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12:00 AM
I think that the Marsden example really was "easy to see", since I did think of Darboux when I saw it (and I'm not exactly well-versed in symplectic stuff).
 
12:15 AM
Hey there guys. I'm back :)
 
1:05 AM
@GFauxPas it is true
 
what is true?
 
57 is the largest even prime
in $Z - {2,3,19}$
 
Hey everyone, I put up a proof problem that I need help with (induction question). If anyone can answer it or help me, that would be awesome! math.stackexchange.com/questions/2355579/…
 
@JohnLocke consider it done mr. smoke monster.
 
haha! nice reference
just dont put 4 8 15 16 23 42 as the numbers to the answer ;)
 
1:18 AM
;-)
 
1:36 AM
Typhon, here's a similar problem I found on our site. But, it doesn't explain induction that well: math.stackexchange.com/questions/1115105/…
 
@JohnLocke i dont an explanation of induction
your question fails to convey exactly what it wants proven
 
Prove that no matter how James splits the piles (starting with a single pile of n stones), the sum of the numbers on the blackboard at the end of the procedure is always the same.
not clear enough?
 
uuuh
dude
splitting n stones gives n stones
 
idk man, this is literally what the teacher wrote down in class
 
and what are these numbers on the blackboard?
...
 
1:44 AM
the products of the sizes of each pile
 
if you get three piles
4, 4, and 4
would that add 64 or 16 and 16?
or can you only split in pairs?
 
So the question is actually pretty clear about the splitting of the piles. He chooses one pile of stones and splits it into two smaller piles, writes the product of the sizes on the board, and then he repeats this process until there is only one stone in each pile
so there cant be three piles
 
...
he splits the big pile into two piles
but then he splits on pile into two more piles
and that results in 3 pileas
at that step, which product does he write?
 
okay let me just give u an example
 
no just answer my question
you have 2 piles a and b
pile a is split into c and d
what product gets written on the board
?
 
1:49 AM
he writes down the product ab and also writes down cd
 
thank you
 
each "pile of two" gets written down
 
the way it is written it is not clear that cdb isn't written down
ok then
 
Okay, does this make sense now?
 
you want to prove that 1 + 2 +3 +4 ... + k = all the other combinations
hmmm
induction may be useful here
but im not sure
 
1:51 AM
Well, the hint suggested strong induction.
 
with the case of n = 1 you can have a more trivial base case, fyi
 
i promise if you read this question, it might help: math.stackexchange.com/questions/1115105/…
 
ugh
 
And judging from the title you've already gotten the other part of the hint (i.e. guess the formula).
 
well the base case has to be 2, since n greater than or equal to 2
 
1:53 AM
@JohnLocke since when?
if you prove it for n > 1 does that not prove n > 2 as well?
 
in my question, "James has a pile of n stones for some positive integer n ≥ 2."
i mean if she had written n stones for some positive integer, i suppose our base case can be n=1
 
even then you can just say "a pile of two stones can only be split one way"
@JohnLocke the base case can be whatever you want
you're just proving a stronger statement that is easier to prove
 
okay
 
unless of course n = 1 makes the pile thing somehow invalid to talk about
i wouldnt touch negative or 0 for obvious reasons
 
@JohnLocke My suggestion: If you start with a pile of $n$ stones, and select $m$ of those stones, you'll end up with a pile of $n-m$ stones and a pile of $m$ stones.
 
1:55 AM
you can only split two stones in one way. Therefore, the base case is true.
 
That puts $m(n-m)$ on the board. But what does strong induction tell you about the two piles you've created?
 
ah
of course
@Semiclassical i promised to write them an answer
i just needed clarification
 
ah, okay.
 
mind if I take the reigns?
 
This can count as my hint, then :)
By all means.
 
1:57 AM
im writing it
 
if both of you write your version of how to solve this, it may really help mel. So @Semiclassical if you wanted to, please write yours too!
 
:-)
 
I can't figure what on earth this question is actually asking:
0
Q: Why are highly composite numbers 'beautiful' in decimal, but not so in hexadecimal?

Dark RealmsSorry about the "prime-numbers" tag. I thought it should have the same realm of contributors. This question surely prompts subjective answers without further explanation of 'beautiful' in terms of numbers. By a beautiful number, I mean one which has notable properties and patterns between the di...

 
he should probably put that question in a CS StackExchange
 
why?
 
1:59 AM
eh, if there's any site for it it's this one.
it's about representations of highly composite numbers in base 10 versus base 16.
problem is, 'notable properties and patterns' is not a meaningful criterion.
 
@JohnLocke this is a question about numerical bases, not programming or code.
definitely math
 
Though an answer has already shown up there, and it's reasonably satisfying.
 
2:11 AM
Huh, if $I$ and $J$ are subsets of $\Bbb Z_n$ such that the sum of their cardinalities $|I|+|J|$ is greater than $n$, then $I+J=\Bbb Z_n$
It's a fairly obvious fact but it's one I haven't noticed before and it kinda looks nice
(By $I+J=\Bbb Z_n$ I mean everything in $\Bbb Z_n$ can be written as the sum of something from $I$ and something from $J$)
 
I was a little confused whether you meant set addition (union), yeah
 
(The proof is that, for any $a\in\Bbb Z_p$, the sets $I$ and $a-J$ can't possibly be disjoint, so.)
 
@Typhon looks like emma put up a pretty good answer so far, just didnt finish the inductive step part. I understand it from there, but I am wondering whether we need to now think of further cases?
 
umm
i didnt read it
im writing a full proof barring one tiny tyhingy
but it is trivial
of course... it will just be a rough idea. Don't copy/paste my answer.
 
Oh, hey, corrolary, for any prime $p$, there exist $x$ and $y$ such that $x^2+y^2=-1\pmod p$
 
2:20 AM
hmmm
 
Wait I don't know why they wrote it like that
 
so like x^2 + y^2 = 2?
ill look later
busy right now
technically that is the galois norm for the gaussian integers
 
They could have written for any $p$ and $n$, there exist $x$ and $y$ such that $x^2+y^2\equiv n\pmod p$
Everything in those is the sum of two squares
 
so I can pull out the norm rule i proved for the extended integers
 
@Typhon It's a corrolary to the thing I wrote above, to be clear
 
2:21 AM
true
it is enough to show that 2 isn't a gaussion integer norm
 
darnit
:/
 
$3$ and $4$ aren't, though
 
well then idk
4 is
$2$
 
Oh right $0$ is a thing
 
2:23 AM
duh
1 is the counterexample
1 and 0
but now you must ask for primes beyond 2
 
In any case for any $p$ we have there's a number that's $3$ mod $p$ that's the sum of two squares
Like, if we want a $3$ mod $7$ thing,
uh, $1^2+3^2=10\equiv3$ works
 
kk
 
You can't necessarily do it if $p$ isn't a prime though
Like I don't think you can get a $3$ mod $8$
 
ok
 
@BalarkaSen Hey so the four square theorem is pretty hard
Is there an $n>4$ such that the $n$ square theorem is easy?
 
2:30 AM
idk
 
Like maybe it's easier to prove the weaker statement that every integer is the sum of six squares
Dear god it's late
Everything looks more interesting than it is
The same proof shows that, for two subsets $A,B$ of $\Bbb R/\Bbb Z$ whose measures add to more than one, their sum $A+B$ is the $\Bbb R/\Bbb Z$
 
it's 9:30
that's not even close to late, man
@JohnLocke I wrote an answer and the answer is 4 8 15 16 23 42.
0
A: Pile splitting problem (Proof by induction)

TyphonThe answer is 4 8 15 16 23 42 Joke aside what you actually need is iterated induction (sorta). Some setup: The ordering of two piles is irrelevant. A pile of 2 and a pile of 3 is the same as a pile of 3 and a pile of 2. This is important, and we need not replicate these cases when resolving...

 
DogAteMy is in South America ... so it's something like 11:30 or so there
 
@TedShifrin oh. wow
i never knew that
 
surprisingly, if you look at a globe, you discover that Argentina and Brazil are quite easterly.
hi ERic
 
2:41 AM
@TedShifrin i know. I thought akiva was canadian
 
@Typ
 
No, he's a New Yorker. But he's in Argentina now.
 
@JohnLocke yes?
 
@Typhon hillarious
 
hi @Ted
 
2:42 AM
wait
 
akiva is a guy?
i was never quite sure
 
rolls twelve eyes
 
ah ok
 
2:42 AM
gender is fluid though amirite akiva
2
 
for some reason I thought someone used she or her. :p
 
also thanks Typhon. I'm reading through it now
 
indeed
 
I mean, in theory it shouldn't change the way you interact with me
 
gender is fluid
 
2:42 AM
but yes I am a guy and Akiva is a male name
 
@AkivaWeinberger honestly, gender is as arbitrary as whatever you shove in your profile.
 
Yeah sure
 
as long as you aren't a member of some warfaring alien race attempting to digitally wipe the internet, I really don't give a shit.
 
I am also a New Yorker
 
Typhon, how mad were you about deciphering the stones and piles problem? It was really getting you riled up right? Imagine me here as a student looking at it...
 
2:43 AM
kewl
@JohnLocke it didn't make me mad. I just needed minor clarification.
 
@Typhon These things are not mutually exclusive…
 
@EricSilva: That stuff Demonark is talking about is some technical shit.
 
what is he talking about?
 
@AkivaWeinberger are you saying that aliens live in new york?
space aliens?
 
i haven't looked ahead to see what the lecture would be on
 
2:44 AM
I'm saying they might
 
A bit of dynamics (recurrent sets) and applications to Ramsey theory.
 
oh Ramsey theory
 
But it's super technical (by my taste).
 
i have a friend who's super into that stuff
 
I don't know about space aliens but there's a company that sells storage space so maybe them
 
2:45 AM
@AkivaWeinberger nah. aliens wanting to destroy the internet obviously live in Las Vegas. Destroying the internet is a real gamble.
consider it this way: a warfaring alien race could just use the internet to pacify us
heck, just make alien youtube
 
I'm sure Putin's got it all under control, DogAteMy.
 
and blow up a country everyone hates, like N. korea.
 
They could try, they just end up with a ranty Wordpress page with 0 views @Typhon
 
we'll probably prefer the aliens
 
Don't blow up North Korea
People live there
 
2:47 AM
@Ted the dynamics stuff in the bootcamp actually hasn't really managed to pique my interest
it's just like a lot of words
it has good pictures though
 
Well, if you studied the topology of dynamical systems on manifolds, there's a lot of geometry and interesting analysis. But that's more sophisticated.
I almost went into that.
 
@AkivaWeinberger you sure?
4chan is from mars
 
yeah i meant more the presentation in brin and stuck has been hard for me to get into
 
and that is infamous
the martian trolls are real
 
The hacker known as?
 
2:49 AM
i actually hope that amie wilkinson teaches something in the vein of dynamics on manifolds in a quarter where i dont have a lot going on, id like to learn something about it
 
4CHAN = for celestial hypocrites and nobodies
we're the nobodies in the universe
 
Yeah, Eric, it seemed too technical and full of notation for me. But I encouraged Demonark to give motivation and interpretations ...
 
and the rest of the universe is filled with celestial interstellar hypocrites
 
cool cool
 
(because they call us nobody and yet they are also nobody)
 
2:50 AM
im sure his lecture will be fine
 
He had a good command of the material.
 
yeah he's been doing it all the time lately so im not surprised
i have to start preparing a lecture on rectifiable sets and stuff
 
Sounds stuffy.
 
FUUUUUUUUUUU
my simulations have been running the exact same sim on repeat for two hours
 
yeah we're going through all the technical preliminary stuff for gmt before getting into meaty theorems
 
2:54 AM
also super technical ..
 
be back in a bit
i have to take care of this
(i only have 3 more days to run 5 days worth of sims)
 
yeah ive been noticing @Ted
although i found a book which has been significantly more readable than federer
 
we talked about it
anything based on technical real analysis is highly technical
 
which means I have to take advantage of 24+ pc's in the lounge tomorrow and Thursday when I go in for stuff.
 
funny that people find diff geo with some differential forms "formal" ... shrug
 
2:55 AM
Leon Simons' Lectures on Geometric measure theory has some of the stuff i need
 
heh heh heh
 
yeah true
 
oh, Leon is a good expositor
 
i love doing the nitty gritty analysis personally
yeah Neves' postdoc recommended his book to me @Ted
im liking it so far
 
I still wouldn't go down this rabbit hole as a rising 3rd year undergrad, but ...
it's your life
 
2:58 AM
what do you mean by this rabbit hole?
 
GMT
 
ah yeah fair
i wasnt planning on it to be fair
it's what neves decided to have us do basically
the one thing is that it takes a lot of work to not get very far which is maybe kind of bad for a summer project
 
$\lim_{x \rightarrow \infty} \sin(\frac{\pi}{2} + \sqrt{2+x} - \sqrt{4+x}) = 1$ is this correct
reasoning I thought of is
as $x \rightarrow \infty$ then $\sqrt{2+x} \approx x$ and $\sqrt{4+x} \approx x$ thus cancelling out!
 
That may be right, but it's not sufficiently rigorous.
What I'd do is let $y=\sqrt{2+x}-\sqrt{4+x}$. You're really interested in how this behaves as $x\to \infty$.
Do you know how to eliminate the square roots in that equation?
 
3:13 AM
squaring
?
 
sure, though I think it's a bit easier if you move the sqrt(4+x) term to the other side first.
 
like $y + \sqrt{4+x} = \sqrt{2+x}$
 
right. now square.
 
and then squaring
 
what do you get?
 
3:21 AM
so $y^2 + (4+x) + 2y\sqrt{4+x} = 2+x$
 
yep. if you move everything but the square root to the other side, you can square that again.
 
$y^2 + 2 + 2y\sqrt{4+x} = 0$
$y^4 + 4 + 4y^2= 4y^2(4+x)$
$y^4 + 4 = 4y^2(3+x)$
 
@AkivaWeinberger prove that there exist an infinite number of primes such that they are not Galois Norms of Gaussian Integers.
heh heh heh
@GFauxPas I disproved your conjecture. 57 is not prime.
 
yeah, which you can rearrange to $x=\frac{y^2}{4}+\frac{1}{y^2}-3$
 
shhh
 
3:25 AM
no
 
which...is somehow much less revealing than I was figuring it'd be.
 
@GFauxPas you shush
@Semiclassical is 57 a prime number?
 
according to grothendieck it is, and who am I to argue with him?
 
someone smarter
@Semiclassical I disagree with Grothendieck.
it is not a prime
nor is it even
 
3:30 AM
so $x = \frac{y^2}{4} + \frac{1}{y^2} - 3$
 
yeah. which, i'll be honest, is a lot less helpful than I was hoping it'd be.
 
now as $x \rightarrow \infty$ then ?
 
@BAYMAX why isn't it written as a function of x?
 
What I should have done with this (I'll lay it out directly)
Suppose $y=\sqrt{a^2+x}-a$ for some $a$.
 
hmm,thinking @Typhon
 
3:32 AM
i dont know what you are doing
but that equation is in the improper form
 
Then the idea from above gives $(y+a)^2=a^2+x\implies y^2+2ay=x$
Oh, bah. I'm doing this entirely wrong. My brain is not working tonight.
 
scrol up
@Typhon
 
why?
 
Where this should end up, ideally, is that $\sqrt{4+x}-\sqrt{2+x}\approx \frac{1}{\sqrt{x}}$ for $x\gg 1$.
 
As there is the original problem stated :)
 
3:36 AM
i don't really care about the original problem
 
Which means that it indeed goes to zero as $x\to\infty$, and you indeed obtain $\sin(\pi/2)$ as the final limit.
 
i wouldn't understand it anyways
im just saying that you have an unsolved equation and the first thing you must do is solve for x,right?
always solve for x
 
how you got that approximation @Semiclassical
 
tbh, I got fed up and used Mathematica
But I think I see the 'right' approach now. Lemme ramble for a bit.
 
ok
 
3:39 AM
Let $y=\sqrt{4x+x^2}-\sqrt{2x+x^2}$ (multiplying both sides of the above approximation by $\sqrt{x})$.
We want to show that $y\to 1$ as $x\to\infty$
One way to do that would be to factor $x$ from the square roots and get $y=x\left(\sqrt{1+4/x}-\sqrt{1+2/x}\right)$. But $4/x,2/x$ are small for large $x$, so we can do a binomial expansion and proceed from there.
alternatively, we can try the idea I was spouting above once more
rearranging, we have $$y+\sqrt{2x+x^2}=\sqrt{4x+x^2}\implies y^2+2y\sqrt{2x+x^2}+2x+x^2=4x+x^2\implies 2y \sqrt{2x+x^2}=2x-y^2$$
Squaring both sides again, that gives $4y^2(2x+x^2)=4x^2-4xy^2+y^4$
If I now divide both sides by $x^2$ and take $x\to\infty$ (presuming that $y$ goes to a constant) then this becomes $4y^2=4\implies y=\pm 1$
And it'll have to be $y\to 1$ because $y>0$ for all $x>0$.
 
how you got $x$ as common
 
I don't follow.
 
$y=x\left(\sqrt{1+4/x}-\sqrt{1+2/x}\right)$
it must be $y=\sqrt{x}\left(\sqrt{1+4/x}-\sqrt{1+2/x}\right)$
?
 
If $x>0$, then $\sqrt{x^2+4x}=\sqrt{x^2(1+4/x)}=x\sqrt{1+4/x}$.
 
ok
 
3:50 AM
That said, the argument at the end is kinda crap.
 
yeah a bit!
 
lol
"(presuming that y goes to a constant)"
ugh
it gets the right conclusion, but not a good argument.
 
yes maybe
 
Well, here's a less crappy version.
If you go to the expression after the second squaring, it's a quadratic in $x$.
Hence you can solve for $x$ as a function of $y$:
$x=-\dfrac{y^2}{2}\dfrac{1\pm\sqrt{8+y^2}}{y^2-1}$
 
23 mins ago, by BAYMAX
so $x = \frac{y^2}{4} + \frac{1}{y^2} - 3$
 
3:54 AM
@Semiclassical did you know that if two integers $a$ and $b$ are of the form $x^2 + py^2 = a$ and $x'^2 + py'^2 = b$, then $ab$ is also of that form?
 
So if $x\to\infty$ on the LHS, then either $y\to\infty$ or $y\to\pm 1$
But $y>0$, so $y\to-1$ is out.
So if we can reject $y\to\infty$ we're done.
 
is the above by me correct?
if it is then
 
@Typhon Huh. Pell's equation stuff?
 
we need to exclude $y \rightarrow 1$
 
@BAYMAX yeah, that should also be right.
 
3:56 AM
?
 
@Semiclassical what? Those are norms in Z[p].
 
Maybe so, but it's also pretty close to Pell's equation.
 
as $x \rightarrow \infty$ then $y^2 + \frac{1}{y^2} - 3 \rightarrow \infty$
 
hmmph
 
[To be expanded later when I get back home] Seeking for maths device on a possible art like effect: the impression of passing by horizontally a row of lamps, how to make the impression more dramatic
 
3:57 AM
interesting
 
@BAYMAX keep in mind that that $y$ I'm using in the last few expressions isn't the same as that $y$. So they won't be have the same.
With that in mind: Yeah, let's go back to that.
 
oh
ya
 
@Semiclassical essentially the norm of quadratic integers is distributive across multiplication
 
If $x$ is to satisfy that equation in the limit of $x\to\infty$, then either $y\to\infty$ or $y\to 0$.
So if you can rule out $y\to\infty$ you're done, yes.
 

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