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12:09 AM
If I take the cross product between the angular rotation of earth and a train travelling north in the northern hemisphere the result is $|\omega||v|\sin 90- \lambda$ where lambda is the latitude right?
 
 
3 hours later…
3:18 AM
Alright, I have an attempt at a proof that every element of a finite group has a finite order. I'll copy and paste it in here. If anyone has a moment could they tell me if there are any holes in the argument?
Let us first establish a base case of a group with only a single element. Since this group must have an identity element, it must be this single element, and so every element in this group has finite order. Now, assume that every finite group with up to $n$ elements has been shown to only have elements of finite order and add a single new element $a$ to such a group.
We know that $a$ must have an inverse, so either we assign it to be it's own inverse, in which case it automatically has finite order, or we rearrange relations in the group such that $a$ has an inverse which is not itself. Let us assume, for ease of argument, that the latter situation is possible, and consider $a^2$. If $a^2\neq a$, then we know that $a^2$ is an element with finite order, and so $a$ also has finite order. So, allow that $a^2=a$.
Then we have that, for any element $h=ah_{0}=h_{1}a$ in the group, $h=ah=ha$, and so $a$ must be the identity, which we know is unique and already defined, and so $a^2$ cannot equal $a$, and every element of this group has finite order.
 
I'm skeptical that induction makes sense for this kind of argument. It's not obvious to me how, say, $S_3$ can be thought of as $\Bbb Z/5\Bbb Z$ with an element adjoined.
 
I'm not familiar with the notation $\Bbb {Z}/5\Bbb {Z}$. I know $S_3$ is the symmetric group of three elements, right?
 
Indeed. $\Bbb Z/5\Bbb Z$ is the integers mod 5---$\{0,1,2,3,4\}$ with addition modulo 5.
My point is that Z/5Z is the only group of order 5 (up to isomorphism), and $S_3$ is a group of order 6, but the relations change so much that there's not really any correspondence between the elements of one and the elements of the other.
 
Ah, we've been denoting that as $\Bbb {Z}_5$.
 
The notation I'm using is coming from quotient groups, which surely you'll encounter soon if you haven't already
At any rate, I'm not totally sure whether this proof is correct, but my instinct is that the induction isn't quite valid.
 
3:29 AM
@Rithaniel don't use that notation it's for the p-adics
 
I'd argue that, since the relations are arbitrary to the fact that elements must have finite order, we can rearrange the relation until it's unrecognizable and the argument would hold, because $a^2$ has to go somewhere. (Also, making note that that is for p-adics.)
Though, if induction doesn't hold, what would be a more suitable approach?
 
Right, but my point is that you don't know whether the elements other than $a$ have finite order anymore, because they don't exist in the same group anymore. Order is entirely relative to the overlying group.
I'd try a proof by contradiction.
Although, I think there is a way to do this by strong induction, reasoning on subgroups.
 
So, start off by perhaps assuming that for every element $a$, $a^{-1}\neq a$, and then give the logical statement that if $a^n= a^{-m}$ for any $m$ or $n$, then $a$ has finite order?
(I might be abusing notation there)
 
Is anyone in this room simply explain the difference between a conditional probability, and a stochastic kernel?
If not, then I'll just ask it as an SE question.
 
Be careful about "for every".
Just assume you have an element of infinite order in a finite group. What goes wrong? What you just stated is a key point, but not the whole story.
 
3:41 AM
Well, I've already convinced myself that $a^2=a\implies a=1$, and so $a^2\neq a$, and now I'm thinking about the path that the $a$ traces out in the group as you increase the exponent. If it has infinite order it has to trace out a loop which never encounters $1$.
 
Can you justify that symbolically?
In other words, every one of $\{1,a,a^{-1},a^2,a^{-2},\dots\}$ is distinct if $a$ has infinite order. Why?
 
Well, we only have finite elements in the group. By closure, $a^n$ has to be in the group for every $n\in\Bbb{N}$. So, $a^n=a$ for some $n$. (Is this correct?)
In which case $a^{n-1}=1$.
Okay, I think I see.
 
$a^n$ doesn't have to equal $a$ ever, but you're right---if we're assuming we're in a finite group, then the set I stated is a subgroup, and so must be finite.
And that would require that $a^n = a^m$ for some integers $n,m$.
 
$\lim_{n\to \infty}a^n =1 \implies a^{-1}\lim_{n\to \infty}a^n =a^{-1} \implies \lim_{n\to \infty}a^{n-1}=a^{-1}$. But $\lim_{n\to \infty}a^{n-1}=1$ hence $a^{-1}=1$ contradiction
 
:|
 
3:50 AM
...actually I am not sure if I have made any illegal step...
 
I don't believe $a^{-1}\lim_{n\rightarrow\infty}a^n=\lim_{n\rightarrow\infty}a^{n-1}$
 
It's not really applicable to the general group case because limits of sequences don't have a ready definition in an abstract group
 
Ah...
 
Also, danke for the help, Fargle.
 
No problem
 
 
1 hour later…
5:21 AM
I'm having a little bit of confusion. So, I'm looking at the statement that "any group generated by two elements of order two is dihedral," which I'm fine with, but that should only allow for one such group, correct? "The dihedral group for the line segment," in a sense.
Oh, I think I see what I'm missing. If $a^2=h^2=1$, then we don't necessarily know that $(ah)^2=1$. All we know is that the order of $ah$ is finite.
 
It's also a way of getting around the fact that there's not "really" only one of a group. You can label the elements or operations in any way that you like, and those different labelings are taken to be different sets.
As an example, there are lots of infinite cyclic groups (Z, 2Z, 3Z, ...).
But there's only one infinite cyclic group up to isomorphism---all the groups I just listed are "the same" in a well-defined sense.
So what this is saying is that "any group generated by two elements of order 2 must specifically be of this form", and in this case that gives enough info to say "there's only one group generated by two elements of order 2: namely, the one of this form".
 
Having a lot of trouble with this problem, can anyone suggest the way forward ?
 
And yeah---you don't a priori know stuff about $(ah)^2$---you in fact don't even know that it has finite order if the group is nonabelian.
 
Having a lot of trouble with this problem, can anyone suggest the way forward ?
What are the values of $\lambda_c$ and $\beta_c$ ? — Jean Marie 7 hours ago
 
You move out a layer in abstraction and you can see that the different structures are just one and the same. I think I'm going to enjoy studying isomorphisms when we get to that point in the semester.
 
5:36 AM
How to prove that set of of all bijective isometries of hermitian space form unitary group
 
The thing that tells you that $(ah)^2 = 1$ is the combination of the facts that:
- $a$ and $h$ generate the group
- $a^2 = h^2 = 1$. If both these things were not true you could not necessarily conclude the above.
 
Hmmm, so $(ah)^2=1$ for sure? Okay, then I don't immediately see the way to arrive at that conclusion. Do we know that a group generated by elements $a,h$ with $a^2=h^2=1$ is necessarily abelian?
(Cause If I have that, then it's a cake walk)
 
Wait hmm. I might be wrong here
 
Yeah, I was going to assume that $ah$ corresponds to a rotation, and that $a$ corresponds to a reflection.
(but that doesn't really work, actually)
 
Oh, no, I've misread stuff a bit here.
 
5:43 AM
(because then $aah=h$ and so $h$ would be a rotation too.)
 
What they're saying is that it'll be some dihedral group---not necessarily $D_4$.
 
Indeed, which I suspected, but wasn't seeing.
 
Take a polygon (say, a square) and mark its corners different colors. Then flip vertically, and then flip diagonally. What transformation results?
 
Rotation by a degree equal to the degree between the axises of the two reflections?
Or perhaps, twice that degree.
Okay, so the generating elements are two reflections, alright.
 
Yeah. Now work backwards from this reasoning and see why two order 2 elements always give another generating set whose relations are the dihedral ones.
I guess finiteness of the group in question is being assumed?
 
5:52 AM
Yes, it is. I do intend to use that.
In fact it's a three part question, and the first part is asking "Assuming that the order of $G$ is finite, what can you say about the order of the element $xy\in G$?"
Which kind of confuses me because there was already an exercise which said "Let $G$ be a finite group. Show that any element of $G$ has finite order," and I don't just want to say "refer to the above work."
 
6:06 AM
Can you post the whole question?
 
Sure:The goal of this problem is to show that any finite group generated by two elements of order two is dihedral (with $\mathbb{Z}_2\times\mathbb{Z}_2$ being considered a "degenerate" dihedral group). Suppose that $G$ is generated by the elements $x,y\in G$, both of order $2$.
a) (3 pt) Assuming that the order of $G$ is finite, what can you say about the order of the element $xy\in G$?
b) (3 pt) Show that the group generated by $x$ and $y$ is the same as the group generated by $xy$ and $y$
c) (3 pt) Show that the group generated by $x$ and $y$ is dihedral.
 
I think "refer to the above work" is exactly what you want here.
For part (a), that is.
 
Alright, perfect.
 
 
1 hour later…
7:33 AM
@LeakyNun familiar with involution part?
 
7:52 AM
0
Q: About involution

ninja hatori I understand that how to convert left module to right module by involution.But what is meaning of we always interpret dual module M* as right module in this sense? Also what is meaning of scalar multiplication is twisted by involution?

 
8:14 AM
how to prove (M+N)*=M*+N* in above question?
 
 
1 hour later…
9:40 AM
how to show ip is isomorphisam
 
10:38 AM
@AlessandroCodenotti what's the nicest proof of the existence and uniqueness of Haar measure?
 
I don't know, I've never really thought about Haar measures
Also if $G$ is compact you get uniqueness by normalizing and asking $\mu(G)=1$, but is it unique for non compact locally compact groups?
 
@AlessandroCodenotti it is unique up to a constant
 
10:53 AM
Makes sense
 
 
2 hours later…
1:00 PM
 
Truncated octahedrons are an awesome 3D tiling.
 
 
1 hour later…
user131753
2:23 PM
1
Q: Two questions regarding the convention concerning concrete categories

user 170039 Definition of Concrete Categories Let $\mathbf{X}$ be a category. A concrete category over $\mathbf{X}$ is a pair $(\mathbf{A}, U)$, where $\mathbf{A}$ is a category and $U : \mathbf{A} \to \mathbf{X}$ is a faithful functor. Sometimes $U$ is called the forgetful (or underlying) functor ...

 
How do you say a set of strings is computationally universal / equivalent in complexity to the halting problem?
Is it being $\Delta^0_1$ in the arithmetic hierarchy?
Nvm, it's just RE-complete.
 
 
2 hours later…
nCm
4:21 PM
Is that two $\textrm{T-invariant}$ subspaces $\implies$ they're independent subspaces?
 
@LeakyNun I think the standard proof is through the Kakutani fixed point theorem, which one probably takes as a black box.
I guess that statement is about compact sets so can only get you the result for compact groups that way
 
4:39 PM
oh
 
The proof of Kakutani's fixed point theorem is actually not that terrible if I remember correctly
 
5:01 PM
@AlessandroCodenotti Did you think about that path-connectedness problem?
 
5:15 PM
Not really, sorry, exams are getting close
 
5:29 PM
Neat gif
(From what I can tell, gyroid infill doesn't have any clear advantages against other types of infill, but it doesn't have any disadvantages either and it looks cool)
 
@AlessandroCodenotti No need to be sorry :p
 
5:44 PM
@AkivaWeinberger What software is he using ?
 
5:58 PM
I think this is the second time I know of where a Jewish Star shows up unexpectedly in math
(This is a polygonal approximation of the gyroid)
Another one, this time made of triangles, can be viewed (and rotated!) here: 3dviewer.net/#https://raw.githubusercontent.com/Dan-Piker/…
 
6:22 PM
Question: If $p : E \to B$ is a covering map and $B$ is locally compact, does it follow that $E$ is locally compact? I know it follows if we further assume that every compact set of $B$ has a open set containing it that is evenly covered by $p$. Is it possible to drop this assumption?
 
6:40 PM
Interesting. I believe if $B$ is locally compact AND Hausdorff, then $E$ must also be locally compact Hausdorff. Are we able to do away with the Hausdorff assumption?
 
Would anyone here be able to help with regards to ensemble averaging vs time averaging, and the impact of interpolation on this?
 
7:13 PM
What is the difference between substituting and changing variables suggested by the Wikipedia quote, "Change of variables is an operation that is related to substitution. However these are different operations, as can be seen when considering differentiation (chain rule) or integration (integration by substitution)"?
 
7:28 PM
Suppose $z_n$ is a sequence of complex numbers that converge to $A$. How can we show that $$\lim_{n \to \infty} \frac{z_1 + ... + z_n}{n} = A$$?
 
Go back to the definition and fix an epsilon
 
Ya, I did.... hmm
i'll think about it
 
7:56 PM
How can i prove that no two edges in a Farey graph intersect?
 
What's a Farey graph ?
 
@user112495 Are you asking about the difference between ensemble and time averaging?
 
As above, I have tried to bound the term: $|\frac{z_1 + ... + z_n}{n} - A| \leq \frac{1}{n}|z_1 + ... + z_n - A|$ @Astyx, any hints?
im unsure if there should be a plus/minus trick or perhaps use the fact that the sequence $z_n$ is bounded, since it's convergent
 
That's not right
You can't factor the $1\over n$ like that
 
@Astyx graph given here : en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farey_sequence
 
8:06 PM
Is that your graph?
 
yes @user76284
 
Two edges intersect if they share a common vertex?
 
@Astyx I meant to have $An$ where $A$ is
 
Ok
Then regroup $z_i$ and $A$
So that you have the sum of $z_i-A$ then work from there
 
ok, thanks @Astyx
 
8:16 PM
This only reduces the problems to $z_i$ being positive reals going to 0
 
Hmm, how so
 
@NicholasRoberts Use the triangular inequality
 
salut @Astyx
 
Salut
 
En anglais c'est "the triangle inequality" :P
 
Comment vas-tu ?
 
8:45 PM
Hi @Ted @Astyx
 
ça va bien, merci ... ça fait très longtemps depuis qu'on se parle :P
hi demonic @Alessandro
 
Longtemps?
 
@Alessandro? :)
 
What does that mean?
 
long time
 
8:47 PM
Ohhh, derp
I should have been able to guess that too
 
Lange Zeit ... wie sagt man das?
 
Keine Ahnung
 
Wow, @Mathein really has disappeared.
 
He was there a couple of days ago
He probably has exams very soon too
 
hlo folk
 
8:50 PM
Hi @ÉricoMeloSilva
 
hi @Eric
I'm not prepared to discuss Portuguese food yet, so we have to talk math.
 
how goes things
im doing a pset for my gr class atm :P
 
Oh, you're taking GR? That's sorta math.
 
Ouch
 
hi @MikeM
 
8:51 PM
@TedShifrin the physical science requirement rears its head
 
Didn't you take standard physics or chemistry earlier on?
 
i took the intro honors physics or w.e. yeah
math major requires that + more stuff in the physical sciences division and i decided to spend that doing physics (i took a cs class too)
 
Oh, I see ... major electives.
I don't exactly miss my days of advising 60 students every semester.
 
indeed, this is the last thing before im done-zo w my degree-zo
and then off to god knows where
 
In Europe we're just required to do maths if we study maths
 
8:54 PM
@AlessandroCodenotti i think i’d be sad w this
i like a lot of things that aren’t math
 
ME too.
I did plenty of math, but I didn't want to be a grad student when I was 18-21.
 
I don't know, I have interests outside of math too, but I'm fine with focussing on a single subject in uni
 
I couldn't have taken all the literature and done a French major along with math in the European system.
 
I'll probably end up taking 30 credits just between set theory and logic next semester... I signed up for the graduate set theory seminar just earlier today :P
 
@TedShifrin same but w dead languages and latin american history/lit
 
8:57 PM
I also took 5 physics and chemistry courses plus 5 semesters of German and 2 semesters of Russian plus American literature plus ...
I should have taken history, but history was ruined for me in high school. I still regret not doing it in college.
 
I don't know, I feel like I don't even have time to take all the math courses I'd like to take
 
clearly the fewer math classes we take here has not stopped us from producing a lot of good mathematicians
 
I'm just stating my personal opinion, I'm not arguing about or against the results produced by either system
 
I loved taking all the non-math stuff, and one reason some people get so depressed in grad school is that they're doing nothing but math.
Eric and I turn to cooking for solace :P
 
im not really arguing a point other than that the focusing vs not focusing idt produces much of an advantage one over the other
 
9:02 PM
That's a fair point, I'd rather not say how many hours of math per day I'm doing on average :P
 
Some of us have been there ....
mumbles Chern classes and divisors in Eric's direction :P
 
@TedShifrin if only i weren’t so busy all the time :/
 
I know :)
 
I don't know about Chern's classes but I know he has nice glasses.
@AlessandroCodenotti I think there are quite a number of physics courses too in a math degree in UK, but maybe we shouldn't count UK as part of Europe.
@TedShifrin I prefer watching movies for solace.
 
9:19 PM
howdy @Jasper
 
Howdy @TedShifrin. The ping sound is nice.
 
@Ted!
 
hi @Leaky
 
do we like Haar measure?
 
I only think about it in terms of Lie groups and differential forms.
 
9:30 PM
how about Haar measure of an exact sequence?
 
That makes no sense to me.
 
i.e. if 0->A->B->C->0 is exact and you have da and dc then you have a unique db such that blah blah blah
 
Are you asking how you induce a measure on $G/H$ when $H$ is normal and you have compatible measures on $G$ and $H$? This is Fubini's Theorem/integration over the fiber.
 
do you also get for free that it is left-invariant?
 
Sure.
 
9:32 PM
wonderful
 
You do the same trick when showing that extensions of amenable groups are amenable
 
I'm not amenable to that.
 
groans
Today I saw a second cool application of the fact that modules are the colimit of their f.g. submodules, I'm starting to appreciate some category theory when used sparingly and appropriately
 
@AlessandroCodenotti you don't need category theory for "every module is a direct limit of their f.g. submodules"
 
9:55 PM
Sure but presumably he used a universal property
 
There was also a bit of tensor-hom adjunction going on
We were showing that Q is a flat Z-module (but not a projective one)
 
@AlessandroCodenotti that follows from Q being injective?
oh never mind it doesn't
 
hi @Manolis
 
10:10 PM
Suppose the gaussian curvature is always positive that means that the eigenvalues of the shape operator are of the same sign which means the min max of the second fundamental form are of the same sign which means that the shape operator which is the derivative of the gauss map N is always positive or negative . How i am supposed to continue in order to prove that the sueface is orientable . What i nees to prove is the det of the deriavte of composition of patches is positive
 
This is a surface in $\Bbb R^3$?
 
In R^3 yes
Ohh you are ted excellent pdf on diff geometry
 
I don't know how much you know. If $K>0$ everywhere, then the surface is convex, and so it lies on one side of each tangent plane. That gives you an orientation (make the normal point outward).
LOL, yup, guilty.
 
Yes i know that is it enough; to just write what you said
 
If you know about differential forms, you get a nowhere zero $2$-form by taking $K\,dA$, so that implies orientability.
 
10:14 PM
I wantes to prove that given a collection of parametrizations i can make the determinant of the derivative of the composiotion of the patches positive
 
I guess that if you choose coordinate patches where the principal curvatures are always positive, you can also deduce that the coordinate change will have positive determinant.
 
@Ted how hard is "every compact manifold embedded in R^3 is orientable"?
 
Jordan-Brouwer separation for smooth
Or else some very nontrivial algebraic topology.
 
On my list of things to read (at some indeterminate point in the future): http://www.ams.org/notices/200906/rtx090600713p.pdf
"On the Concept of Genus in Topology and Complex Analysis"
 
If the principal curvatures are positive why the coordinate change will have positive determinant
 
10:16 PM
For now: sleep
Night
 
That's for you to figure out, @Manolis :P
Night, DogAteMy.
 
Thats what im essentially asking haha
 
Do you know differential forms, @Manolis?
 
Ok ok ill think of it
Nope
 
That's the fastest way for me to answer that, using stuff in section 3 of chapter 3 of my notes.
 
10:17 PM
@AkivaWeinberger I was about to say "do you know you can obtain Euler characteristic by integrating curvature"
 
Considering your pdf assume i e read the first part
 
@LeakyNun Isn't that just Gauss–Bonnet
 
Leaky is showing off, DogAteMy.
 
I have been out-off-shown
 
Does any finitely generated infinite group contain $\mathbb{Z}$ (i.e. the cyclic group of infinite order) as a subgroup?
 
10:19 PM
@Manolis: I guess the point is that the unit normals glue compatibly when you keep the sign consistent for the principal curvatures, and so the fundamental cross products being in the same direction will tell you that $(u,v)\mapsto (u',v')$ has positive determinant. You have to do that calculation.
 
@LeakyNun Gauss–Bonnet is also the continuous version of Descartes' theorem
 
@user76284 no
 
@user76284 No. Your question may be stated in different language as "Is there an infinite, finitely generated, torsion group?"
 
So look at how the cross products are related.
 
10:20 PM
 
@user76284 there are Tarski monsters
 
Beat u
 
Interesting, thanks
 
Everyone is soooo competitive in here.
 
while I silently sniped everyone
 
10:24 PM
Yes but the principal curvatures are info about the derivative of N not N which is about those cross products
 
@Ted Well I'm the most competitive, so I win that too.
 
Tautologically.
@Manolis: Yes, but the sign of the principal curvatures is determined by the sign of $N$. So getting $N$ pointing in the same direction is equivalent ... and I'm saying that's equivalent to your chart-overlap jacobian.
You need to write out the chain rule for $\partial\vec x/\partial u'$, etc., in terms of $\partial\vec x/\partial u$ and $\partial\vec x/\partial v$.
Differential forms are so much nicer. Sigh.
 
@TedShifrin :)
 
my differential topology lecturer writes $dx_1$ instead of $dx^1$
 
Oh, I thought that was gonna be a tautological smile.
When I teach taught differential topology I do did too, @Leaky. It's only in graduate differential geometry that I use used upper indices.
Old habits die hard.
 
10:32 PM
Upper indices irritate and confuse me.
I only use them if a subscript is overloaded.
 
hi @CaptainAmerica16
I'll use upper indices all the time every time
 
Well, in complex geometry, you have both upper/lower and barred indices. It really helps keep you from making errors, I learned.
In hermitian geometry you really want to write $h_{\alpha\bar\beta}$, etc.
 
Today at lunch, I dropped my food all over the floor. I tried to clean up what I could before the janitor saw me. I was so uncomfortable ;-;
 
hi @CaptainAmerica
I used to be pretty klutzy ... then again, in my old age, I am again
 
10:35 PM
@LeakyNun Perfect, because you are irritating and confusing. :D
 
indeed :P
 
@TedShifrin Sometimes it feels like I'm tripping over nothing.
 
maybe over your own anxiety
 
anxiety + feet growing
 
When I was at a Mezcaleria near a conference my advisor was very worried I would knock some things down and cause trouble.
 
10:37 PM
@MikeMiller u sure showed him
 
I grew two shoe sizes in like 3 months.
 
Just wait until the size of your existential dread grows too
 
MikeM, you're being so encouraging.
 
$\int f(x) \ X^\ast\mathrm dt = \int f(x(t)) \ \mathrm dt$
 
@MikeMiller into the abyss let's go boys
 
10:38 PM
@MikeMiller I fear it's already begun.
 
@TedShifrin Was that my job?
 
Just observing, Mike.
@Leaky: Your notation is inconsistent.
 
On the bright side, my CS teacher gave me a bunch of his old math books.
 
Just to distract you even further!
 
10:41 PM
@TedShifrin $\int f(x) \ x^\ast\mathrm dt = \int f(x(t)) \ \mathrm dt$?
 
I've changed. I'm keeping distractions to a minimum.
 
Looks like garbage to me, @Leaky. You're talking change of variables?
 
I'm pushforwarding measure
 
Push-forward has lower star. Pullback has upper star.
I've told you that before.
 
how do I remember that?
 
10:42 PM
It's functorial, silly.
 
I don't understand?
 
But the variables still need to make sense and yours don't. Define your spaces and mapping, please.
 
Ok i got this ted
 
if you push something it falls down, if you pull something you're picking it up
4
 
ive only seen anyone reverse the push down pull up convention once and people complained when it happened
 
10:43 PM
duhhhh
 
so u just remember
 
LOL @ÍgjøgnumMeg
 
I cant post a picture
 
Pullback looks like $f^{-1}$ so it has an upper star
Until you get to AG where $f^{-1}$ is pullback of sheaves and $f^\ast$ is pullback of $\mathcal O_x$-modules since you can't just pull them back as sheaves
 
Hey everyone!
 
10:45 PM
But in the smooth world we always use $f^*E$ for pullback bundles.
 
@TedShifrin $F:X \to Y$, $g : Y \to \Bbb R$, $\int g(y) \ F_\ast \mathrm dx = \int g(f(x)) \ \mathrm dx$ is this right?
 
The next exercise I want to do in Ch.2 is try to prove that $\Bbb R$ is inductive. I haven't really thought about it yet though. @Ted
 
@Alessandro: There's also upper- and lower-shrief $f^!$ and $f_!$.
 
what does inductive mean?
 
@Perturbative Hey
 
10:45 PM
@Captain Get the h*** to calculus stuff.
 
@TedShifrin I don't know about those
 
@TedShifrin Hm...not the response I was expecting.
 
I've said it numerous times.
 
Fine, I shall attempt the proof. If I don't get it by tomorrow, I'll move to ch. 3
I'll move on even if I do get it, but you know.
 
@Leaky: Yes, except you mixed $F$ and $f$. It should be the companion of the pullback formula (usual change of variables) $\int_X f^*(g\,dy) = \int_Y g\,dy$.
Of course, that only works with the same dimension. The pushforward allows you to collapse dimensions.
@CaptainAmerica: That doesn't seem a very interesting exercise.
 
10:49 PM
:P
Fine, I'll google the proof. I'm kind of interested.
 
What's to worry about?
 
I found how the sign of N connects with th determinant of the derivative of the patches
 
Am I correct in saying that $S^n$ with cell structure consisting of one $0$-cell and one $n$-cell can't be built up inductively (like start off with a discrete set $X^0$ attach some $1$-cells to get $X^1$ attach some $2$-cells to $X^1$ and get $X^2$ and so on)? Because in this case the $n-1$ skeleton of $S^n$ is just an empty set
 
Good, @Manolis. It's just sorta messy determinant stuff.
 
I need to connect the sign of N with the sign of curvature
 
10:50 PM
@Perturb: Of course, yes.
But you can do a different cell structure inductively.
@Manolis: Not Gaussian curvature — that's independent.
 
@TedShifrin If you're referring to me...idk.
 
What's the definition of an inductive set, @CaptainAmerica?
@Manolis: If you're talking about principal curvatures, then you should see immediately that the sign changes if you change $N$ to $-N$.
 
I know that the gaussian curvature is positive hence the two principal curvatures are of the same sign
 
A set, A, is inductive if: 1 is in A; k+1 is in A whenever k is in A
 
Thanks @Ted I'm sure I have to use the other definition of a CW complex (as a Hausdorff space together with a cell decomposition that satisfies blah blah blah) to recognize $S^n$ as a CW complex in that case
 
10:53 PM
You just gave a CW structure, @Perturb .
If you're being mandated to do an inductive one, then, yes, you need a different structure.
So isn't it trivially obvious that $1\in\Bbb R$ and $x\in\Bbb R \implies x+1\in\Bbb R$? @CaptainAmerica
I mean, we don't actually have a "definition" of $\Bbb R$ in Spivak. But you have the list of algebraic properties ....
And you will learn a very important one in Chapters 7 and 8.
 
@TedShifrin Yeah, ok. I guess it is pretty obvi.
 
Thabks Ted
 
sure @Manolis
 
I'm on Chapter 3!!!
 
@Ted No I was just asking to see if this was an instance when you had to use one definition instead of the other :)
 
10:56 PM
I'm still confuzled, Perturb.
 
@Perturbative can't you just "do nothing" at the $i^{th}$ step for $0 < i < n$?
 
got question, we're in $\mathbb{R}^2$, if $V,W$ vectors are lineary independent, then is it true that $\det(F(V),F(W))=\det (m(F) \cdot (V \ W))$?
where $m(F)$ is matrix of transformation $F$ and $(V \ W)$ is 2x2 matrix with columns $V$ and $W$
 
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