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7:00 PM
my kids tweaked my back. my son in particular was a big lad.
 
when my daughter melted down at the duck pond last saturday and refused to walk i had to carry her back to the car. she's heavy enough that i can't just use my arms for that anymore. fireman's carry all the way.
i wonder if it is optimal for preventing spine damage. this is a mass transport problem.
 
i think women are stronger & more resilient. so they should do the carrying.
 
funny you should mention that, my wife can still use her arms to carry the kid
 
Can anyone help explain why these people can use $L^1$ weak convergence to take limits in their integral. In short they have an integral $\int F(x) \rho_h(x) dx $, and they take the limit $h\to 0$ claiming it holds by weak $L^1$ convergence. Where $F$ is some function ( but it doesnt look like its in $L^\infty$...) Can I link the result?
im sure one of you will spot it
ignore the $s$.
 
7:18 PM
Sounds like a perfect question for @Leslie.
 
You'd better include all the relevant hypotheses.
 
so they have weak $L^1$ convergence of the product $\rho_\tau \rho_\tau $
and the $\zeta$ is a smooth compact supported function.
My problem is that there is a singularity ...
 
Nah, no singularity. Think polar coordinates along the diagonal to see local behavior.
 
is \zeta a few times differentiable?
oh, smooth
 
7:21 PM
By this I mean write $y=x+r(\cos\theta,\sin\theta)$ and change variables.
 
how come its not singular
 
(I'm doing $d=2$ here.)
Think about this in $\Bbb R^2$. Is $1/\|x\|$ singular at the origin for an area integral?
Even better behaved with $d\ge 3$.
 
what do you mean singular for an area integral?
 
I mean integrating $dA = dx_1\,dx_2$ in the plane.
 
i think flows is more concerned about the boundedness of the function than the convergence of the integral, but it still looks like it ought to be bounded because zeta is smooth
says the guy who has not picked up a pencil today and isn't planning to
 
7:24 PM
In your problem, $dx$ and $dy$ are volume elements each in $\Bbb R^d$.
I thought he wanted to justify the $\tau$ limit, @leslie, but I'm making a point about how he shouldn't think it's a singular integral.
Is picking up a pencil going to tax your back?
 
i think not only to justify it, but to see if it is justifiable by an assumed 'weak L^1 convergence' and not something more specific.
and yes, it will. it's very heavy
 
for the weak convergence I was concerned that the function $|\nabla \zeta(x)-\nabla\zeta(y)| (x-y)/ |x-y|^2$ could blow up at x=y
so wouldnt be in $L^\infty$
 
weak L^1 convergence of f_t to f meaning something like int g f_t -> int gf for all L^infty g.
 
and so how could we use weak convergence...
@leslietownes yeah
 
Change coordinates, @Flows. I've said this three times already.
This is a totally standard issue.
 
7:27 PM
it does pay to listen to ted. how many of us have learned this the hard way.
 
Rarely in analysis, but this is something I've dealt with dozens of times.
 
@TedShifrin ill do it now then :) see you in a bit folks
 
Practice on something simple, as I suggested.
 
thanks you two!
 
You're welcome!
Well, this was a gratifying hinting/commenting situation. Once the OP got on track, he solved his question (except for a doubt at the easiest part).
 
7:45 PM
wow, it really works
sometimes the site still works
 
8:31 PM
I went to eat
@TedShifrin when I changed variable the singularity went away
I got left with $$ \int_{\mathbb{R}^d} \int_0^\infty \int_{0}^{2\pi} |\nabla \zeta ( x) - \nabla \zeta ( x+ r(\cos \theta, \sin \theta)| \rho_h(x+r(\cos \theta, \sin \theta)) \rho_h(x) dx dr d\theta $$
I think Ive missed the point
the $\zeta$ are bounded so can I apply weak convergence and then do the change of variable in reverse to get :
confusion now since $\rho_h$ are evaluated at different points
also not really sure what logic has gone on here to be able to use weak convergence when originally this thing did not look bounded.
 
9:38 PM
Is there a function which has only removable discontinuities at every point?
*at every point in $\mathbb R$
How do I construct such a function?
 
Do you mean that all its singularities are removable? What does "at every point" mean?
 
I mean the function $f:\mathbb R\to \mathbb R$ is discontinuous on $\mathbb R$ and the discontinuity is removable.
 
80
Q: Is there a function with a removable discontinuity at every point?

Pete L. ClarkIf memory serves, ten years ago to the week (or so), I taught first semester freshman calculus for the first time. As many calculus instructors do, I decided I should ask some extra credit questions to get students to think more deeply about the material. The first one I asked was this: 1) Rec...

 
Does that link prove that jump and removable discontinuities must be countable?
 
the answers don't approach it from that direction although you can shake that out of the arguments.
one of the answers to math.stackexchange.com/questions/263606/… does this.
 
9:45 PM
@Koro: Do you find it reasonable to think that there should be a function you can construct?
@Leslie: I left it to you to finish off with @Flows. Now that he understands (?) that the function is locally bounded along the diagonal in the appropriate coordinates.
 
@TedShifrin I mean it seems a bit like magic
 
Not magic.
 
I’m still going through answers on the link
 
changed coordinate system and now the function is bounded
 
It's best understood with the example(s) I told you to work out with the origin in $\Bbb R^d$ alone.
Once you understand that, you see there is no magic.
 
9:48 PM
I know that jump discontinuities are at most countable
Ahh so such a function should not exist
 
Right.
 
ok so just with the $\int_{R^2} 1/\|x\|$
 
Removable singularities are much tamer than jump :P
@Flows: So, in fact, in $\Bbb R^d$, you should see that $\|x\|^{-k}$ is bounded whenever $k\le d-1$.
 
you dont mean bounded
pointwise
 
No no. Jump discontinuities are at most countable but I suppose we can’t say the same for removable discontinuities because for them creating a bijection onto set of rationals may not be possible. For jump discontinuities, I can always chose a rational btw left hand limit and right hand limit and get a one one mapping to rationals
 
9:53 PM
@Flows: I was being sloppy. I mean locally $L^\infty$ in the Lebesgue measure.
 
yeah
not just locally
 
To avoid confusion: let me also state the definitions I’m using because some people use the word discontinuity of first kind also. By removable discontinuity at a point, I mean limit exists at that point but does not equal value of the function at the point
 
so they are isolated?
 
Yes, that's the standard definition, @Koro.
@copper: That's what one needs to see.
 
Standard definition. Ok
Not isolated. In case of isolated, value exists but not the limit. Right?
And by definition of continuity, function is assumed continuous at isolated points.
 
9:58 PM
@Koro Can you have an accumulation point of the set of removable discontinuities?
No, no, you're misinterpreting copper's question.
My point is: Can't you modify the proof you know for jump discontinuities in an obvious and easy way?
 
sorry @TedShifrin but the change of variable trick is only showing me that they are in $L^1(\mathbb{R}^d)$ ( if k \le d-1 ) wheres the $L^\infty $ coming from
 
OK. I misspoke again, sorry. You're right. $L^1$ is the relevant thing, anyhow.
The point is that $f\,d\mu = g\,dr\,d\theta$ for a bounded $g$.
 
yeah I mean this is what youve done for (appropriate negative powers) $f\,d\mu = g\,dr\,d\theta$
that seems like magic to me
that we have started with trying to use weak convergence, which we couldnt in one coordinate system, but changing to polar coordinates suddenly we can
 
Well, change of variables is an essential notion in lower and higher mathematics. One of the crucial technical lemmas in my Ph.D. thesis was exactly this sort of question, because I needed to know an integral converged along a set where the integrand blew up.
 
I understand copper’s comment now. The key is to prove/disprove whether removable discontinuities are isolated or not. If isolated then easily shown to be countable hence proving the non existence of this function. But I doubt the countability of removable discontinuities.
 
10:08 PM
As I commented above, @Koro, your jump discontinuity proof works if you think about it.
 
I’ll think on it @TedShifrin
 
@TedShifrin ok ill have to think about it I guess ( just to confirm the strategy in this case you think is to change to polar coordinates then use the (already established) weak convergence of $\rho_h$, then reverse the change of variables)
 
I think the isolated point approach will also work, but is harder.
@Flows: I'm not sure you have to bother reversing it. Ask @Leslie about this.
 
well just so it looks the same as I started
dont want to carry polar coordinates throughout the work
 
You don't have to carry them. You make the argument and then you're done.
 
10:12 PM
I only change to polar to take the weak limit.
 
the $\partial$-Poincaré lemma also contains this one magical part where you rewrite an integral in polar coordinates to spot its convergence
 
yeah same thing really :)
 
Well, that's because the Bochner-Martinelli kernel is singular on the diagonal ... or something similar.
 
10:25 PM
of course
 
This is a universal phenomenon in PDE, in general, actually. I don't know why Flows hasn't encountered it before.
 
Does anyone have this book? I talked to the author today and he claims that he solved a problem in which I am interested in but I am not really sure if this is the case. Also I'd only need three lines and not a whole book. (@Thorgott It is about the problem we and others here could not solve a while ago in nt.)
 
I have it
which page
 
10:40 PM
how many lines would it take for you to actually purchase the book?
 
LOL @copper 4.75?
 
"I talked to the author today and he claims that he solved a problem in which I am interested in but I am not really sure if this is the case."
 
Yes, that was a very weird sentence.
 
I always claim to readers that my books solve shit so they buy it tbh
 
Me too.
 
10:43 PM
i buy more books than i can even read.
 
@copper.hat I like that policy
 
it is not like the authors are making out like a bandit
 
@Onir That comes as a surprise. Right now I don't know it, is it okay if I'll open chatroom with you tomorrow?
 
I had uncountably many when I retired and gave almost all away. I still have three shelves full of math books.
 
Sure
 
10:44 PM
Thank you!
 
hey if anyone is looking to get rid of maths books, I will take em of your hands (happy to pay shipping to Australia)
 
you need to visit moe's 2nd hand books in berkeley :-)
 
berkley is a bit far for me to walk
 
not as great a selection as before, but troves of what i imagine were personal collections of academics who had moved/passed on. some great deals.
 
that reminds me, there were quite a few retirements in my department this last week, and ive always made out well when retiring profs just leave piles of books for anyone to take. i need to go hang out int the math building!
 
10:46 PM
Yeah, I contributed some to our departmental library, but gave the rest to colleagues, grad students, and a few miscellaneous friends. MikeMiller got at least one from me.
 
I have a side question on style, I think. I see people writing \mathrm{d}x alot for integrals, does it make sense to do \frac{\mathrm{d}y}{\mathrm{d}x} for a derivative?
 
Yes, but I find it effected and think it's a waste of time. And I don't like the way it looks.
 
@TedShifrin Haha, I can explain. I asked for a very specific problem but the response I got was "You can see all the details for the case of $\Psi(x)$ worked out in my book 'A Primer of Analytic Number Theory', that should provide the hint you need." That doesn't sound very convincing, at least not for me.
 
i was a bout to say what Ted said but in a much less polite form :-)
 
How unusual for Ted to be more polite than copper. :D
@vitamind: It sounds fine to me.
 
10:47 PM
i think you are more polite & patient
 
I've certainly said similar things to people about different mathematics.
 
i am not entirely thick skinned myself, but i think many problems in the world would be avoided if people were brutally honest.
i don't need to know that one ear sticks out more than the other, but some things i would rather know up front :-)
 
@copper.hat that seams like something that might be resovled empirically
 
you mean my ear measurements :-)
 
yeah, I have a ruler here somewherer
 
10:50 PM
i have a copy of Milnor and Stasheff's "Characteristic Classes" on my desk.
i consult it hourly
 
no I meant the brutal honesty resolving conflicts, honesty yeah sure, but I think the attitude of 'brutal' honesty may just stoke just as much tension
 
when we went to mass after our family haircut (:-)) we were known as the taxicabs with the doors open.
 
my dad and his dad have that. i have that only on one side.
 
perhaps gentle brutality?
 
Wow, @leslie is turning into the biggest liar in the room.
 
10:52 PM
who does he have to beat to get the title?
 
well, i have it on my desk. it slipped out of a box of books when i was moving. i found it under a car seat about two weeks ago, and i couldn't remember what box it belonged in, so it's on my desk now.
 
@copper.hat I have a colleague who thinks i have it in for him, when I'm just being straight forward, direct and honestly responding in all our interactions.
 
in fact, just today i identified a sibling in a photo from 55 years ago on the basis of ears alone.
 
when i said "hourly" i meant "never"
 
Precisely.
 
10:53 PM
@AndrewMicallef i am fairly upfront, but it crosses cultural lines at times, but i am not really brutal.
 
the typesetting in these old princeton UP 'annals of mathematics studies' books is horrible. it's like a caveman etched each character into the page with a stick. great reminder of what led knuth to tex.
 
the null space of expression is fairly large
 
don't get the wrong idea, I'm usually good with people (this guy just has a stick up his arse becuase he used to be at the top of a heirachy, now is at the bottom, and can't stand it when someone he percieves as below him asks him for assistance)
 
i treat people with dignity, but am not too good on the respect part
i don't care if you are the president of the university or a janitor.
 
yeah I think the two go hand in hand though, I think you need to respect everyones humanity, and with that comes treating people with diginity :P
 
10:56 PM
i am not above 'calibrating' my interactions when there is something in it for me, i don't mean to sound like mother teresa.
albeit she was actually fairly brutal based on what i have heard.
 
mother teresa is a bad example for what I think you meant :P
 
sonny barger of the hells angels has or had a saying, "treat me good, i'll treat you better. treat me bad, i'll treat you worse."
 
i tried to meet her once, but she was out that day.
 
@copper.hat yeha
 
nirmal in calcutta
i read something about here that bob geldof wrote. it impressed me.
 
10:58 PM
bob geldof was writing about this chat?
 
:-), her. i am incapable ot tyoing a sentence correctly
 
I don't know much about Ghandi in general, but he wrote a fantastic letter to Hitler , in which he appealed to the furhers better nature and tried to get him to stop acting aggresivley, I think I like to err on that side of interacting with people :P
 
apparently he used to sleep with naked women to test himself.
 
I'd heard that, and it sounds so sleazy
 
it does, but if i was forced to do it...
 
11:02 PM
sorry honey, but i was kidnapped for three days and forced to undergo ascetic testing rituals.
 
i kept failing, but try, try again is my motto
 
let me reframe it for you, who where the women and what compelled them to be naked in Ghandis bed?
 
i did have an infatuation with Ghandi and his writings for a while.
 
did these trials fall out of fashion?
 
i should inventory my books and get rid of the ones i don't want.
 
11:04 PM
there are many things i should get rid of before i get to my books.
 
@leslietownes see above, iwill pay shipping to me of any mathsy ones :P
or any non-mathsy non-fiction ones
 
It's actually expensive shipping internationally.
 
and just for you I might consider paying in leslie tokens or coins or whatever cryptononsense you are into
 
yeah, likely to be more than the price of a used book. particularly if you have closer access to more cheaply printed asia editions of textbooks
 
I can also send u books if u want
 
11:05 PM
ship them surface.
 
hmm, I guess Im not so good at economic thinking huh
 
he'll have tenure by the time it gets there.
 
maybe there is a balikbayan box like thing to Austrailia
 
andrew is the austalian engine expert?
 
no, just an australian
 
11:06 PM
i used to have some rarities but most were lost in the move. i thought it was weird that the USPS lost the highest cash value books, because how would postal workers even know. it was just fate being unkind to me.
 
two of my brothers lived & worked in sydney for a while
 
has anyone read the book "maths made difficult" ?
 
they have ai looking for rare & unused books in they conveyer belt scanner
 
It's pretty darn good, I'm reading it when I go to sleep
 
was it by rudin?
 
11:08 PM
linderholm. a classic
 
The dedication is already pretty good
"To Clement V. Durell, M.A., without whom this book would not have been necessary"
 
wow, on amazon its almost $500!
 
the infringing copy i have contains a typo in the dedication. a misspelling of thomas aquinas.
 
@copper.hat This made me laugh.
 
:-) i'm working on my respect
clearly failing
 
11:10 PM
I doubt it's worth 500$, for that money you can get yourself one of ghandis trials
 
as i am hoping to with the ghandhijiii experiment
not sure i woudl get good return on investment with my hip in current state
 
oh, they made a new edition of pedersen's cstar algebras and their automorphism groups. that's going to push the resale price down for my copy.
dang.
it was impossible to find when i was in grad school
 
@copper.hat I'm still waiting on parts for my motorcycle to arrive from j a pan, I think I don't mind waiting for books I will have forgot I asked for too :P
 
are you a cruiser or a sports bike rider?
 
pokect rocket
 
11:15 PM
i had one of the first suzuki sv650's to arrive in california
unfortunately sold it for a breeze
 
like literal pocket, my bike is light enough that some punks literally picked it up and walked off with it
 
made a promise to my wife if we had kids.
bummer
 
yeah, it's back now, but needs some serious tlc
I'm pretty sure I bought mine of a guy who made a similar promise :P
 
it was an awesome bike. not huge, but adequate as they say
dusted porshes, etc without any bother
 
my prius c does not do this
 
11:20 PM
prius c's are pretty quick aren't they?
 
electric cars have huge torque at standstill.
 
is there a way to get this to apear as two columns?:
$$\begin{align}
u = \frac{1}{g(t)} & g(t) = \frac{1}{u}
\end{align}
$$
 
` _ `
 
sorry
might go ask in tex, huh
 
if you toss some more & in there you can space them out. i don't know if that is tex orthodoxy in the align environment.
 
11:22 PM
\ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \
 
@leslietownes that works
 
$$\begin{align} u & = \frac{1}{g(t)} & & g(t) & = \frac{1}{u} \end{align}$$
 
i use \qquad a lot to space stuff out (or \quad if \qquad is too much)
 
in lieu of exercise i am heading to starmucks
 
looks like i got carried away.
 
11:23 PM
@Quin thanks quin, \quad looks nice in my case
 
i use qquad for spacing if i'm only doing one row, and don't really need columns as much as i need some space. like $$f(x) \to L, \qquad x \to \infty.$$
qquad is probably not tex orthodoxy either.
 
that is a reason to use it :-)
 
if you think you've seen people be stomped on for answering PSQs, see what they do on the tex stackexchange with people who post really kludgy answers.
 
mean bitter people
 
11:26 PM
the scientology-like slang abbreviation for questions on math.SE that do nothing but state a problem and do not provide context such as where the asker is coming from or what they have tried.
problem statement questions, for they contain only a statement of a problem.
 
problem statement question. brings out haters.
i can see the problem for educators.
 
I figure, it seams like someone cheating a homework assignment I guess?
 
Or exams these days.
 
hard to tell sometimes
 
sux, my last question got closed for that reason
 
11:28 PM
cheating? who would ever cheat?
 
Copper, for one.
 
i remember being astounded at berkeley that there was such a thing as a take home exam.
 
oh, this is public huh
 
few things i can declare as absolutes about myself...
 
even if someone isn't cheating it's thought to be abusive of the community and lowering of the quality of the site. there's a meta thread that goes into a whole schism about it.
i had exactly one take home final in graduate school. i went to get a burrito and found about half of my class working on it together, out in the open, at the restaurant.
this was against the rules. it saddened me.
 
11:30 PM
there is a bitterness about it that riles me. i understand the need.
i know people cheated. it bothered the heck out of me
at the graduate level, no less.
 
it was a hard final too, a number of tricks. i identified them but gave up on several. the prof must have been shocked to see someone not finish several of the problems.
 
to misquote captain Jack Sparrow, "The only rules that really matter are these: what a man can do and what a man can't do."
 
being reasonably honest is fundamental to me and a huge limiting factor.
 
i always preferred in-class tests because although they do put pressure on test-taking skills, which can introduce unfairness, they also limit the difficulty of the exam.
and they equalize differentials between out-of-class time that people have to spend on stuff. i tended to take heavy courseloads or work part time, so being able to take something home wasn't a lot of extra time for me. if someone's only taking one hard class, they might have a solid week to spend on an exam.
 
I guess this is academic though, in the real world do people care about test taking ability?
I mean other than professional test takers?
 
11:34 PM
the ability to react in the spot is important
 
i think people care about problem solving, and sometimes speed matters. test taking is a weak proxy for that.
 
try interviewing at google. takes the test taking to a new level
 
but problem solving is also rarley an individual pursuit
 
effective groups work together, most groups are not effective
 
it really depends on the field. sometimes people use scores, tests, quizzes, riddles as a simple gating mechanism. not because it's that important but because you need to get the numbers down before you engage in individualized review
 
11:35 PM
I would posit because most group memebers have had individual problem solving drilled in to them by academics, and don't think to work toether
 
that is true.
 
also a claim that needs to be tested empirically
 
it is hard to teach to start off with, without introducing group dynamics
they screwed up my son's maths education with common core group activities
 
teaching adults is op in my experience
 
of course, I'm just bitter about the narrow focus on individual performance, when in the real world anything worth doing is done as a team
 
11:37 PM
but teaching adults isnt really a thing for some reasons
 
when i first began TAing classes in grad school there was a movement to have at least half of all in-class time be collaborative group work. it was far from collaborative and barely resembled work. people who were lost got more lost. people who weren't were bored or felt put upon when someone had to share what their group had done.
 
my son's takeaway from group activities was not positive, and he is a personable fellow.
 
teaching should be interactive but largely unsupervised group work is a recipe for disaster.
 
leadership is really necessary in all cases.
it does not have to be invasive.
later, starmucks is calling :-)
 
democracy is decadent and weak. you need a strong leader.
 
11:39 PM
@copper.hat ciao
I'll gladly be the benevolent philosopher king of the world
 
11:54 PM
ok, I think I hit another point of confusion.
So I have $$\int{\frac{\partial}{\partial t} g(t)\frac1{g(t)}}\, \mathrm{d}t$$ (and I know the answer is $\ln|g(t)| + C$) I'm trying to get there using substitution (which I thought I had done, but misplaced my scrawls)...
so I start by channelling my inner Ted, and applying substitution: let $u = \frac1{g(t)}$
so then I can get to here with out too much hassle:
$$\int{{\frac{\partial}{\partial t} g(t)}\cdot u^3} -du$$ because 1/g^2 = 1/1/u^2
 
sorry I mean:
$$\int{{\frac{\partial}{\partial t} g(t)}\cdot u^3} du$$
 
i'd check your expression for $du$
 
the stumble I'm having is what to do with $\frac{\partial}{\partial t} g(t)$
 
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