CONLOQVIVM

Joonas Ilmavirta

15:15

The Latin students at my university are compiling their own little magazine once again. I'll write an article about this site.

And when I get back home, I hope to finally write the final version of the Melissa article we discussed at meta.

For some reason I still prioritize work and some personal things above Latin.SE, so things take more time than anticipated...

2

Are there any other (informal) student publications that could reach people studying Latin? I'm sure Jyväskylä is not the only university to have such a thing.

Nathaniel

@JoonasIlmavirta Sounds great!

@JoonasIlmavirta I think you are right; similar things must exist in universities with thriving classics programs. I found one possibility with a bit of googling; I bet there are more. Though most may prefer authors to have some connection with the school.

Joonas Ilmavirta

15:32

@Nathaniel Indeed, most are likely to prefer authors affiliated with the school. Should we ask at meta if people know suitable magazines, both "open ones" and ones they have the needed affiliation for?

Nathaniel

@JoonasIlmavirta Sounds like a good idea! If anyone wants to do this but is hesitant to expose their association online, they could still be given access to the example article so that they can modify and send it on their own.

Joonas Ilmavirta

@Nathaniel True. I'm also hesitant to encourage anyone to send the same article to other places as their own, but it could be given as a starting point.

I'll wait until the current article is ready before making that meta question.

Nathaniel

@JoonasIlmavirta True. Clear attribution would be needed in a separate introduction or something if it were simply copied.

ktm5124

18:43

@Cerberus Good afternoon!

I read an abridged version of an Aesop fable in Greek.

It's only four or five sentences, but I'm still happy with it.

Joonas Ilmavirta

@ktm5124 Cool! It's always rewarding to be able to read a whole story, abridged or not, in a new language.

ktm5124

@JoonasIlmavirta Definitely!

@JoonasIlmavirta Can I ask you a Latin question?

How should I translate the phrase "sine modo"? I know that "sine" means without, and it takes an ablative noun. But I'm not sure how to translate "modo" in this phrase.

Joonas Ilmavirta

@ktm5124 Shoot.

@ktm5124 Can you give more context?

ktm5124

I'm translating Matthew 3 verses 13-17. It appears in verse 3:15.

sacred-texts.com/bib/vul/mat003.htm

Joonas Ilmavirta

Are you sure sine is a preposition here instead of imperative of sinere?

ktm5124

18:54

Oh, you are probably right.

In that case, modo is probably an adverb, not a noun.

"Suffer it for now" would be a loose translation.

Joonas Ilmavirta

It could also be an ablative of respect in a way.

ktm5124

Perhaps, although it's hard to think of a good translation with "modo" as a noun.

"Suffer in this way" is the best I can come up with, but doesn't make sense in the context.

Joonas Ilmavirta

It could be read like "allow in the way of restriction" or in better English "let go of restrictions".

ktm5124

I see.

Joonas Ilmavirta

It's really very ambiguous, but context should help finding a reasonable choice.

ktm5124

19:01

Thanks for your help, Joonas.

Joonas Ilmavirta

No problem.

As always, I recommend asking that at the site. :)

ktm5124

Yeah :) I guess I am a little lazy about doing that.

Joonas Ilmavirta

I understand, but the chat is a secondary channel and that is a great question.

ktm5124

Do you think so? I would assume it's a little too easy for the site.

Joonas Ilmavirta

I don't think so. The words are kind of basic, but there's a horrible amount of ambiguity.

ktm5124

19:03

I agree. What makes the question interesting is choosing the best translation.

Joonas Ilmavirta

It really takes some expertise to give a well justified definitive answer.

Indeed.

Cerberus

@ktm5124 Well done! Is the text online?

@ktm5124 It can be an idiomatic expression "let only", "just let [x happen]", "if only x happened", often followed by a subjunctive.

But the Bible is neither conventional nor literary, so it's hard to predict.

I think its general meaning in that context must be "allow [this to happen] now".

ktm5124

I see. The Douay-Rheims bible translates it as "Suffer it to be so now", which makes a lot of sense.

Cerberus

Right.

Now I must run, adeus!

ktm5124

Oh no!

Stay!

Joonas Ilmavirta

19:14

I'm not sure the dog takes orders.

Cerberus

disappears in cloud of smoke

will be back later

Joonas Ilmavirta

biscuit waits for good doggy

ktm5124

@Cerberus Here is the simple, abridged version of Aesop's fable. goo.gl/zoJszb

Joonas Ilmavirta

@ktm5124 The questions is still worth asking. You're not the only one to think about it, and translating with dictionaries and classical Latin education does not lead to a unique conclusion.

ktm5124

One of the first things you'll notice is the verb ακουει which is the root for "acoustics".

I like learning etymology.

@Joonas I think I'm hesitant because there are so many biblical translations already.

@Joonas It would depend on how I phrase the question. If it's merely a matter of translation, then there's no point to asking, since I can just consult the Douay-Rheims or King James bible.

But maybe I can ask, "How do we get from what we know about these words, to the translation in Douay-Rheims." (e.g. How do you get from A to B?)

Joonas Ilmavirta

19:18

@ktm5124 There are translations, but an explanation as to why it should be read that way would be interesting. And of course you can ask if the phrase has classical origin or something.

ktm5124

Yeah, those are good points.

Joonas Ilmavirta

@ktm5124 That'd be good. A mere translation question is probably not the best way to go, but there are many twists you could add.

ktm5124

Yesterday, as I was reading the Douay-Rheims translation, I got the feeling that it isn't always correct.

Nathaniel

@ktm5124 It's also possible that there are differences between the Greek texts used by Jerome and those used by the KJV translators – so it's quite possible that whatever is confusing you is not actually due to a difficulty with the Latin. Just another reason that asking a question like this on the main site is fine.

ktm5124

I see.

I was reading Douay-Rheims, and on Matthew 2:1, it translates the pluperfect subjunctive as perfect tense.

Latin: sacred-texts.com/bib/vul/mat002.htm Douay Rheims: sacred-texts.com/bib/dou/mat.htm

"Cum ergo natus esset Jesus in Bethlehem..."

I was a little surprised by their translation, and wondered if they made a mistake.

Joonas Ilmavirta

19:29

What matters is that the same story is told in two languages, not that the two stories are "grammatically equivalent". I'm not sure there is a reason to translate tenses "literally".

ktm5124

I see.

Joonas Ilmavirta

This is not the only possible way to look at it, but I have relaxed my definition of a translation from what it used to be and it has helped me.

ktm5124

Yeah. I think I'm missing the forest for the trees.

Easy to do when you're translating.

Joonas Ilmavirta

Easy indeed.

A technically accurate translation can be very useful, but that is often not the best final translation.

Perhaps I could say that one should first embrace the details and then let go of them.

ktm5124

Know the rules before you break the rules.

Joonas Ilmavirta

19:37

Exactly. In this context, know exactly what you want to say before saying it in your own words.

ktm5124

@Joonas I came across something that you might like.

On this blog, a classicist at Oxford refers to Latin as the "maths of the humanities".

blogs.spectator.co.uk/2011/02/…

Joonas Ilmavirta

@ktm5124 I've heard that comparison before, and it is a good one.

@ktm5124 I'll read that later tonight when I've had enough of reading differential geometry.

Cerberus

19:54

@JoonasIlmavirta Whenever you don't translate something literally, there should be a reason for it.

@ktm5124 Cool. There are many bits of etymology you could digest from that.

Joonas Ilmavirta

@Cerberus Fluency in the target language is often a sufficient reason.

Cerberus

For example, ennuchtheron probably contains four elements that are cognates with elements found in English words...

@JoonasIlmavirta If by that you mean that idiom commands a certain change in the target language, then I agree.

ktm5124

@Cerberus Yes, also κλινῶν which means "bed" :)

Joonas Ilmavirta

@Cerberus I mean more than idioms. I don't really think anymore that literal translations are the best starting point if there is no external reason.

It's a matter of taste, though.

And short things without context have to be translated pretty literally, since otherwise you risk changing the meaning too much.

Cerberus

@ktm5124 Yay!

ktm5124

20:06

ἀγνοεῖ -> she does not know ("agnostic")

Cerberus

@JoonasIlmavirta I still think every change needs to be motivated.

And it is, when you ask the translator he will give a good reason.

@ktm5124 Yay!

ktm5124

I'm using the Greek Polytonic keyboard on Mac OS X, but I'm having trouble writing macrons.

Oh, I think I figured it out.

Here we go: Ἁρμονίᾱ

Cerberus

Well done!

ktm5124

Thanks, Cerberus.

Transcript for