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7:05 PM
Hi DogAteMy
 
Just thought this was interesting
I've shared this before but I just found it again
 
Linkages make for interesting manifold structures ...
 
There was a whole area of research on linkages that make straight lines, and they're all pretty complicated
and then there's that one^
 
Even some of the classic things that carpenters use to make ellipses are fascinating.
 
In contrast
 
7:08 PM
What on earth is going on
 
It's unearthly, @Fargle.
 
@TedShifrin Hm, how? Not just the loop-around-two-pins thing?
 
Nope, DogAteMy. Cross-bars and everything.
 
Interesting
 
Hey, I won't have anyone disparaging Archimedes' trammel.
 
7:09 PM
Apparently if you want to make a flat surface, you have to run three surfaces together
 
One of my old family friends was a carpenter and had one of 'em. I had to figure it out and explain it to him. Plus I had to convince him that you actually got an ellipse by slicing a cone appropriately; he understood it as a slice of a cylinder.
 
I mean, you'd expect if you run two surfaces together they'd grind each other flat, but one could end up convex and the other concave
so you take three surfaces and grind them against each other in pairs
@TedShifrin Dandelin!
 
That wouldn't have helped him ...
 
(Though a cylinder does give an ellipse)
 
But he went out to his workshop, milled a wooden cone, sliced it, and said "Son of a bitch" for a half hour nonstop :P
 
7:11 PM
My grandfather made a few over time, but he called it a "do-nothing", or one of the grandkids' names as a joke.
 
In surprise at the math or in frustration at the wood for being hard to slice @TedShifrin
 
The former.
He was one of my favorite people ever.
I'll see if I can find that crossbar thingy.
 
I mean, yeah, it is nonobvious. I think there was an early Renaissance writer on perspective who got it wrong
who thought that if you draw a circle as viewed from an angle it should be egg-shaped
 
Well, gee, all conics are projectively equivalent :P
It says so in my books. :P
 
Ah, that's what the 16th century artist was missing
(plus or minus some centuries)
Oh, wait, are you talking about Archimedes' trammel?
For the ellipse drawing thingy
 
7:15 PM
Fargle mentioned that. Maybe that's it, actually.
And they attach a blade at the far end.
 
I just found that, yeah.
 
Yeah I made a demo of that not too long ago
 
It took me a few minutes to figure out why it works.
 
Press play on the $\phi$
 
7:17 PM
But that was 40 years ago.
 
It's basically a proof without words if you stare at it long enough
 
I think I just thought about it parametrically, but now I don't berember.
 
@TedShifrin hola
 
Strange language in which to address me, Liad.
 
One of the points is always the other one stretched $(a+b)/b$ vertically, or something like that
in the Desmos thing
@TedShifrin Bonjour
 
7:20 PM
Moins étrange, le français.
 
@TedShifrin salut
 
LOL
 
@TedShifrin Ciao?
what is the code for tensor product here?
 
\otimes?
 
$\otimes$
yes. thanks!
 
7:22 PM
@AkivaWeinberger That's related to the debate I often have with students about how the usual stretched parametrization has nothing to do with polar coordinates.
 
Hm, I actually have no idea what the ellipse is in polar coordinates
Depends on if the pole is at the center or a focus, I guess
 
Ah, that's in an exercise in my book — you need it to prove Kepler's laws.
 
Test: $\oplus$ $\ominus$ $\otimes$ $\odiv$
 
Origin at focus, yes.
 
Makes sense
 
7:24 PM
You get all conic sections ... with the eccentricity as a parameter.
 
Take $\Bbb C^3$ with the euclidean norm. and $Y = \{ x_1=2x_2\}$. i have a functional on $Y$ defined by $\phi(x) = x_1-x_2$. i want to extend it to the whole space and preserve its norm , any suggestions how to do that?
 
If there were an inverse linear gravity law, orbits would still be elliptical but the sun would be at the center rather than the focus
Fun fact
 
(its norm is $1/\sqrt{5}$ )
 
Think about it in two dimensions, @Liad. Presumably you use the plane $x_1-x_2=0$ as a complement to $Y$.
Think of filling up the plane with parallel translates of it along $Y$.
 
$-2x_2$
do you want me to think of explicit way to extend $\phi$ ? @TedShifrin
 
7:30 PM
Huh?
I meant what I said. Instead of an orthogonal complement, you want a complement based on $\phi=0$.
Hmm, why isn't @CaptainAmerica in school?
 
It's after 2
I'm free
 
Wow, that's an early end of school day.
hi, demonic @Alessandro
 
What time did school end for you in high school?
last class ends at 2:15
 
I can't remember that far back, but I suspect 3-ish without clubs, etc.
The high school I helped out with here a few years ago ran until 3, I think.
 
oof
That's how it was when I was in elementary school. Didn't home until 4 sometimes because I took the bus back then
 
7:36 PM
@CaptainAmerica16 Holy shit
Mine ended 4:45
 
What the heck
 
Did you guys have extracurricular stuff during the main part of the day, DogAteMy?
 
I've been an integral master this week.
 
@CaptainAmerica16 is $\frac{-1+\sqrt{-3}}2$ integral over $\Bbb Z$?
 
7:39 PM
:P
I've been getting questions like this:
How to do the integral sign?
 
Do you want a nice set theory exercise? @Leaky
 
sure
 
integral sign $cos(3x+4)dx$
 
Are you familiar with Fodor's lemma?
 
@CaptainAmerica16 \int
 
7:47 PM
Thank you
 
@AlessandroCodenotti not really
 
$\int \cos(3x+4)dx$
fancy
 
@CaptainAmerica16 Also, when writing trig functions you should write \cos \sin etc.
 
@AlessandroCodenotti I think that's way too much set theory for me :P
@CaptainAmerica16 \int \cos(3x+4) \ \mathrm dx $\int \cos(3x+4) \ \mathrm dx$
@ÍgjøgnumMeg how do you type it?
 
why the separate things or cos and dx
 
7:48 PM
@Leaky $\int \cos(3x+4) dx$
 
:c
 
lol
at least it's not $\int \mathrm{d}x \cos(3x +4)$
 
Anyone here have an interest in music theory?
 
now you write $\mathrm dx$ correctly :P
 
I don't ever bother
@CaptainAmerica16 I really do, but I've never gotten around to learning it
 
7:52 PM
@ÍgjøgnumMeg I was just thinking about it because someone told me that math and music theory have a strong correlation. I was playing the drums last night and made some weird offbeats, but then I started wondering what any of that could have to do with math.
 
I'm back
Nah I think the extra two hours were 'cause I went to a Jewish school so I learned Tanakh (Bible) and Talmud and Hebrew and stuff like that
so those were extra classes
Also, morning prayers were 8am-9am
@CaptainAmerica16
@CaptainAmerica16 Yeah, music theory is neat
but it's not really math, it's more like humanities with some math in it
'cause all these patterns are mathematical, but different cultures and different genres will disagree about what patterns sound good and what don't
or what patterns evoke what feelings
There is some universal stuff that's based in the physics of sound waves but it's not a whole lot
 
@CaptainAmerica16 consonance and dissonance (relative to western music) is predictable based on ratios of intervals
or something cool like that
 
That is cool. I'm interested in learning about it now
I've been trying to compose music and it's hard to get the right feeling I want out of stuff.
 
Music theory is more descriptive than prescriptive. I mean, if you want to play a billion notes at once and have it sound good, music theory helps tell you what notes to play, 'cause it's very hard to intuit that otherwise. But usually it's just trying to describe what people are already doing.
 
@AkivaWeinberger I just realized, I go to a charter school. That probably has something to do with it as well.
 
8:00 PM
End disclaimer. Also, note that this is my experience, people can disagree on parts of this
(End disclaimer to the disclaimer)
 
@Akiva no that's pretty accurate, music theory will tell you what kind of sound certain chords/scales/modes will give you but if you just smash stuff together it will sound robotic
so it's not really a creative subject
 
@ÍgjøgnumMeg No, it is, it's music, it's an art
 
the theory isn't the music, it's the descriptive language created to describe the music
you literally said it yourself
 
@CaptainAmerica16 I massively recommend the YouTube channel 8-Bit Music Theory
Check it out
Just do it
 
8:05 PM
@ÍgjøgnumMeg Lol, maybe I should learn how to read sheet music.
 
See also: 12tone, Adam Neely
 
@AkivaWeinberger Definitely
 
@ÍgjøgnumMeg Yeah, but even so, there's an element of, "Is this really the best way to describe what this bit of the song is doing? Or does it work this way? Or maybe you can hear it either way"
Check out the YouTube channels I mentioned (especially 8-Bit) though
 
@Akiva defnitely, this is why I like Adam Neely's channel as well
 
Oh, also, do ear training
 
8:08 PM
he talks about some chord in a song for about 10 minutes in one of his Q&As because "theoretically" it shouldn't sound good where it sits but for some reason it makes sense contextually
 
Ear training?
 
bar bell earrings
 
Best way to notice cool things happening in music you listen to
 
You mean picking up the key by ear?
 
@CaptainAmerica16 Like, being able to tell what intervals are being played, or where a note is relative to the song's key
 
8:10 PM
I've done that once. Someone was playing the piano in C and I said "Is that in C?" they said yes. I was happy inside.
 
or the chords (e.g. "Is this a IV-V-I resolution or a bVI-bVII-I resolution)
You don't need perfect pitch, just relative pitch
 
Wow, you know a lot about this stuff
 
Well when you learn about Fodor's lemma from Jech remember that the exercise is to show that it is actually an iff so it gives a characterization of stationary sets @Leaky
 
There's a lot of stuff I don't know because I've mostly just been improvising from the beginning. I feel like it's been a bit limiting since I've gotten more interested in composition.
 
@AlessandroCodenotti interesting
 
8:12 PM
Improvising is good
Experiment
Use the theory you learn to guide your experiments
 
Ok, I've going to check out that channel today. Thanks
 
@CaptainAmerica16 It's an illusion
 
Properly written the converse of Fodor's lemma reads "let $\lambda$ be an uncountable regular cardinal and $S\subseteq \lambda$ such that every regressive function $S\to\lambda$ is constant on a stationary set, then $S$ is stationary"
 
@AkivaWeinberger lol
 
in Lean a multiplicative group and an additive group are different things...
if you want to talk about a homomorphism from an additive group to a multiplicative group you would need to define it yourself because nobody has found a use for it yet
(why am i ranting about it here)
 
8:22 PM
$\exp:(\Bbb R,+)\to(\Bbb R^+,\times)$? @LeakyNun
Whatchu talkin' about
 
right... eventually we'll run into this
I think $\exp$ was just born not a long time ago
 
?
Born in your textbook?
 
in lean
 
Lean is an author?
 
never mind
 
 
2 hours later…
9:56 PM
So I found out that integration can be developed without a single mention of derivatives. Why is my class teaching integrals as if they are actual antiderivatives?
 
What does that mean?
 
@AkivaWeinberger Lean is some sort of formal math theorem checking machine or some such thing
 
How can we find all the primitive solutions of the diophantine equation $x^2+3y^2=z^2$ ?

Some solutions are $(\pm n , 0 , \pm n)$. How can we find also the other ones?
 
@MikeMiller You mean me?
I don't know what that really means. My lessons are being presented as if integrals = antiderivatives. Someone told me that isn't the right way to think about it.
 
I don't know what their point is.
 
10:08 PM
Fine, nevermind
 
Completely unhelpful to Mary Stars question probably, but how do we count $\Bbb Z^3$ solutions of that diophantine equation if we do have algebraic geometry tools?

We consider $\text{mSpec}(\Bbb{Z}[x,y,z]/(x^2+3y^2-z^2))$ or something?
 
@MaryStar dividing by $z^2$, this is equivalent to finding rational solutions to $a^2+3b^2=1$, consider the extension $\Bbb{Q}(\sqrt{-3})/\Bbb{Q}$, note that the norm of $a+b\sqrt{-3}$ is $a^2+3b^2=1$, so we're actually solving the norm equation $N_{\Bbb{Q}(\sqrt{-3})/\Bbb{Q}}(a+b\sqrt{-3})=1$. By Hilbert 90, any solution may be written as $a+b\sqrt{-3}=\frac{c+\sqrt{-3}d}{c-\sqrt{-3}d}$ where we can assume that $c,d \in \Bbb Z$ and $\gcd{c,d}=1$.
One gets $\frac{c+\sqrt{-3}d}{c-\sqrt{-3}d}=\frac{c^2-3d^2+2cd\sqrt{-3}}{c^2+3d^2}$
 
You want $\Bbb Z$ valued points of $\mathrm{Spec}(\Bbb Z[x,y,z]/(x^2+3y^2-z^2))$ but I don't how useful it is to translate the problem into AG
 
so comparing coefficients with $a+b\sqrt{-3}$, we get that $a=\frac{c^2-3d^2}{c^2+3d^2},b=\frac{2cd}{c^2+3d^2}$
 
I was slightly confused about taking $\Bbb Z$-valued points, given $\text{Spec}(\Bbb Z)$ isn't a point
 
10:15 PM
translating to the original equation, we get a parametrization $x=c^2-3d^2,b=2cd,c=c^2+3d^2$
 
Normally $K$-valued (for $K$ a field or division ring) points make sense to me as I can just use the functor of points and map $\text{Spec}(K)$
 
@user616128 I don't think AG is useful here
 
Just a curiosity secondary to the problem I guess
 
@MaryStar Hilbert 90 is probably overkill here, but I don't see a simpler way right now
 
@user616128 $Z$ valued points of a scheme $X$, where $Z$ is any scheme are just morphisms $Z\to X$
 
10:18 PM
I know that, but in the case that we take $Z$ valued points for $Z=pt$ this makes more sense to me
 
You can say something about $\mathrm{Hom}(-,X)$ and maybe Yoneda if you're one of the fancy category people :P
 
That's what I meant by the functor of points
I can take $\text{Spec}(\Bbb{Z}[x,y,z]/(x^2+3y^2-z^2))=X$ and consider $h_X=\text{Hom}(-.X)$
Then taking $Z$-valued points for $Z$ any scheme is just $h_X(Z)$
 
And in the case $Z=\text{Spec}(\Bbb C)$ or something
Then $h_X(Z)$ really is just including a point in anywhere
But if $Z$ is some random scheme like $\text{Spec}(\Bbb Z)$ my intuition is gone
Well I'm probably being uncareful with that comment
 
In this case $h_X(\text{Spec}(\Bbb Z))$ is really ring morphisms $\Bbb Z[x,y,z]/(x^2+3y^2-z^2)\to \Bbb Z$
 
10:20 PM
Really I would want everything to be a $K$-algebra, but its probably somewhat clear
 
if you want actually apply geometry to find a solutions to that problem, note that solutions to $x^2+3y^2=1$ form a conic and there's a group law on the set of rational points on a conic similar to the one on an elliptic curve.
 
Oh that's nice
brb
 
Daym, how to solve that limit?
$$ \lim_{x \to 2^-} \frac{2^x + 3x^2 - 16}{x-2} $$
of course without l'hopital
 
10:37 PM
What is a space in terms of mathematics
 
well, i did it dividing limit into $$ \lim_{x \to 2^-} \left ( \frac{2^x - 4}{x-2} + 3x + 6 \right )$$ and noticing that fraction in limit is just $f'(2)$ where $f(x) = 2^x$, so it's $4\log 2$
 
@MatheinBoulomenos Why is every variety smooth at some point?
 
10:59 PM
@TedShifrin how many reputation points must be accumulated to acquire smacking privileges?
 
I see how to prove it for hypersurfaces.
 
@MikeMiller it is sufficient to show that the variety is smooth at the generic point (by upper semicontinuity of the rank, this gets smoothness in an open neighborhood of the generic point), this can be checked via looking at the module of differential $\Omega_{k(X)/k}$. So the algebra this boils down to is that $\Omega_{k(X)/k}$ is a $k$ vector space of the dimension equal to the transcendence degree of $k(X)$
this works for $k$ perfect, I think the statement might fail otherwise
 
I'm not sure I understand exactly why we can check it that way, but I trust you
 
Okay, what is easiest way to show, that this equality is false:
$12 + 4\log 2 = \frac{1}{\log 2} + 7$
 
Balarka pointed out to me that since everything is birational to a hypersurface, my argument suffices
But this uses algebraic closedness I guess
And your argument sounds like it does not
 
11:09 PM
it doesn't
but it needs perfectness
 
sounds fine to me
 
This looks very neat
dimension of $\Omega_{k(X)/k}$ is dimension of the Zariski tangent space, I suppose?
 
yes
the idea is that if you have $x_1, \dots, x_n \in k(X)$ that are algebraically indenpendent and $k(X) / k(x_1,\dots,x_n)$ is separable, then $dx_1,\dots, dx_n$ form a basis of $\Omega_{k(X)/k}$
getting such a separating transcendence basis in characteristic $p$ is not that easy
 
11:27 PM
I have a question
Who is the auther of "Geometry: A Geometric Approach"
For those who have will or have not read this it's on the starboard
 
@MikeMiller What do you mean by variety?
I guess you mean a reduced variety? I mean, if you take $x^2=0$ rather than $x=0$, every point is singular.
@chandx $\log 2$ is irrational.
@chandx Don't use L'Hôpital. Use the definition of the derivative at $x=2$.
 
@Ted
 
@TedShifrin aren't varieties usually assumed to be reduced or even integral?
 
Thanks for removing the flubbed me, @Mathein?
 
@TedShifrin yes, i've used it, and thanks, $\log 2$ gives shortest answer i think
i mean its irrationality
 
11:36 PM
@Mathein: I mean, to me, a projective variety is given by a bunch of homogeneous polynomials. No one says it has to be reduced.
 
I mean, I've even written a paper about something where an embedded component shows up in the scheme structure :P
I know that's shocking. It shocked me too.
Especially now, since I don't remember what things mean :P
 
I was going by "integral separated scheme of finite type over a field"
 
Just goes to show why I asked for the definition of variety :P
I suspect that most people intend what you're thinking.
 
Are there parts of mathematics that are not useful
 
11:43 PM
For a ring requiring that $(R, \cdot)$ is a monoid gives us a non-commutative unital ring; and requiring $(R, \cdot)$ is a commutative monoid gives us a commutative unital ring. Does this sound right? Because I'd think requiring that it's a monoid would only give us a unital ring, commutative or non-commutative.
 
11:54 PM
@Ted I guess I always mean the defining ideal to be radical.
 
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