only happy little accidents". I don't think you can apply that universally, though.

Cerberus

Heh.

ktm5124

@JoonasIlmavirta I'm like on track for one question per sentence in Plato... yikes.

Adam

02:14

@ktm5124 But you can at least read it. It's all greek to me.

Surely a joke that bad guarantees me entry into the underworld. Or maybe a lifetime ban.

ktm5124

@Adam Ah I enjoy what little knowledge I have of Greek, but the more you learn, the less you know...

I know that I know nothing about Greek, and I'm sure Socrates is smiling somewhere.

Cerberus

@Adam We have a very special place reserved for you.

Adam

@ktm5124 One wonders what Socrates or Plato would think to know the place their lives and work have in the western world today.

@Cerberus :)

ktm5124

02:29

@Adam It's amazing to think about that.

Adam

@ktm5124 Or anyone else from antiquity, really.

Cerberus

I often fantasise about explaining our modern world to Cicero.

I have entire conversations in my heads.

ktm5124

@Cerberus Hahaha, really!?

Cerberus

Also with a praehistoric man. But those are more about showing than telling, since we share no language.

I would show him Youtube videos about various topics.

Beginning with how to use a loo, and what a gas explosion looks like (so he won't turn on the stove).

Adam

@ktm5124 I actually do the same thing.

Cerberus

02:40

Really!

I found that it is a lot easier to explain things to Cicero.

You see, he has appeared here in our world, and he wants to make a life for himself.

Adam

I think other than technology, Romans would find our world pretty familiar to them.

Latin Language Meta

2

Q: Graduate Latin Language SE from beta status

I've been a member of the Latin Language SE for while now, and have been wondering if it's time for the board to graduate from its status as a beta. In my time here, I've observed that it gets regular and varied posts with both quality questions and answers, and has moderators and users interacti...

discussion

Cerberus

03:02

@Adam Well, I was thinking about explaining to him that women are truly as smart as men.

ktm5124

@Cerberus Ah yes, they were terribly oppressive of women, weren't they?

That, and slavery, are two of the shames of their culture...

There are more, of course...

This dog is turning in for sleep soon...

@Cerberus Woof, woof.

Cerberus

@ktm5124 Well, few cultures of the past did not have slaves or did not consider women inferior.

This dog as well.

Vale!

Joonas Ilmavirta

10:01

@ktm5124 That sounds only good to me.

tony

10:30

@Joonas: Grades? A first-class honours was seen to be a passport to a good job. Trouble is, employers expect firsts to work miracles. Is it accurate to construe that yourself doesn't like teaching? At least, in the framework within which you find yourself? Teaching bright, committed kids is easy--give them some (sadly now defunct) JMB Special Papers/ Ox. & Cambs. Entrance Qs. and leave them to it. The downside, the answers have to be worked-out, beforehand,

@Joonas: in case they ask something (the rotters). Useful were the Examiners' Reports. These always included details on what everyone had "forgotten"; everyone had got wrong; everyone had just ignored. You don't like the scoundrels & wastrels who don't care.

@Joonas: Teachers, here, use sarcasm to humiliate these. Have you tried that? Your answers (LSE) often go above & beyond. I recall "Chariot Racing"; "Advice from History", brilliant work, which might have cost £100 from a private tutor (please don't send a bill) so you love to teach, on your terms? Private tuition? One (bright) kid at-a-time; high fees (some here now charge £100-an-hour--outrageous, to me, but it's happening)--worthy of consideration?

Joonas Ilmavirta

11:47

@tony We don't have an honor system in Finland. Everyone gets exactly the same diploma. (Perhaps the grade of the final thesis is mentioned, but nothing else.) If someone reads further into the transcript of records, they will find grades.

@tony No, that's inaccurate! I do like teaching. I just try to put a lot of thought into understanding the mechanisms that makes students learn. Keeping them working and motivated is not automatic.

@tony No, and I won't. I think humiliating students is a horrible idea, no matter what. Attacking a student erodes their trust and motivation, which is quite the opposite of what you are supposed to endeavor.

Joonas Ilmavirta