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1:01 PM
Hm, I don't think I am familiar with everything to understand the significance of this result.
 
The main motivation lies in surgery theory, which unfortunately I'm not so familiar with
 
OK.
 
But I bring it up, since proving this is what motivated sullivan to invent the theory of localisation of topological spaces at primes
And I think that theory is definitely appealing, and should make algebraization of homotopy theory seem appealing
 
I think of localization of spaces completely opposite to how you describe it; instead of localizing the homotopy and homology groups at $p$ and then using some roundabout Hurewicz mod C arguments you just do it at the level of the space. Much more geometric.
This is the perspective I gained from reading Sullivan's original 1970 MIT notes at least
 
Funnily enough, those are the notes that I have read.
 
1:07 PM
I think you can construct the localization at p pretty explicit, by using $p$-local spheres, which are homotopy colimits of a bunch of $S^n$'s with degree $p$ maps going between, and $p$-local balls instead of spheres and balls when constructing a CW complex
 
Hello@SohamChowdhury
 
Yes, this is the approach I take, but after this setup, I prefer to treat it using fancy symbols :P
 
I don't know what you mean, you just invert the functions not divisible by p
:P
 
I.e. fix a classifying space representating the theory of $S_l^{n}$- local spherical fibrations $[-,B_l^n]_{free}$
 
What's your construction of localizing a simple space $X$ at $\ell$?
 
1:10 PM
How are you defining a simple space?
 
Nilpotent space, whatever you want to call it. $\pi_n$ are trivial $\Bbb Z\pi_1$-modules
This is the key assumption, no?
 
Let me think, I haven't thought about this explicitly in a long time
 
I am just curious what your abstract theory of localization is
 
I always tangle up two types of localisation and two types of completion
 
I haven't seen this before
Oh I never got around to reading the completion part in Sullivan
@LeakyNun Yeah, that's what it is. Given a, say simply connected, space $X$ you cook up a new space $X_P$ such that the homotopy groups of $X_{P}$ are $\pi_n(X) \otimes \mathbb{Z}_P$, where $P$ is the multiplicative set generated by some primes.
And it's a fantastic theorem of Sullivan that this happens iff the homology groups are $H_n(X)\otimes \Bbb Z_P$!
To give perspective, you can construct $S^n_P$ where $P = \langle p \rangle$ by taking a bunch of tubes $S^n \times I$ and gluing it front-to-back by a degree $p$ map $S^n \to S^n$
This "kills all $p$-torsion", or "inverts $p$-times any class" in the homotopy groups
 
1:21 PM
So you do like this theory :P
 
This has always been very nonobvious to me - it follows from Sullivan's theorem but it's not clear at all why this should make the homotopy groups $p$-local
@TedE I don't know much about the theory beyond the basics but I like this, yes, because it's one of the few things I can "see"
How do you invert $p$ at the space level? Just do an infinite mapping cylinder construction, like it should be!
 
Strangely, this is the part that seems least intuitive to me
Taking $\ell$ to be a set of primes, and localisation at $\ell$ means taking an infinite mapping telescope over maps whose degrees form a cofinal set in the set of primes not in $\ell$
 
Just do it for one prime.
The homotopy colimit of $\cdots \to S^n \stackrel{\times p}{\to} S^n \stackrel{\times p}{\to} S^n$ has homology groups $\Bbb Z_p$ in dimension $n$ and $0$ otherwise
 
Shouldn't you be taking maps whose degrees are not p?
 
1:29 PM
No?
I guess I'll have to look at the notes again
 
We're doing $\Bbb Z_{\langle p \rangle}$ not $\Bbb Z_{(p)}$, right? Just check the homology group of the thing I wrote down.
 
@BalarkaSen is there a "picture" for low-dimension?
 
@TedE The generator for the $k$-th $S^n$ in the colimit diagram is represented by $1/p^{k-1}$ in $\Bbb Z_p$
@LeakyNun I think John Baez draws a picture somewhere for the rationalization, which being localization at the prime ideal $(0)$
You just think of a bunch of tubes attached by wrapping the end of one $p$ times around the beginning of the other
 
@BalarkaSen Oh, you're taking $\ell = primes -\{p\}$
 
Is this a localization at or away from confusion
I am localizing $\Bbb Z$ at the multiplicative set $\{1, p, p^2, \cdots\}$ to be clear
 
1:34 PM
Well, I'm just using what I believe is his notation for $\Bbb S^n_{\ell}$
 
I don't remember his notes by heart :P
i just know what the math means
 
Sure, but I can only agree with what you say if the words you use are correct :P
 
If $\ell$ is a multiplicative set, by $X_\ell$ I mean the space whose $\pi_n$ is $\pi_n(X) \otimes \Bbb Z_\ell$, where by $\Bbb Z_\ell$ I mean like everyone does, localizing $\Bbb Z$ at the multiplicative set $\ell$
 
Your thing is $\Bbb S^n_{\ell}$ for $\ell = primes-\{p\}$, rather than what I thought you meant which had $\ell = \{p\}$ and the degree of the maps in the telescope in the latter case would be products of primes other than $p$
 
I am just doing $\ell = \langle p \rangle$
my notation is standard i believe
 
1:37 PM
Sullivans notation wasn't standard :P
But I understand now
 
like every geometer he doesnt care about algebra conventions
So $S^n_p$ is an $M(\Bbb Z_p, n)$-space which is already quite telling
It's not at all clear what the degree $p$ map $S^n \to S^n$ does to homotopy groups
But this says it acts nilpotently
Fascinating stuff
 
1:52 PM
The degree $p$ map $S^2 \to S^2$ acts by multiplication by $p^2$ on $\pi_3 S^2 = \Bbb Z$ because composing with the Hopf fibration $S^3 \to S^2 \to S^2$ you get that the linking number of two generic circle fibers is $p^2$ (by thinking of the configuration as being homologous to $p$ nearby circles linked to $p$ nearby circles, each pair linking with linking number +1)
So that's at least explicit
 
Oh, you're not a fan of the algebraization, since you actually understand homotopy theory well lol
 
I mean I can't see a single homotopy group other than $\pi_3 S^2$
That's just topology not homotopy theory
I'm not a fan of algebraization because I can't understand algebra lol
 
You can see $\pi_1(T)$
 
Haha, I meant higher homotopy groups of spheres
 
Sure :')
Is there a way to actually visualise using the freudenthal suspension theorem
 
1:58 PM
Yeah for example I think that tells you the generator of $\pi_4 S^2$ is $S^4 \to S^3 \to S^2$ where the first map is suspension of the Hopf fibration and the second map is the Hopf fibration.
But why is that 2-torsion????
No damn clue
(Or generator of $\pi_4 S^3$ is the suspension of the Hopf fibration, even)
 
Did you want to read some basic notes with me? math.stanford.edu/~vakil/245/245class1.pdf
(on a different topic though :P)
Maybe you already know this stuff
 
yeah sure ill read
 
Awesome
 
2:17 PM
So complication 1 is that working over non-algebraically closed fields means the points of some galois orbit may be identified in some sense

Complication 2 says that we have to be careful with double points

I'd guess there should be a complication 3, where we intersect a non-singular curve through the singularity of some singular curve
Like $f(x,y)=x^3-y^2$ and $g(x,y)=y$ at the origin. I guess I'll compute
Do I not just get $k[x,y]/(x^3-y^2,y)\cong k[x]/(x^3)$ which is $3$-dimensional over $k$?
 
Yeah. Sort of makes sense, right?
The singularity of the cusp, when seen from the $x$-axis, is of order $3$
Also, what's the general way to take intersections? $I, J$ be two ideals in $A$ and look at $V(I) \cap V(J)$ in $\text{Spec}(A)$, which is $V(I \cup J)$. How does one do this intersection scheme-theoretically? Fibered product of the diagram $\text{Spec}(A) \to \text{Spec}(A) \times \text{Spec}(A) \leftarrow \text{Spec}(A/I) \times \text{Spec}(A/J)$?
The first map being the diagonal inclusion
 
2:33 PM
For closed subschemes $X,Y$ in a scheme $S$, with fixed closed immersions, their intersection is just the fiber product $X\times_ZY$. In the affine case $Z=\text{Spec}(C)$ and $X,Y$ are $\text{Spec}(C/I)$ and $\text{Spec}(C/J)$ respectively. So we are just looking at the fiber product over $\text{Spec}(C/I)\to \text{Spec}(C)\leftarrow \text{Spec}(C/J)$
(where these maps are just Spec of the quotient maps)
General intersections aren't well defined, and there is a whole theory that these notes are building towards
@BalarkaSen How do you define the order of a singularity?
 
Oh yeah true. So in our case it's $\text{Spec}(A/I \otimes_A A/J) = \text{Spec}(A/(I + J))$, and everything checks out.
 
Yep
 
It's also $X \to X \times X \leftarrow Y \times Z$ I think but that was way too complicated
 
Yeah I think you're right, I thought they are probably the same
 
@TedE No idea, but it seems like $x^3 - y^2$ has singularity of order $3$ along the $x$-direction and $2$ along the $y$-direction, right?
That's what it's picking up, probably
 
2:38 PM
Hmm, I don't know what that means unfortunately
Oh
I think I see what you're saying now
You're legit just checking partial derivatives?
>Be me, computing $\mathfrak{m}/\mathfrak{m}^2$
 
Yeah, exactly, order of vanishing of $f_x$ and $f_y$ at $(0, 0)$.
 
Oh wow, that's ultra cool then, if that is how it works
$k[x,y]/(x^3-y^2,x)\cong k[y]/(y^2)$
Damn son
 
Yeah, super weird how the algebra just works out
 
That makes me slightly uncomfortable somehow
$k[x,y]/(x^3-y^2,x+y)\cong k[x]/(x^3-x^2)=k[x]/(x^2(x-1))\cong k[x]/x^2\oplus k$?
 
What's the order of vanishing of the directional derivative $f_{(1, 1)}$? (You did $(1, -1)$ but it's ok)
It's $3x^2 - 2y$, and it's $x$-part $3x^2$ vanishes with order $2$ and $y$-part $2y$ vanishes with order $1$ at $(0, 0)$
That's what you're capturing
 
2:50 PM
I'll be honest, I can't remember how to compute the directional derivative lol
 
Just $\lim_{t \to 0} (f(x + vt, y + wt) - f(x, y))/t$ if you're computing $f_{(v, w)}$.
 
Oh right, that makes sense
@BalarkaSen Well $y=-x$ actually intersects the curve twice, once at a regular point, and once at the singular point
 
Oh remove the (0, 0) part I guess
yeah i see now
 
Wasn't actually my intention when I chose $y=-x$ though
Brb I'll grab coffee
 
@TedE not sure what you mean by general intersections here - but imo these notes are really about developing chow groups (intersecting subvarieties up to rational equivalence) (and to justify intersection theoretic arguments in the past eg conservation of number etc.)
 
2:57 PM
@loch I mean it doesn't make sense to intersect two arbitrary schemes, and moving to a case where intersections should make sense, I don't think it makes sense to intersect two arbitrary subschemes of a given scheme (and get a scheme back)
Of course, I don't know intersection theory right now, hence why I'm reading a first lecture notes :P
 
I don't follow, fibered product always exists in that category of schemes right?
 
you should be careful with what you mean by an 'arbitrary subscheme'
also categorically the fibred product is what you want when you take 'intersections' :p
 
it may not naturally be a subscheme, is what is meant, maybe?
 
I'm not an algebraic geometer lol
All I mean to say is this: The definitions I have seen for 'intersections of schemes' always assumed that these schemes were closed subschemes. The fibre product may exist, but in terms of semantics, I haven't seen this called an intersection
 
in practice i think you usually just talk about open/closed subschemes ; maybe locally closed

i dont think 'arbitrary subscheme' is defined
 
3:08 PM
Also, it's true I should be careful with 'arbitrary subscheme', I've seen this defined as 'open subscheme of a closed subscheme'.
 
then fibred product should agree with your intuition!
 
I guess with arbitrary subscheme defined in that way, we take the fibre product of the open subschemes, fibred over the closed subscheme, and we're fine
Or maybe not, I guess then I have to first permit intersection of open subschemes :P
 
oh that's not too bad - it's what you expect
 
@BalarkaSen So in direction $(a,b)$ we get $3ax^2-2yb$ right? What does this tell me? In particular, in the directions $(1,0)$ and $(0,1)$ I'd expect to see a double and a triple point right?
 
I'm not sure. $k[x, y]/(x^3 - y^2, x - y)$ gets you $k[x]/(x^2) \oplus k$ for example, which tells the line $x - y = 0$ vanishes with order $2$ at $(0, 0)$ and order $1$ at $(1, 1)$.
 
3:16 PM
I'm happy with the algebra part, but I thought you had a directional derivative way to give intuition for it
 
yeah im not sure anymore
 
Sure
@loch Is it clear to you why $x^3-y^2$ should intersect the $x$-axis as a triple point, and the $y$-axis as a doublepoint?
 
If you parametrize the curve using $(t^2, t^3)$ and the line using $(t, t)$, it does tell that the "osculation index" of the curves at $(0, 0)$ is $2$.
 
I don't know what the osculation index is either lol
 
The $0$-th derivative agrees, the first derivative of either is $(0, 0)$ and $(1, 1)$ - parallel. Second derivative is $(2, 0)$ and $(1,1)$ - not parallel anymore
So upto the first two derivatives the curves match
 
3:24 PM
@TedE it's not clear to me what the definition of clear is
 
That's a good point Loch
I guess my question is: Why should the intersection of a smooth line through a singularity of a singular curve yield fat points of different orders
Now you'll ask me what "Why should" means
 
oh no i think that's reasonable
:p
 
Oh okay lol
Also, I think that the $x$ axis is the unique line through the origin that gives a fat point of order 3, since otherwise you always get an order $2$ intersection at the origin, and an order $1$ intersection elsewhere $k[x]/(x^2)\oplus k[x]/(x-a^2)$ for $a\in k$
 
Has to because total intersection multiplicity cannot exceed $3$, and any other line than the x-axis which passes through origin hits the curve somewhere else
Taking away a +1 contribution of intersection multiplicity
This is Bezout of course
 
@TedE your Q makes sense even if your curve is not singular btw - in which case maybe it seems obvious why you'd expect to see such a phenomenon
(of course then it's easy to see geometrically as curves meeting tangentially up to some order)
 
3:35 PM
Why should I geometrically/intuitively think it (the x-axis) intersects three times, rather than two?
 
It is order of contact, like I said, I think. Given two curves $\gamma_1, \gamma_2$, asking what's the maximal $k$ such that $\gamma_1^{(k)}(t) = \gamma_2^{(k)}(t)$
 
Oh wait, that does make sense
 
alternatively / also what intersection multiplicity *should* suggest - is to perturb your line a little bit - you'll see if you move x=0 a little bit, the double point becomes two points

whereas if you move y=0 a little bit (and put on your complex number lens) the triple point becomes three points
 
It goes over, does a little counterclockwise circle passing through the x-axis again, and then goes back above
@BalarkaSen I'll keep that in mind
I guess I can think if it as a degeneration of $x^3+ax^2-y^2$ as $a\to 0$
I guess I'll go onto the second set of notes
 
if $V(I)$ and $V(J)$ are complementary Krull-dimensional affine sets in $\Bbb C[x_1, \cdots, x_n]$, should I expect the intersection multiplicity to be dimension of $\Bbb C[x_1, \cdots, x_n]/(I + J)$? Why's that even a $0$-dimensional algebra over $\Bbb C$?
Is it clear
 
3:46 PM
I don't think that's true
 
I mean I can take $I = J$ lol
Some transversality is required
 
Assuming even dimensional yeah
I think one has to ask for it to be a complete intersection or something, but we'll see that in the next notes I think
 
I can have worse, of course, like three things intersecting on a curve like a twisted cubic
 
dsm
Looks like you guys are in the middle of something, but if you can help me clarify this it would be greatly appreciated. I'm currently getting used to the formality of dual spaces, but I'm not seeing how my text arrives at a dual vector being represented by a matrix product with the vector it's dual to. I'm working with the Minkowski metric, here it is:
Define $\mathcal{B} = \{e_i\}$ as the basis, and $\mathcal{B^*} = \{e^i\}$ as the dual basis, where $e^i(e_j) = \delta_j^i$. A dual vector $\tilde{v}$ can be represented by its components with $\tilde{v} = \tilde{v}_ie^i$, where $\tilde{v}_i = \tilde{v}(e_i)$ (repeated index summation notation). Now, I'm looking at how these components are represented by the vectors $v$ of which they are dual to. So...
$\tilde{v}_\mu = \tilde{v}(e^{\mu}) = (v|e^\mu) = (v^\nu e_\nu|e^\mu) = v^\nu(e_\nu|e^\mu) \equiv v^\nu \eta_{\nu\mu}$
Now, my text states that the above, in matrix form, is
$[\tilde{v}]_{\mathcal{B}^*} = [\eta]_{\mathcal{B}}[v]_{\mathcal{B}}$
How?? Is he doing something perverse and saying $\eta_{\text{column},\text{row}}$? Maybe this is obvious, but I'm not seeing it.
 
I dunno what transverse singular stuff would mean
But even if $V(I)$ and $V(J)$ are smooth complementary dimensional subvarieties of $\Bbb C^n$ which are topologically transverse, does it imply $\Bbb C[x_1, \cdots, x_n]/(I + J)$ is a $0$-dimensional $\Bbb C$-algebra
I think topological transversality forces $I + J$ to be a radical ideal
 
dsm
3:52 PM
$\tilde{v}_\mu = \tilde{v}(e_{\mu}) = (v|e_\mu) = (v^\nu e_\nu|e_\mu) = v^\nu(e_\nu|e_\mu) \equiv v^\nu \eta_{\nu\mu}$
Sorry, messed that chain up, it's
 
@BalarkaSen I don't think so, can you not just intersect two planes in 4-space transversally?
 
two 2-planes, sure. Why's that a counterexample
 
The intersection will have dimension $1$ right?
 
What?
It's 0
 
Maybe my mental picture for transverse is wrong lol
 
3:55 PM
Two 2-planes transversally intersect at a single point
 
Wtf?
Oh woops, I was in 3 space
rofl
Should the ideals be coprime for some reason?
 
Coprime? no way lol take $(x)$ and $(y)$
 
Lol oops
Sorry, I got distracted reading this: workplace.stackexchange.com/questions/149421/…
The hot network questions always get me
 
$I, J$ are coprime iff $V(I)$ and $V(J)$ don't intersect by Nullstellensatz
 
@TedE I know that feeling
 
4:02 PM
@ÍgjøgnumMeg I'm still reading it lol. It's a pretty amusing situation
 
I was reading about the experience of trans people in academia last year
was really interesting
 
I know three trans people in math. They all get mistreated, and quite badly in one of their cases
 
from all the trans math academics i know, it's more depressing than anything
 
Historical publications bear their old name and this can be problematic (both for the trans person themself and for people who don't "understand" their situation)
 
i wonder how it works in the more "conventional" case of women who change their last names after getting married
 
4:04 PM
I shouldn't get too distracted though, or Balarka will abandon me
 
if you take a point in the intersection and compute its tangent space you should expect to see dim 0
which is good enough to tell you that the thing you had was a 0-dimensional algebra (since dim of tangent space >= dim of local ring)
 
True
Good point
 
That's clever
 
@Soham I feel like the conversation would go "Oh I got married so my name is different on some of my old publications" and that's it lol, in the trans case the conversation might be a lot more difficult
 
oh no yeah, i meant the part where they might try to get it updated on the old papers
 
4:06 PM
In general that argument works for singular subvarieties as long as they are stratumwise transverse I suppose
 
but yeah i think that wasn't a very good analogy on my part
 
Ah I see, I missed that lol
 
dsm
nobody likes dual spaces... I see how it is
2
 
@dsm I couldn't quite follow your notation sorry
 
I $\ \$ love $\ \$ dual $\ \$ spaces
 
4:08 PM
more like nobody likes the Einstein summation convention :(
which is a shame
 
nah this ain't gonna work
what a shame
that would've been so funny
 
dsm
I love it, makes things so compact
 
dudes im so sleepy
 
So in the second set of notes, a weil divisor is defined to be an irreducible codimension $1$ variety. I imagine this is already wrong, and it should be a formal sum of such things
Since the first example is given by $(x-1)^2(x^2-2)/(x-3)$ over $\Bbb A^1_{\Bbb C}$ and $\Bbb{A}^1_{\Bbb Q}$
 
id imagine so my man, id imagine so
thats a principal divisor tho
 
4:13 PM
Over $\Bbb CP^1$ yeah
Over $\Bbb A^1_{\Bbb C}$ it should give us a formal sum $2[1]+[\sqrt{2}]+[-\sqrt{2}]-[3]$, but what about over $\Bbb Q$?
 
what do you even call principal over affine schemes
 
anything that looks like div(f)
 
f is regular?
 
rational function!
 
Oh crap, I am tired, my rigour is converging on zero
 
4:16 PM
@loch Makes sense, but then I don't understand TedE's comment about $\Bbb{CP}^1$
 
I should have went to sleep 12 hours ago lol
 
Dual spaces are cool. They pop up a bit in geometry, but I feel like I never truly understood what they're for. Either way, I can't deal with physics notation either.
 
i also don't
 
lol
rip rip
 
@BalarkaSen Ignroe that, it my tired state I travelled form AG to riemann surfaces
 
4:16 PM
:p
 
Okay goodmorning(goodnight) peeps
I'll continue that when I awaken
Thanks for your help @BalarkaSen @loch
 
good morning/night
 
dsm
@Thorgott second chapter of Nadir's Tensor text on dual spaces is quite illuminating, but it's all physics notation so you might not like
 
i look back and all i have been doing for the last 6 months is algebra
horrible
 
I should generally just find the time to do some multilinear algebra eventually tbh
 
dsm
4:55 PM
oh my god. $\eta$ is symmetric. of course. confusion cleared.
 
5:16 PM
@Ultradark ping let's study CA
 
 
1 hour later…
6:44 PM
is anyone here familiar with set theory and stationary sets?
 
What's your question?
 
0
Q: Ordering of stationary subsets of a regular uncountable cardinal is transitive

wilkersmonThis comes from Jech Lemma 8.19 (page 99). If $\kappa$ is a regular uncountable cardinal, $A, B \subset \kappa$ are stationary subsets, $A<B \ \ \iff \ A \cap \alpha \ \text{ is stationary for almost all } \alpha \in B \iff \exists \text{ closed unbounded }C: \forall \alpha , \alpha \in C\cap ...

 
Is $\alpha\cap B$ stationary or nonstationary for $\alpha\in C\cap C_{BC}$?
 
typo, edited, thanks
stationary
 
7:51 PM
figured it out and posted the answer there, thanks
 
8:48 PM
@shi
 
okay I'm ready
 
@Ultradark i'm in a room
 
where?
 
9:48 PM
Hey! How do we know that a bilinear form is positive definite (without knowing the eigenvalues and without calculation)? and if we only know that the constant elements of the matrix (that represents the bilinear form) look like this: $a_ij*a_uv$.
 
10:01 PM
What are the constant elements of a matrix?
 
An example of what you have in mind may help.
 
 
1 hour later…
11:28 PM
making curves from light
all you need is: sunlight going through the blinds, and a plastic food container
 
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