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3:00 PM
However I'm confused, $\nabla\sigma\in\Gamma(E\otimes T^\ast M)$ and $\mathfrak X\in\Gamma(TM)$, why can I feed the latter to the former?
 
that's exactly right
 
Hmmm
I don't see how this gives me a section of $E$
 
so this is a linear algebra fact
suppose you have vector spaces $V$ and $W$. You have a natural pairing $V\otimes W^*\times W\to V$
 
Actually I think this boils down to me not understanding tensor products with duals, for example I don't see the identification $\mathrm{End}(E)\simeq E\otimes E^\ast$ either
 
you lift this to the category of vector bundles
by general nonsense this induces a bundle morphism which is exactly what you're using
 
3:06 PM
@RyanUnger Can you spell out the natural pairing sorry? $(v\otimes f,w)\mapsto?$
 
@AlessandroCodenotti $(v\otimes f,w)\mapsto f(w)v$
 
Ohhh, sure $f(w)$ is a scalar... derp
Thanks
 
@AlessandroCodenotti so you always have $V\otimes W^*\cong Hom(V,W)$
 
I think you want $Hom(W,V)$
So that the identification is $v\otimes f\mapsto(w\mapsto f(w)v)$ like in your previous example
 
oops yeah
 
3:11 PM
But this makes a lot of sense
 
do you want a brainlet way to think about this
for when algebra is too hard
 
So if I take $V=W$ and lift everything to vector bundles I get the $\mathrm{End}(E)=E\otimes E^\ast$ thing from earlier
@RyanUnger Sure
 
so a tensor is just an object with indices
upper index for $V$, lower index for $V^*$
 
That smells of physicists
 
so $V^*\otimes W$ has an upper $W$ index and a lower $V$ index
I mean an element of that guy
 
3:13 PM
Ok
 
but think about Hom(V,W)
you take something in V and send it to something in W
now upper indices get paired with lower indices. So to act on a vector in V we need a lower V index
 
and to map into W we need an upper W index
 
Makes sense
 
so the elements in Hom(V,W) have one upper W idnex and one lower V index
exactly like $V^*\otimes W$
so they're isomorphic
 
3:15 PM
I see
 
this is literally how people in harmonic map theory (not physics) work with tensor products of bundles
they do some coordinate computations and then count indices
this tells you which bundle you're working on
 
Ah, I see
So going back to connections there's a natural identification of $E\otimes T^\ast M$ with $\mathrm{Hom}(TM,E)$, which is great since I have an element of $TM$ lying around and I need to produce an element of $E$
 
exactly!
 
Well there's sections everywhere, but this is fine
Makes sense now, thanks! Now it's time for Clifford connections and Dirac operators...
 
@AlessandroCodenotti lmao that's even worse
there's another product to keep track of now
 
3:19 PM
I know
Such is life in noncommutative geometry
What does $\mathfrak Xf$ mean when $\mathfrak X$ is a smooth vector field on $M$ and $f\in\mathcal C^\infty(M)$?
 
do you mean vector field
 
yes sorry
 
vectors are defined as acting on functions
 
No wait, so $(\mathfrak Xf)(p)=\mathfrak X(p)f(p)$, right?
for $p\in M$
 
uh what
do you know what tangent vectors are
 
3:33 PM
I believe so
Uh I'm getting confused with the module of vector fields
 
to be like absolutely pedantic
$(Xf)(p)=(X_pf)(p)$
 
@Alessandro there are different definitions of tangent vectors, for this it's best to think of them as derivations on $C^{\infty}(M)$
 
How does that fit with the definition of vector field as a section of $TM$ that I'm familiar with?
 
I don't know what you're familiar with
section of $TM$ just means you assign to each $x\in M$ a tangent vector in $T_xM$
 
Right, but how does that act on a function?
 
3:39 PM
a tangent vector $v \in T_xM$ is a $\Bbb R$-linear derivation $v:C^\infty(M) \to \Bbb R$, i.e. it satisfies $v(fg)=v(f)g(x)+f(x)v(g)$
so it acts on a function by definition
 
Oh, ok I get it now
I was thinking about immersed manifolds and tangent spaces as vector spaces
Perfect, it clicked now, sorry for taking so long!
 
immersed manifolds are the only true manifolds
 
But then you don't need derivations to define the tangent spaces :P
 
it's just taking directional derivative along the vector
even if you want to think the immersedly
personally I think the derivations definition is the "wrong perspective" for manifold topology
 
@BalarkaSen oh no
do I want to know what you think is correct
 
3:46 PM
namely, a tangent vector is very obviously a derivation because you take the directional derivative along it. a derivation isn't obviously a tangent vector, and in fact you need a crucial "Taylor's theorem without reminders" for it, which says any smooth function $f$ can be written as $f = \sum x^i g_i$ in local coordinates where $g_i$ are smooth
this is false in $C^k$ because the regularity of $g_i$ goes one down to $C^{k-1}$
 
ok sure
but C^k topology isn't a thing
it's a Theorem in Hirsch
and his definition of tangent spaces is so complicated
 
convolve whoosh whoosh
 
Thanks again for your answers, it was super helpful! I have to go now, bye everyone!
 
@RyanUnger the right definition of tangent space $T_p M$ is obviously surely collection of tangent vectors to smooth curves passing through $p \in M$
works for any Frechet manifold right?
 
I've never had to work with Frechet manifolds
 
3:56 PM
I'd like to make statements like "Lie algebra of $\text{Diff}(M)$ is $\mathfrak{X}(M)$" precise, say, as a motivation
Personally I like to think of $\text{Diff}(M)$ as a simplicial group instead of an infinite dimensional manifold at all :3
 
@BalarkaSen sure
is that actually true tho
I'm extremely skeptical of such claims
 
I don't know, just made that up. Feels like it should be
$M$ is compact manifold for simplicity
There are issues if it's not compact, because then $\text{Diff}(M)$ will not be locally contractible under the weak Whitney topology, in particular it's not a Banach manifold. Then you have to deal with strong Whitney topology which is ugh
 
@Adam Ein sof is super weird. It basically bleds God's essence from its domain all the way down to the physical world. I have not read much Kabbalah before get pulled into reading Zen Buddhism, so I have not done much study on the nature of Ein Sof yet
 
4:25 PM
"Foreign glass" syndrome
When you're not sure if a glass of water is yours or someone else's, 'cause you don't remember putting your glass there
 
It now has a name.
 
5:24 PM
I mean not to alarm anyone, but I have just devoured an entire large pineapple in a 10 minute sitting
and in the process I ripped off a fingernail
and cut my hand
 
I'm almost certain it's gonna give me some kind of stomach ulcer
 
Yeah too much pineapple ain't good for you
A little bit is fine
 
@BalarkaSen atm I only care about noncompact manifolds
 
I kinda lost self-control and just smashed my face into it
 
5:33 PM
oof
 
hahaha
 
oof x2
 
twoof
 
@
loiolol
@MatsGranvik well that's why I'm in a bad mood this weekend after reading that a lot of the authors for the algorithms I'll be studying next claim themselves as ultrafinitists and their computers are coauthors, Like yes its very funny and I too liked to jest that maple is the best girlfriend ever but yeah I guess it just demonstrates how deep to the core the paradox is and how easy it is to raise the assumption levels to the danger zones of saying garbage
Like ok, yes I understand they may have their reasoning for having the belief but bringing that into the picture is ruining the best thing about mathematics
@Secret everything becomes normal if you are exposed to it for long enough that's my bubble wrap principle for imminent trauma, it's the bubble wrap for something worse to experience lol but no you don't need to be freaked out of course it reads like an episode of game of thrones the dialogue was written drawing from it I can only assume, apart from the other infinitude of reasons it sucks
all olden timey translations are written in that dramatic style
I'm guessing Pythagoras noticed the popularity of the dramatic amongst the chuds and that's when he started to announce "I see dead people" and formed a cult
 
6:05 PM
What is a good way of describing cardinality in adjective form? For example, is it appropriate to write: the two-member set of ...?
 
All these packages are so awesome but I cant help but feel as if it would be neat if there was one that allowed you to import a circuit board layout from a datasheet into a project. @ÍgjøgnumMeg no megan you don't get stomach ulcers from pineapples unless you let it ferment and drink it ever day, even still ive never had stomach ulcers. i probably should have
 
6:42 PM
ffs it was the same thing as when I was reading Alan Baker's theorems anyway this guy did something very powerful en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wu_Wenjun
Characteristic Set Method is what I was referring to if that isn't clear
 
7:01 PM
I can really appreciate this one because it's one of my old favourite go to approaches, using the logical conjunction in anything other that the study of formal logic usually has the twits complaining but it really does become meaningless if you are not going to use principles of logic to make algebraic conclusions
but I guess I would need a respect costume to start talking like that
 
7:17 PM
@Monad "$n$-element set"?
 
is this how to meme?
 
7:59 PM
Quiet today
 
The choice of the programming meaning assigned to "$" is pretty funny looking at how random number generators work
if u like metal you should def take a listen to audioslave youtu.be/vOb3RJhlvfA
 
8:34 PM
here is a challenge: 1) Estimate the reduction in government revenue and increase in public housing expenditure in the hypothetical scenario that all illicit drugs are decriminalised in your country 2) Estimate the historical expectation in civilian lives saved p.a and plot this against military and law enforcement expenditure p.a
3) Will the rate of home invasions and crimes of violence be likely to increase or decrease in the hypothetical scenario outlined in (1)? 4) What is likely to happen to the number of people inflicted with addictions to these substances? 5) What is likely to happen to the profits of criminal syndicates? 6) Which pharmaceutical company will be allowed to distribute these substances and monopolize on the market for them?
 
@Adam audioslave is not bad at all
a little too popular for my taste but they're good
 
Silencer
Unironic DSBM
 
yeah I mean if you listen to rage against the machine you are likely to get accused of being a socialist or a communist, but their views are actually pretty libertarian, when they criticise the free market in some of their lyrics its because there is nothing free about it in many regards
 
@ÍgjøgnumMeg LOL a DSBM fan is it
 
I thought I was the only one
 
8:45 PM
you, my friend, are not alone
 
I am more an atmospheric black metal guy
 
saaame
wtf
 
Ulver's first album, Drudkh, Agollach, Burzum and Summoning I praise
make of that what you will!
 
Love them all
lol
 
(i also listen to a ton of other shit)
@ÍgjøgnumMeg Shit we're a match
 
8:48 PM
I have a rather large playlist on Spotify called "Black Metal... mostly"
like 600 songs
kvmpiled lvingly
 
trv kvult
 
trvvv
lol stop
 
kids these days like hipster black metal for some reason
deafheaven lol
 
tbf I like Numenorean
which is some kind of mainstream sounding blackgazey stuff
 
I liked "Road To Judah" and "Sunbather" (the first more than the second) from Deafheaven
 
8:54 PM
ok so I say shut up, it's a six day ban and there is shit all over the room now
 
not TRVVVV
 
I also like Alcest
yah it's not TRVV
 
just .. spray shit over everything you see then
 
$\mathbb{Schitt}$
sad
wait test $\Bbb c$
ahhh
$\mathbb{SCHITT}$
better
 
$\mathscr{SCHITT}$
 
8:56 PM
lol hi @Mathein
 
hi @ÍgjøgnumMeg
 
Hey @Mathein
 
just reading Milne's introductory section on CFT
 
Hi @Balarka
 
cool af
 
8:57 PM
yeah CFT is nice
the proofs are tough, though
 
I've heard as much :P He's just giving definitions of class fields and ray class fields and stuff, giving the motivation
 
if $f_n \to f$ pointwise and ${f_n}' \overset{\text{unif}}{\to}g$ on an unbounded interval, we can say $f' = g$, right?
I know that on a bounded interval it's enough
followup question: on a bounded interval, it's enough for $f_n(x_0) \to f(x_0)$ for a point $x_0$ in the bounded interval. Is there a way to extend that hypothesis to need only one point of convergence on an unbounded interval?
something like it holding for a point on every bounded subinterval or something
 
9:14 PM
Blum, Blum, and Shub generator doesn't differ very much from the standard if there is a method for determining $m$ knowing $x_i$ that could be potentially not cool $x_{k+1}=x_k^{m} \operatorname{mod} n$
well it wouldn't affect me im trailer trash lol
but this seems like fun i mean opposed to doing nothing
 
There's something to be said for taking an ordinary meal and then just frying it in really really hot butter
 
9:42 PM
@GFauxPas: Just restrict to bounded intervals $[x_0,b]$ and let $b$ increase. If you know convergence is uniform on $[x_0,\infty)$, then you certainly know it's uniform on any such compact subinterval.
Hi @ÍgjøgnumMeg.
 
Hi @Ted
 
Heya, a @Balarka!
 
I have a point in 3d space and am looking to find a unit quaternion that describes the direction of the point related to the origin. Any ideas on how to do this?
 
@Mason: I guess I don't understand the subtlety. Why not take the unit vector in that direction?
 
@Ted My $O(n)$ construction earlier actually realizes every group as a symmetry group of some nonregular polytope in general. Symmetry groups of regular polytopes are quite restrictive; they are reflection groups.
I have been on a streak thinking about polyhedra since :P
 
9:47 PM
Interesting.
I would expect it's still quite symmetric, since a generic polytope has no symmetries.
 
Ya of course
Here's a group theoretic Gauss-Bonnet for you: $\langle a, b, c | a^2, b^2, c^2, (ab)^p, (bc)^q, (ac)^r \rangle$ is finite if $1/p + 1/q + 1/r > 1$ and infinite if $1/p + 1/q + 1/r < 1$.
 
Oh, interesting! What if $=1$?
 
Still infinite but distinctly different. Here's the general statement: if $> 1$ it's a subgroup of $SO(3)$, if $< 1$ it's a subgroup of $\text{SL}_2(\Bbb R)$, if $= 1$ it's a subgroup of $\Bbb R^2 \rtimes SO(2)$
The isometry groups of the model geometries in 2 dimension
I was oversimplifying with the finite/infinite thing
 
Oh wow.
Tell Artin to put this in his book :P
what gets you from SO to SL?
Is there any suitable obvious generalization to $n>3$?
 
It's the group generated by reflections along the sides of an abstract geodesic triangle with angles $\pi/p, \pi/q, \pi/r$.
Those are $a, b, c$
 
9:59 PM
oh, I see, so elliptic versus hyperbolic
 
Right
@TedShifrin Yeah, Coxeter groups
 
and then the parabolic case ...
 
I shouldn't have said $SO(3)$, I meant $O(3)$.
Similarly $O(2)$, unoriented isometry groups
 
of course
 
I like how it's totally nonobvious from the presentation itself that it's going to be finite if $1/p + 1/q + 1/r > 1$ but once you realize it as a triangle group like that, it's a discrete subgroup of $O(3)$, so finite.
 
10:02 PM
Is it "obvious" that it's infinite in the hyperbolic case?
 
@TedShifrin I'm really struggling to find a way to describe the question I have well, so here goes: I want to define a coordinate system so that the x direction is facing a specified point. In ROS, coordinate transforms are defined using unit quaternions, which is why I mentioned that.
 
OK, @Mason, but you can think of the unit $\Bbb R^3$ vector as a unit quaternion. Or are you trying to do something fancy like represent a rotation in $\Bbb R^3$ by quaternionic multiplication?
For the latter, this might help.
 
@Ted Tile the hyperbolic plane by $(p, q, r)$ triangles if $1/p + 1/q + 1/r < 1$. The translates of a single triangle by this group gives all the triangles, so you can keep composing reflections in a way that will take one edge in the fundamental triangle to corresponding edges in triangles far off towards the ideal boundary
That gives an infinite order element. Less cleaner than the elliptic case
 
Yeah, sure.
 
You can cook the elliptic ones by taking an arrangement of three 2-planes in $\Bbb R^3$ and looking at the group generated by them. These will actually be full symmetry groups of various regular polyhedra, except the degenerate cases (which is indirectly true because that's what discrete subgroups of $O(3)$ are).
 
10:12 PM
Sure.
 
$\langle a, b, c | a^2, b^2, c^2, (ab)^2, (bc)^3, (ac)^5 \rangle$ is $A_5 \times \Bbb Z_2$, for example, which @Akiva helped me prove
 
oh oh ... it's demonic @Alessandro
I always have to think back to whether the Spin double cover gives the direct product in this case.
 
Ah no that's the nonsplit central extension, the "binary icosahedral group"
 
I put an exercise like that in my algebra book, even, but I never berember.
OK.
What's the presentation for that?
 
We never did figure out what element corresponds to $(e,1)$ (the center)
 
10:15 PM
Oh look ... it's a DogAteMy.
 
It's a me
 
Where are you these days?
 
New York
 
Aha.
 
@Ted A useful presentation for $A_5$ is $\langle x, y | x^2 = y^3 = (xy)^5 = 1 \rangle$ (this is the "von Dyck subgroup" of the triangle group), and the binary icosahedral guy is $\langle x, y | x^2 = y^3 = (xy)^5 \rangle$ if I am not too off.
 
10:17 PM
Hmm, interesting.
heya @Eric
 
@ÍgjøgnumMeg that entirely depends on what your metabolism is like, it can be essential for some fatal for others
 
My handy example is always the preimage of $V_4$ under $SU(2) \to SO(3)$. That's $Q_8$, group of coordinate quarternions, the central $\Bbb Z_2$-extension of $V_4$
In particular that means since $A_5$ contains $V_4$, the binary icosahedral group contains $Q_8$ as a subgroup of index $15$.
$A_5 \times \Bbb Z_2$ has no such subgroup!
Nor does $S_5$
So it's genuinely a different beast
 
You've reverted to algebra Balarka :P
 
yeah so I guess at some point I should write a translator since there is just that many that had to call a familiar thing something new with an impressive placeholder that has homo in it en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homomorphism en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiplicative_function
and an ism it's all about the isms and the homos
 
Excuse me?
 
10:30 PM
you maybe excused :P
 
@TedShifrin Ah, but when I am thinking of $Q_8$ as a subgroup of $S^3$ I am really thinking of Hatcher's twist-glue cube picture. A modification of that gives the $3$-manifold $S^3/Q_8$. Do you still want to call me an algebraist? :)
 
@TedShifrin hlo
 
Yes, I remember working that Hatcher exercise. That was fun.
I put a grad student at my board with lots of colors of chalk :P
 
It was infuriating though
 
It was?
 
10:32 PM
I didn't know how to draw properly back in 2015 in self-defense
:3
 
Maybe I still don't know how to draw properly.
 
Hey @Ted :)
 
Hm the formula $\sum (1 - 1/r_i) = 2(1 - 1/n)$ for a subgroup $G$ of $SO(3)$ acting on it's poles on $S^2$ can be derived just from Riemann-Hurwitzing on $S^2 \to S^2/G$, which is a branched cover, right?
To be clear I know it comes from orbit-stabilizer and some counting, but I think you can package that with R-H
 
I'm sure you can.
Is $S^2/G$ an orbifold?
Must be.
 
Yeah
Every pole is modelled on $\Bbb Z/n$ acting on $D^2$ - model 2D orbifold
Because stabilizers are cyclic
 
10:45 PM
Yeah. I guess I've never thought about R-H in the non-smooth case.
 
I think $S^2/G$ is homeomorphic to $S^2$ but I don't know how I would quite see it without apriori knowing these are polyhedral groups. If we trust it then RH says $2 = 2|G| - \sum_p (r_p - 1)$ where $p$ varies over the poles, and $r_p$ is the order of the stabilizer subgroup of $p$, the ramification index
That's the good old $\sum_p (r_p - 1) = 2(n - 1)$
You just choose representatives $p_1, \cdots, p_k$, use orbit-stabilizer $r_p |\mathcal{O}(p)| = n$ and rearrange to get there now
Same moral content as the count basically.
Holy shit it's 4 in the morning
 
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