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7:03 PM
I don't know what the word transverse here means, but my intuition says that the identity map $(0,1)\to [0,1]$ would fail?
 
Hello
 
Hi
 
@Thorgott What about $M = [0, 1] \setminus \{1/3\} \sqcup \{\star\}$, map sending $\star$ to $1/3$
 
Do people permit smooth manifolds that are disconnected?
 
Manifolds are allowed to be disconnected, yes.
 
7:06 PM
I do want connected, if the points aren't in the same component, the answer is no but for uninteresting reasons
also @Balarka that's not a submersion at the 0-dimensional point
 
Good point, but you can make that point an interval.
Project in a submersive way.
 
am I missing a larger point you're trying to make or are you just pointing out that the fibers may lie in distinct components?
 
I was just giving a counterexample to the question. Now that you have added "connected" it is no longer a counterexample.
 
fair, I'm not in a position to complain about trivial counter-examples
 
7:13 PM
so what's the answer to the revised question? or is it actually not clear?
 
I wish I hadn't thorgott the definition of a path being transverse to the fibres of f, but such is life
 
Nowhere vertical.
 
@tigre heheeeeeey!!
 
@BalarkaSen Can you recover an infinite graph from it?
 
It is a random rooted $\Bbb Z$, yeah.
 
7:15 PM
Hello Ted.
 
Makes sense
 
By Ehresmann it's a trivial bundle over $[0,1]$, so it's a simpler question.
Hi Simone.
 
No, why would it be proper?
 
Oops.
 
Limits of graphs are very interesting, I'm doing attempting to do some work with them
 
7:18 PM
You do get a foliation on $M$. And you can go from one point on a leaf to another point on another leaf by a path transverse to all leaves.
This is known as the "waterfall construction".
I don't have the energy to spell it out for Thorgott though, so I was just trolling him
More fun
@AlessandroCodenotti Cool! Let me know if this particular notion intrigues you more
 
Here's the question I actually want to answer: Say $W$ is smooth, compact with boundary $M_0\sqcup M_1$ and $f\colon W\rightarrow[0,1]$ is a submersion with $f(M_0)=0$ and $f(M_1)=1$. Is $f^{-1}(0)=M_0$?
 
Benjamini-Schramm limits have some kind of "time-reversal" symmetry always, which is known as unimodularity in literature. The big open problem is if every unimodular graph a Benjamini-Schramm limit, which would imply every group is sofic.
 
Of course not, Thor.
 
Ok now I am very intrigued with this notion
(I'm working with a very different kind of limit which is much closer to an inverse limit of discrete graphs to get some zero dimensional metric graph in the end)
 
That is cool!
 
7:23 PM
@tigre Just consider them Set-valued, since after all when I talk about a module I'm asking that there be a set-map R x M -> M with certain properties.
 
I have always wondered if you could do profinite coarse geometry
Because why not
 
It seems like you can do coarse geometry with anything. I'm taking a seminar on coarse geometry of Polish groups next term
 
@Thor Think about mapping a cylinder to a cylinder over a figure 8.
 
I don't get your point Ted, he's assuming this is a submersion
I have a proof his claim is correct
Could be wrong but I don't think so
Actually your point that this is a trivial fiber bundle is also sufficient since $W \cong M_0 \times [0,1]$
 
Maybe I can't do this over the interval.
 
7:27 PM
But yes it is @Thorgott. Take $f^{-1}(0) = S$. If $S$ has an interior component then the differential maps $df: NS \to \Bbb R$ isomorphically on each fiber. In particular $f$ decreases on "one side" of $N_x S$ and increases on the other side. If $f(x) = 0$ this prohibits $x$ being an interior point.
In general if $f: M \to N$ is a submersion of manifolds with boundary this argument shows that $f^{-1}(\partial N) \subset \partial M$.
 
@AlessandroCodenotti a coarse polish is what one does to a telescope mirror to test the figure.
 
Of course @Mike is right. Ted fails.
 
It is interesting that Thor's real question has nothing to do with the question he was asking 10 minutes ago.
 
That's what I was just thinking about.
 
7:32 PM
Fortunately I ignored whatever that was.
 
It's a good question.
 
they actually do have something to do with each other
but let me figure out this argument first
 
How were sofic and surjunctive groups related? @Balarka
 
8:00 PM
those are words?
 
@Astyx hi, do you remember me?
 
Kind of
Hi
 
8:18 PM
Ah wait, it's much easier to see contrapositively. If $p$ is interior in $M$, every tangent vector at $p$ can be represented by a curve with domain $(-\epsilon,\epsilon)$, but then, since $f$ is a submersion, every tangent vector at $f(p)$ can be represented by a curve with domain $(-\epsilon,\epsilon)$ and so the image is an interior point.
 
Sure, that's the same argument
So what's your goal
 
now Ehresmann goes through and tells me $W\cong M_0\times[0,1]$, that's the goal
 
8:37 PM
If we let P(n) be the set of all positive definite, symmetric nxn matrices and T(n) be all the upper-triangular matrices with positive diagonal, then is there an obvious way that the map $A \mapsto A^\top BA$ is an isomorphism (even bijection) from $T(n)\to P(n)$, where $B\in P(n)$ is fixed? I was trying to fiddle around with the spectral decomposition which it allegedly relates to but I am not sure how.
 
what does this notation mean? (3 above 2), i only know chose, but I can't remember if the lower number is above or vice versa
 
8:55 PM
ah yes
 
The top number will be >= to the bottom number.
 
ah ok, then I found a typo, nice
 
Though brackets like that can be used for matrices/vectors, as well, not sure the context of where you are seeing it. :P
 
ah no, didnt found a typo, but now i understand
it was a question about at least 2 heads out of 3 tosses
 
Yeah, so that was probably "3 choose 2" for choosing which two of three tosses.
 
9:01 PM
yep and then added to the event that there are three heads
which was then 3 choose 3?
will there ever be buttons for the various mathnotations on se?
 
Use mathjax (LaTeX). :)
It's the standard in the mathematical community.
 
@anakhro This is correct. You have an action of the group T(n) on the space of positive definite symmetric matrices. To see that it acts transitively on some element B it suffices to show it acts transitively on I, aka, that every pos def symmetric guy is of the form A^T A for A upper triangular with positive diagonal.
You know that as soon as you know (a) that every pos def symmetric guy is A^T A for some A and (b) the QR decomposition.
To see that it acts without stabilizer on one element it now suffices to show it acts without stabilizer on the identity matrix, aka, that if A^T A = I for A upper triangular with positive diagonal entries, then A = I. This seems clear from an inductive argument.
Actually I guess induction is unnecessary ...
Seems pretty easy to construct A by hand given the information that A^T A = B
 
what is the right way to write down all possible events with 3 (or more) cointosses?
so that you don't write down one by accident two times
 
9:40 PM
@MikeMiller when you say "acts without stabilizer", you mean transitively?
 
No, those are opposite questions
 
if $\bar{A}\cap B\neq\phi$, does this imply $A\cap B\neq\phi$?
 
The stabilizer of a group action on an element $B$, written $G_B$, is the set of all $g$ with $g \cdot B = B$
Notice that $G_{g \cdot B} = g G_B g^{-1}$ so if $G_B = {1}$ the same is true for any other point in the orbit of B
 
So "acts without stabilizer on <element>" is just where the stabilizer of <element> is trivial? I just am not familiar with the phrase.
 
In particular if you have a group G acting on a set X so that the action is transitive and G_x = {1} for some element x, then in fact G acts freely on X; the map g mapsto gx is a bijection for any x in X
(If the action-on-x map gives a bijection G -> X for one x, it does for all x)
Yes
It's probably not a standard phrase, I hope it's clear why those are meant to mean the same thing.
 
10:08 PM
Hmmm. Is there a way to circumvent the use of QR decomposition (out of curiosity)? Thanks by the way, your explanation for how it works helps.
 
I think another site, math.underflow is needed to cope with the covid influx.
 
10:39 PM
@Simple let $B$ be a point in $\overline{A}$ that is not in $A$.
 
11:08 PM
@anakhro Your claim is basically equivalent to QR. What I said and the very end gives a hands-on proof.
 
@LeakyNun thank you
 
Your "mild amusement" in observing folks coming on the chat and asking questions that require just a modicum of their own effort to answer is leaking out @copper.hat....😝
 
Hey @Ted!
 
Hi, robjohn. I like copper's underflow idea.
Look at most of my comments on main, @dc3rd.
 
11:27 PM
@TedShifrin where the seedier math is done.
 
11:39 PM
Our math has gone to seed.
 
Your comments on specific questions @TedShifrin or is there a dedicated comment section on the main site?
 
No, comments on questions, of course.
I just left a constructive one for a person I did battle with a few days ago. But most are about expecting us to do exams/homework.
 
ah....lol.....well I have peeped those the last few weeks whenever you've hyperlinked a vent of frustration here......🤣..............but folks have been getting real lippy with you when you are providing help. Which to me is amazing...considering you are doing this out of your own good will...
young whoopersnappers haven't fathomed a time when you didn't have the privilege of being able to search on the internet for instant help.......
 
Hi there, I have a 3x3 rotation matrix and I would like to use Mathematica to compute the angles symbolically. Is Mathematica capable of doing so?
something like the above
 
Doubtful.
 
11:50 PM
@CroCo are $c\alpha,s\beta$ etc shorthand for $\cos\alpha$ and $\sin\beta$ etc
 
I hate Euler angles.
 
@Semiclassical yes
 
okay. You may be able to make that work in Mathematica but I would say it's not a great idea
well
 
@TedShifrin their simplicity is beneficial.
 
And their not being well-defined?
 
11:51 PM
@TedShifrin the only reason i have for respecting euler angles is their relation to practical mechanics
 
I gave up.
Mathematica is very awkward manipulating trig. And
 
insofar as they matter when actually applying rotations to real-world scenarios, i can appreciate them.
 
@TedShifrin depending on the application. In my course, controlling quadrotor that doesn't perform aggressive maneuvers, it would be suffice.
 
but as math they're awful
one thing I will say is that it's relatively easy to use Mathematica to verify equation 2.74
 
using quaternion is efficient but it is not intuitive.
 
11:55 PM
that is: if you define $\alpha,\beta,\gamma$ in terms of inverse tangents (using ArcTan[x,y]) then computing 2.72 should simplify to 2.73
 
Huh? ArcTan who?
 
@TedShifrin tedious hand calculations is not my strength.
 
ArcTan[x,y]. it computes angle based on x,y coordinates rather than the ratio y/x
which is nice because it's not ambiguous
that's how I interpret their notation, moreover
 
ArcTan isn't ambiguous.
You’re telling me it's not actually arctan.
 
@Semiclassical $2\tan^{-1}\left(\frac{y}{x+\sqrt{x^2+y^2}}\right)$
 
11:57 PM
yeah, I should've said atan2
mathematica just implements that using ArcTan rather than a separate function
 
Which I've never seen before. Crazy.
 
I use it all the time
 
yeah, atan2 is great
 
Good thing I'm retired and dumb.
 
@TedShifrin any symbolic software you see beneficial? Any suggestions? I know Matlab but for long calculations, it becomes nightmare.
 
11:59 PM
I hate Matlab.
 
lol
 
mathematica can also do rotation matrices, but i'm not sure about Euler angles
 
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