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10:01 PM
Eating bread is also some sort of consumption. But you can't enjoy beauty of bread.
I suppose that's another thing that makes it different, mathematics can be beautiful
 
why do you find it beautiful
 
When you are told to make a negative angle of elevation of a line positive, do you add 180° only because of convention?

It could've also been 360°, right?
 
you're putting the cart before the horse
your argument is using art as a vehicle to understand history, as opposed to the other way round
this foregoes anything intrinsic
 
there is nothing intrinsically valuable about art, except that its a means to pass time for some people. there is nothing inherently sustainable about that sort of thing
art schools wouldnt exist if art was only a means of passing the time
 
@ILikeMathematics 360 gets you back to where you started
 
10:06 PM
sustainability is a meme
 
so are you
 
you were the one who started making a point about meaning
if all that we can say is that both art and math are meaning- and valueless, then we are at a point of comparability after all
 
@user4539917 You just want to make the angle positive so that should be fine
 
im not saying art is meaningless, im saying theres no meaning outside the context of human society
if X cannot be used to understand "why are we and what are we to do?", X is pointless
art, in fact, can
whether or not math can or cannot be is debatable. i would opine this was the case for some time, but now its going off the rails
 
the meaning of math is just as constructed as the meaning of art
 
10:09 PM
what is the meaning of math for you
articulate it
 
@ILikeMathematics where you measuring from should stay the same
try it, and find out
 
dumb question incoming: to solve this integral would u use quotient/product rule $\int_{e^y}^y \frac{ylnx}{x}dx , y>0$
what's the latex for natural log or just normal text again
 
I wasn't taking about my subjective point of view, but the context of human society
 
what is the meaning of math in the context of human society
stop being a postmodern neomarxist and very precisely say what you mean
 
you'll have to ask human society about that
 
10:12 PM
boo
 
I think it matters little what it is
 
the jee uses it to eliminate candidates
 
the point is simply that that it exists
in an empirical sense
 
i think it matters if government funds math
 
@BalarkaSen same reason as this
 
10:13 PM
so math schools should not exist
i agree with you on this
defund fundamental research academia
 
no, I'm not saying they shouldn't
 
why not
 
math is fundamentally human, and considering it abstract and detached is false.
 
I'm also not saying art schools shouldn't
I'm just saying they're functionally the same
 
When you visit a museum, do you think about history? Can you even determine when the masterpiece was created?
 
10:15 PM
Mathematical beauty is the aesthetic pleasure derived from the abstractness, purity, simplicity, depth or orderliness of mathematics. Mathematicians may express this pleasure by describing mathematics (or, at least, some aspect of mathematics) as beautiful or describe mathematics as an art form, e.g., a position taken by G. H. Hardy) or, at a minimum, as a creative activity. Comparisons are made with music and poetry. == In method == Mathematicians describe an especially pleasing method of proof as elegant. Depending on context, this may mean: A proof that uses a minimum of additional ...
 
@Thorgott Are you saying "mathematics research should be funded by the taxpayer's money"? You're not saying its converse, I understand. But what about the statement itself
@MagnusAlexander Yes, if you don't know the history behind the piece you basically do not understand the piece. You're just gawking at it
 
> Mathematical beauty is the aesthetic pleasure derived from the abstractness, purity, simplicity, depth or orderliness of mathematics.
 
@Obliv What is "fundamentally human"?
 
Do you know the history behind Fur Elise by Bethoven?
 
a part of our culture and identity
 
10:17 PM
Or Winter by Vivaldy
 
No, and I don't listen to Beethoven on a regular basis.
 
Why not?
 
whether that's a result of us adapting to a world where math can exist, or us creating that world for ourselves Idk
 
It doesnt make my point less valid. Take any composer you like and answer the question
 
@BalarkaSen idk, I'm not settling on whether it should or shouldn't be funded
 
10:19 PM
Do you need to know the history behind the symphony to enjoy it?
 
that's not a conversation I'm interested in
 
I'm guessing what balarka is saying is just how removed and specific higher level maths is to ordinary human endeavors?
 
@Thorgott wee postmodernist gets scared again
 
But the higher you go in any pursuit the less "normal" you seem compared to the rest of the population.
 
@Obliv to be clear, by math i mean current, research mathematics
 
10:21 PM
@BalarkaSen I'm not sure if that's an apt caricature of myself
 
@MagnusAlexander I like Erik Satie. I found his pieces only intriguing at first, I could appreciate and understand it a hundredfold better only after reading into the history behind his works
 
If you have $\alpha = -40$°, then $\alpha + 360$° is $320$°, you are back where you started and made the angle positive, which is what you wanted
You would use + $180$° instead of $360$° though, why?
Is it just the convention?
 
yes
get used to it
 
@thorgott what you need, is to clean up your room asap
 
Winter by Vivaldi won't get any better or worse for me if I will research on the history behind it
 
10:22 PM
@user4539917 Alright, thanks
 
@BalarkaSen I am out of my depth, but if I had to imagine I'd say "discovering" math is akin to a physicist developing a theory except the physicist has to test it, whereas the mathematician just understands it to be true?
depending on the type of research math I guess.
 
@MagnusAlexander if you say so. seems very superficial
 
I just find anything that gives me aesthetic pleasure to be an art. It doesn't have to make sense, to have history, the only thing that matters is how this influences me, how it moves me, etc.
 
what gives you "aesthetic pleasure"?
 
10:25 PM
Art:)
 
it seems to verge on liking something without understanding why you like it
which is a very primitive thing to do
 
understanding is just pretense anyway
 
yeah we're still primitive beings lol
 
Most of the times I understand why I like it, but that is not the case
 
maybe not so much primitive as instinctive
 
10:26 PM
@Thorgott this is jacques derrida copypasta
 
well, I'm not french at least
 
You don't need to understand it, after all
 
all the great germans wanted to understand
Hilbert: "We must know, we will know"
Freud, Marx, ...
 
you just get used to it
 
youre a scam german man
 
10:28 PM
so is there no way to DM someone on this website? only private rooms?
 
I'm not saying it's meaningless endeavour, I'm just wary of this absolutist appeal to understanding
 
@Obliv yeah. And that's probably for the better
 
understanding history is neither the high nor the only read to engaging with art
 
anyway, @BalarkaSen I don't know why there was a discussion on beethoven and contemporary piano but youtube.com/watch?v=YTPvBVJwBXQ this is a good piece not relevant to any debate. brb
 
so I find this angle very narrow-minded
 
10:29 PM
thanks, @Obliv, i will check it out
@Thorgott yet you fail to articulate the broad-minded angle. curious.
maybe if you do your mind will fall out of the sector
 
what should I articulate?
 
The argument from beauty (also the aesthetic argument) is an argument for the existence of a realm of immaterial ideas or, most commonly, for the existence of God, that roughly states that the elegance of the laws of physics or the elegant laws of mathematics is evidence of a creator deity who has arranged these things to be beautiful (aesthetically pleasing, or "good") and not ugly. Plato argued there is a transcendent plane of abstract ideas, or universals, which are more perfect than real-world examples of those ideas. Later philosophers connected this plane to the idea of goodness, beauty...
 
unlike you, my goal isn't to tell people how they should engage with art
 
what other way is there of engaging with art? give some examples
@Thorgott but you, being a postmodern neomarxist, have no goal
 
lol
 
10:31 PM
I mean, what you're outlining strictly speaking isn't even a way of engaging with art, it's just supplemental
 
yes, yes, tell me 1 way of engaging with art
 
art is expression, engaging with art means dialogue with that expression, this dialogue can be informed through historical understanding, but that is neither necessary nor exclusive
 
instead of refuting X as a way of engaging with art
 
I am still not sure I get Balarka's point lmao
You need to know the history about the piece? I think you should go further to reach like full complete 100% understanding
 
my point is "defund math research".
 
10:35 PM
Like finish musical school to really appreciate the music, without it it's useless to listen to music because you won't be able to understand it
 
no, your point was some bs about how art and math isn't comparable
 
they arent
i stick to my grounds
 
I live in Russia, here math is completely defunded already mdr
 
you still havent given me a way of engaging with art, german enlightenment enjoyer
 
I have
 
10:36 PM
can we agree to disagree?
please
 
@MagnusAlexander fantastic
power to russia
 
Come to us
 
already on my way
 
Few shots of vodka and you will truly understand arts
Won't even need to finish music school to listen to Bethoven and stuff
 
they're only sound waves anyway
 
10:39 PM
according to fourier, if you've heard all of the simple tones within human hearing, you've heard it all
 
@MagnusAlexander have you read "Real and functional analysis" by Bogachev and other author?
 
we can be practical if you so desire, the simplest mode of engaging with art is the act of consumption itself
to look at a painting, to listen to a piece of music, to read a book, to watch a movie, etc. is to engage
 
@Jakobian I'm not yet up to this point lmao, but Bogachev works at my faculty
 
@Thorgott what a definition
 
"understanding" is not even a necessity
 
10:41 PM
oh, what does he think about this book?
could you ask them for me?
 
not a definition, an example
 
life is art
 
it sounds really interesting but idk if I want to pick up another one
 
You want me to ask the author of the book about what he thinks about his own book or smth?
 
-1
Q: interesting relationship involving the growth of differences between log integral and prime counting function

geocalc33Wondering about the following where my $f(x)$ is defined further down: $$|f(x)-\pi(x)|-|f(x)-\text{Li}(x)|\approx |\text{Li(x)}-\pi(x)|~~~(*)$$ In the sense that the difference between the LHS and RHS is bounded by some constant $c<N.$ I guess my main questions are: Can $(*)$ be proven? Why do...

 
10:41 PM
@MagnusAlexander yes, I think that's ok
after all, they made it
 
@Thorgott its as useless as "we are as we are"
 
I think people write this stuff in preface, but I'll keep that in mind
 
ah. Good point
 
Bogachev, though, is a very specific figure
 
@BalarkaSen a useful answer to a dumb question like "what does it mean to be"
 
10:43 PM
what is an interesting question then
what is interesting
what is dumb
everything is because it is nothing is dumb, and everything is dumb
 
stop shifting goalposts
 
what is the meaning of meaning?
 
you have no goals, theres nothing to shift, it is what it is
we are having a conversation because we are saying words to each other right now
 
what is truth?
 
bat
 
10:44 PM
is this is like a childish reaction to nihilism
 
cat
ignoramus
polycorns
very nice conversation i dont see the issue
 
define truth
 
my question
 
is truth real?
 
well, congrats if self-destruction was the motif of your rhetoric
 
10:46 PM
I thought we are going to throw bananas at each other at the end of this talk, but this took an interesting turn
 
self? destruct? i am what i am
 
@amWhy There's nothing wrong with beautiful seashells!
 
motif? rhetoric? words are words and i am me
 
you are unique
 
A Balarka, did you show up just to make trouble? :D
 
10:47 PM
After all, it seems very controversial to claim statements about defunding meaningless maths on a maths forum
 
Haha Hi @TedShifrin!
Long time
 
I'll take nihilism over all the narcissism we've been enduring.
 
ted, we've turned into some kind of intellectual salon. pull up a chair, a cup of tea, and bring your best opinions on "but is it Art?"
 
@TedShifrin ;D Indeed.
 
I could consult with my sister and brother-in-law; they're both art historians.
 
10:48 PM
Art historians! Yes!
 
Balarka is throwing chairs around in the salon cause he thinks that's what being subversive is about
 
Do I need a cup of tea, or can I make a fresh cappuccino? ...
Is Balarka trying to stage his own Jan 6 here?
 
lol
in English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room, 1 hour ago, by user4539917
yup, with the GOP so close to getting a majority
don't be an ostrich
 
Ostriches make their standard appearance in the tried-and-true related rates exercises.
 
TIL that the topologist Fomenko has some ...interesting views on history
 
10:54 PM
he's a new earth theorist lol
 
"Fomenko is one of authors of a concept that manipulates historical chronology. It is known as New Chronology. Fomenko claims that he has discovered that many historical events do not correspond mathematically with the dates they are supposed to have occurred on. He asserts from this that all of ancient history (including the history of Greece, Rome, and Egypt) is just a reflection of events that occurred in the Middle Ages and that all of Chinese and Arab history are fabrications of 17th and 18th century Jesuits.
 
i think kasparov applauded Fomenko's works on history
 
Gee, with his revisionism he should have been in the Tromp administration.
 
his new admin is taking applications
 
Trojan War = Crusades. How does one come up with stuff like this?
 
10:56 PM
We laugh at Fomenko in some sense; but he is highly respected as a mathematician and a teacher at the faculty
 
Being a highly respected mathematician doesn't necessarily validate his "opinions."
2
 
+ he is a cool ARTIST. Look at his paintins ahah
 
lukas, there are parallels that aren't so cranky. e.g. a lot of stories of various figures in christianity have analogues in earlier stories about other deities, and some christian holidays more explicitly retcon pagan things. the added element is saying 'these things literally were the same' instead of 'one narrative somehow blended up with the other'
 
@TedShifrin Being highly respected (or even simply competent) in one field implies nothing about expertise in other areas.
 
No no, his history stuff is complete bullshit, i just mean that nevertheless it didnt influence much in his reputation at least at the faculty
 
10:58 PM
There are a lot of smart (and not so smart) people who I wish would get that point.
 
it makes a great deal of sense to me that a mathematician would be more likely to do this kind of thing than other scholars. in math you don't have more authorities than the axioms you assume. the axiomatic basis for assuming almost anythinig about history is nil
the only reason i "know" my own birthday is someone told me that's what it was.
 
My "favorite" example is Neil DeGrasse Tyson, who seems to think that his knowledge of astronomy makes him qualified to talk about biology and film criticism.
 
maybe this means i participated in the crusades
 
@leslietownes How do you know that your aren't participating RIGHT NOW?!
 
@Xander Not to mention Marjorie Tyler Green's expertise on covid.
 
10:59 PM
xander, it all gets back to the theory that i'm dreaming this whole thing, because there's nothing any of you could say now that you couldn't also say in a dream.
 
Oh wait. She's not competent or respected in anything.
 
@TedShifrin Oh, jeez. Indeed.
 
except i wouldn't have dreamt up you lot.
 
@TedShifrin She is a respected troll.
 
@leslietownes but, reality is the persistent dream
 
11:03 PM
Kaczynski was also respected as a mathematician, but that doesn't validate his opinions on the virtues of mailing people bombs
 
I'm not sure how much respect he had as a mathematician.
 
unabomber manifesto is very boring actually
there must be better reasons for mailing shrapnel bombs to people
 
ted, he got a better postdoc than i did, anyway.
although had he done the same thing when i did it, maybe he'd have had my postdoc. maybe he'd be here right now.
 
@TedShifrin I read that his dissertation was quite well-received
 
my impression is that he benefited from being in the right place at the right time in terms of what he was working on and where he came from. he arrived at the historically optimal time for people maybe caring about the kind of math that he did enough to give him good jobs.
 
11:05 PM
Yeah, I just read about it.
He resigned from Berkeley in 69. Gee, 5 years before I could have met him.
And now people like him (but not mathematically as gifted) are shooting people in their madness pretty much every day.
Because ... 2nd amendment, blah, blah, blah.
 
and them damn articles of impeachment
 
Which damn articles are you talking about?
 
the ones that ended up being just blah blah blah
 
There was nothing wrong with the articles. Just with the self-serving undemocratic cowards who are still standing by their man.
 
Fomenko-Fuchs is a cool book indeed
 
11:10 PM
their man is on the rise again
the first thing he's going to do is rock the boat to make sure everybody remembers how to swim
 
@TedShifrin In the 80s, when my father was working for the House in Arizona, he was one of the lawyers in charge of creating the impeachment process to remove Fife Symington from office (the then current governor).
He wrote a really good paper on the topic, outlining how the Democratic strategy needed to be to establish a procedure at the outset, and not ad hoc everything.
 
11:27 PM
And did it work?
 
He ultimately never published it, at the request of the then-leader of the Dems.
Fife was not long for the governership.
I can't remember how he was removed.
Between impeachment, the recall vote, and resigning.
 
This is quite a conundrum!
 
Oh, shoot. It wasn't the Symington impeachment. It was the Mecham impeachment.
Symington resigned later, also amidst scandal.
Gosh, we have such good governors, here.
 
If only you had DeSantis.
 
Mecham was impeached and convicted, in 1988.
Anywho, I think I am going to go make a cocktail and sit on the back porch to watch the rain...
 
11:36 PM
Wow, well, it's 5 PM somewhere.
I wish we had rain.
 
we had some yesterday. just enough to make the streets reflect the lights that a lot of folks have put up.
 
nice
 
Nary a drop here. But northern CA got 2-3 feet of snow in the mountains.
When I went to Idyllwild a week ago, it was the same temperatures there a mile up in the mountains as here.
 
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