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7:00 PM
Hi @Eric, I'll probably annoy you and @Dami with measure theory questions in the next few days
 
@AkivaWeinberger alright, I'm done. That's an interesting story-line
 
My favorite bit is the garbage football chapter, so I hope you didn't skip it
 
I skipped it :)
 
Mleh. The whole point of the story is to see what humanity does when faced with immortality
Why would you skip the bits with humans
 
Yeah, and I'm hearing it from the point of view of the spacepods
I don't like humans
:D
 
7:06 PM
Well the TL;DR for the garbage football one is that there's a bunch of people duking it out on the bottom of a canyon for the last 13000 years
 
I figured it was something like that from the discussion of the pods
 
@Alessandro mmk
I'm actually doing measure theory like right now
 
Aighty then
:P
 
@AkivaWeinberger to XXXX with $\Bbb R$, you can't even define $i$ in the language of fields where the model is $\Bbb C$
 
@LeakyNun Oh yeah
You can define $\{i,-i\}$ easily though
 
7:13 PM
sure
 
$x^2=-1$
or $x^2+1=0$ I guess
 
or $x^4=1 \land x^2 \ne 1$
 
im trying to show that $[0,1] $ is not limit point compact. someone can help?
 
@LeakyNun But yeah any set you can define has to be unchanged by conjugates
 
@AkivaWeinberger indeed.
but you can't define conjugate with the language
irony much
 
7:15 PM
how is it not limit point compact?
 
Like if something satisfies a formula then its conjugate satisfies the formula as well
which you could prove by induction on the length of the formula I guess
 
@AlessandroCodenotti i forgot to add "as a subspace of $\Bbb R_l$ " :P
 
$\Bbb R$ doesn't change under conjugates, though
 
@AkivaWeinberger yes but you can't define conjugate with the language
that's what I'm saying
 
Right yeah
 
7:16 PM
$\Bbb R_l$ has a basis of sets of the form $[a,b)$, right?
 
yes
 
Just saying that doesn't mean defining $\Bbb R$ is impossible
At least not immediately
 
ok, have you already thought about sequences in this space?
 
Wait maybe there's an argument that works
 
does $a_n=1/n$ converge? What about $a_n=1-1/n$?
 
7:17 PM
Something of the form "If you could define $\Bbb R$, you could define conjugates"
 
$1/n \to 0$
 
@AkivaWeinberger my point is
 
Wait actually
No I don't think that's right
 
every set that you can define must be closed under conjugates, yet you can't actually define conjugate itself, that's the irony
 
that reminds me of how the conjugate $\Bbb C\to\Bbb C$ can't be expressed as a polynomial, while the conjugate $\Bbb H\to\Bbb H$ can
 
7:18 PM
it has nothing to do with the problem of defining $\Bbb R$
 
@LeakyNun Ahh OK
Right OK sorry
 
@AlessandroCodenotti which polynomial?
 
Also we don't actually know if we can define conjugates, do we?
@LeakyNun
 
I don't
I'm just guessing that we can't
 
@AlessandroCodenotti nice, thanks
 
7:19 PM
Like the sentence "$x$ is a conjugate of $y$"
 
when I say you can't, I really mean "I've tried but I can't"
 
Yeah that's my guess too
 
@LeakyNun $\bar q=\frac12(q+iqi+jqj+kqk)$
 
Hi chat
 
hi @Astyx
 
7:21 PM
@AlessandroCodenotti interesting
 
Hey @Astyx!
 
What's up ?
 
that's the noncommutativity doing some dark magic
 
Not much, you?
 
@AlessandroCodenotti Also, luckily, two quaternions polynomials are equal everywhere iff they can be shown equivalent through algebraic manipulations
which isn't obvious because the terms could be weird things like $qiqjqi$ or whatever
so like maybe two polynomials are equivalent but you can't get from one to another through algebraic manipulations, maybe another identity is needed
But it turns out you don't (need an extra identity)
 
7:22 PM
Not much as well
 
I'm not sure if "polynomial" makes sense with regard to a non-commutative ring...
@Astyx oh you would love this puzzle
 
@LeakyNun I'm taking it to mean stuff made with our variable (which is $q$ I guess), constants, adding/subtracting, and multiplying
 
3 hours ago, by Akiva Weinberger
A puzzle: Write "$x$ is nonnegative" in the language $(0,1,+,\times)$ where the model is $\Bbb Z$
 
You can use logical symbols like $\forall,\exists,\land,\lor,\lnot$
 
and of course $=$
 
7:24 PM
nonnegative = $\ge0$ ?
 
@Astyx $\ge 0$
 
So like $\exists a:a^2=x$ is a way to write "$x$ is a square"
 
Yah my bad
 
@Astyx Yeah but $>$ isn't in the language so
 
You're allowed exponents ?
 
7:24 PM
Oh whoops
 
Obviously, I'm just braincheking :)
 
I mean $\exists a:a\times a=x$
No exponents
 
@AkivaWeinberger cool, do you have a reference or a googlable name?
 
No
I proved it with someone else one night, it was fun
 
@LeakyNun for quaternions the common choice is to write polynomials as $\sum a_iq^i$ I think
@AkivaWeinberger ah, I see, interesting
 
7:27 PM
The basic idea is that you can have polynomials that give you $b$
if $q=a+bi+cj+dk$
so like all the coordinates are polynomials
so you could convert your two quaternion polynomials into multivariate real polynomials, for which we know algebraic manipulation is enough
That was the idea anyway
 
$\lnot {(p_1)}$ where $p_n : (x+n=0)\lor p_{n+1}$
That might be cheating though
Not sure what you're looking for
(we're supposing $\lor$ is a lazy operator)
Meh not quite
 
@Astyx That expands into an infinitely large formula
 
@Astyx you can't
 
if you write out all the definitions
and that's not allowed
 
Yeah, so try/catch
 
7:30 PM
Besides, what prevents you from having a $p_{-1}$
You never explicitly said that wasn't one of the formulae
 
That last statement misses the point I think
The variable is $x$
 
@Astyx $-1+1=0$?
 
He negated it
But whatever it doesn't work
I just want it made out of the symbols I gave you
and parentheses
 
I don't actually understand what he wrote
 
Single line ?
 
7:32 PM
Unless it's so long you need a line break I guess?
$1,0,+,\times,\exists,\forall,\land,\lor,\lnot,(,),:,x,$ and variables to put after quantifiers
(like $\exists a$)
That's the available alphabet
 
Right
 
So from that alphabet we can get minus
 
@Daminark yes we can
 
This is sneaky, every attempt I make to do this seems to invoke it already
 
7:39 PM
Who starts with $\Bbb Z$ without $\Bbb N$ anyway ?
 
Wait can this even be done? $-\mathbb{Z}$ is isomorphic to $\mathbb{Z}$ so presumably the operations can't make this kind of a distinction
Like you do know one thing, squares are positive
 
@Daminark Note that you have been given which element is $1$
 
@Daminark it can be done.
 
But characterizing squares via non-squares allows you to talk about negative integers as well by slapping minuses in the right places, so a priori it's merpy
This is true
 
@Daminark no it isn't
 
7:43 PM
Yeah with my squares comment I realized this doesn't quite tell you the same thing, you'd have to swap operations
 
$1 \times 1 = 1$ doesn't mean $(-1) \times (-1) = (-1)$
bye
 
bye
 
Okay so we don't have set containment, right?
 
(did you get my message on the other chatroom @Daminark)
 
8:04 PM
@Semiclassical I got an A!
no idea how since I was averaging an 80 before the fina
l
guess I got 100 on the final?
 
Congrats !
 
<3 ty ty
 
Cool, @GFauxPas. Final in what?
howdy Astyx and Demonark (who isn't supposed to be here).
 
@ted probability, grad level
at NYU
 
oh, that's nice ... most grad courses aren't graded as strictly as you're used to from undergrad!
 
8:14 PM
how so?
this is my first grad class
 
Most professors give out much higher grades in grad courses. Don't know about NYU and your particular course, but most places they give mostly A's and B's, occasional C's or none.
 
oh, neat. I'll take that :) good to know
 
I had colleagues who gave all A's in courses past first-year grad courses. I never did that. Berkeley when I was there was essentially automatic A's for everyone after qualifying-exam level courses.
 
what's the philosophy behind that?
 
that grades are basically meaningless once you're in grad school ...
 
8:17 PM
haha
 
I don't completely agree, but lots of people do.
 
but i want to get into a good post-grad school
:P
 
What matters is passing qualifying exams, writing a thesis, getting good letters of rec based on the thesis. No one ever cares about grades you got.
 
got it
 
demonark apparently isn't here
Hi Ted
 
8:18 PM
What do you mean post-grad?
 
was a joke
 
Gotcha. I am humorless.
 
my mother says that the grade she got in medical school was "MD"
 
You should know that by now @GFauxPas
 
Demonark is supposed to be in class!
 
8:30 PM
@TedShifrin and managing the stress that comes with trying to do said reqs
 
Hi @TedShifrin
 
Heya MichaelA :) Long time no see!!
 
Yeah, I don't visit chat that often any more. I should come by more often.
 
how's your work going?
 
Slowly
But not backwards
so that's good
 
8:37 PM
excellent :)
 
Do you know about cyclic covers?
 
not too much
 
Do you know the definition?
But that is way too algebraic for me.
I looked in Lazarsfeld's book, but I couldn't find anything yet.
I would ask Jason in person, but he's not here at the moment
 
I learned about that stuff in the context of branched double covers in one of the first papers I ever read in grad school. Atiyah's paper on non-multiplicative signature in a fiber bundle.
 
If $L \to X$ is a line bundle and $s \in \Gamma(X, L^m)$, $m \geq 1$, then the image of $s$ is an $m$-sheeted cover of $X$ branched along the divisor $s^{-1}(0)$. Does that sound right?
 
8:41 PM
I'm trying to find a copy of that paper for you.
I found my .pdf. Do you want it?
 
Sure.
Do you still have my email?
 
Yup.
Just sent.
That doesn't sound right. I think you want an $m$th root rather than $m$th power.
 
@TedShifrin So I have to give a beamer presentation soon (on my thesis).
For the slides, do you recommend writing complete sentences?
 
I've never done beamer.
 
8:46 PM
Something that's sorta self-contained?
 
I've done a weak version of it.
 
I have having to do it too, but it's not up to me..
 
Thanks. I'll have to think about this some more. I'll take a look at that paper.
 
Or should I just go for essentially bullet points
 
I'll be glad to help if I can, Michael.
 
8:47 PM
I'm tempted to go for full sentences but the slides get pretty full of text and I don't think that's a good thing
 
@Danu as in, the latex class beamer?
 
Yes
 
Depends if you want it as something that stands alone, @Danu, or something just as an outline of your talk (with formulas written down, etc.).
 
Whoa, okay. That's weird.
 
@TedShifrin It's just to accompany a talk.
 
8:47 PM
Ever since starting university I've never done a presentation with some else than beamer o.O
 
Too much text is no good. AND you definitely do not want to end up just reading slides. You want to use them as a jump-off to more sentences.
 
@SteamyRoot lolwut
Y U NO BLACKBOARD
 
Well, blackboard too.
 
blackboard or bust :D
 
Oh horrors — I bet I'm going to have to teach using a whiteboard this year. :(
 
8:48 PM
@TedShifrin Yeah, I definitely wouldn't put all sentences on there.
The question is just... do I put any full sentences?
 
Sure.
 
Blackboard for seminars, beamer for presentations :P
 
BLACKBOARD OR BUST
 
If you want to see my compromise, on my webpage I have the lecture I gave (using LaTeXed slides) at an Math Association meeting when I won a teaching award. But I wanted it to be useful to people to look at afterward, too.
 
@TedShifrin: Hey there!
 
8:57 PM
heya @robjohn!! Long time no see!
You doing OK?
 
@TedShifrin Yeah. Real life is very busy atm.
 
Good for you!! :)
I get to go back in the classroom for a couple of hours a week, robjohn, so I'm pretty pumped about that.
 
@TedShifrin Flitting from place to place. My car has put on more miles in the last year than the previous six.
 
Wow ... well, my car needs a lot more exercise!
 
@Danu Usually I agree, but in short presentations time is just too valuable :(
 
8:58 PM
@TedShifrin That's really cool!
 
(Gonna teach a class for Art of Problem Solving this year.)
 
@TedShifrin Using the good book?
 
I dunno your reference. They have materials I'm supposed to use, but I have yet to see any.
 
@SteamyRoot I guess that's why thye're doing this to me now! I have 30 minutes...
 
@TedShifrin Knuth's AoPS
 
8:59 PM
oh, no, no, no, @robjohn.
You know about the AoPS program?
 
Art of Problem Solving?
 
@TedShifrin perhaps not.
 
@Danu On your Master's thesis? Or PhD?
 
Master's
I remember, I did AoPS exercises in my first year in uni
That was fun for a few days
 
This. They're opening a brick-n-mortar school in San Diego this fall.
30 minutes is ridiculous, @Danu.
 
9:01 PM
What is brick-n-mortar school supposed to mean?
@TedShifrin I know, right?! :(
PhD applications are cruel.
 
Most of their students do stuff electronically, @Danu. They have a few actual schools w/ "real" classes.
 
Hmmm, was 30 minutes for me too (20 min exposition and 10 min q&a)
 
The worst thing is that they told me to spend the first 15 minutes giving a general introduction understandable to anyone in their geometry group and putting things into context.
 
Oh wait, @Danu. This is for a presentation somewhere else? Not your defense in Munich?
 
@TedShifrin Cool! Never knew about that.
 
9:02 PM
This is my application in Hamburg @Ted.
 
Gotcha, @Danu. So they want to see if you understand stuff well enough to make it understandable ... and then do a few minutes at the end for experts.
Like a colloquium talk in the US.
Except we have an hour.
 
Drat! thought I had a bit of time, but I have to go again.
 
See you soon, robjohn!
 
idles
@TedShifrin Ill be back as soon as I can
 
LOL, ok.
 
9:04 PM
@Danu Well, if it makes you feel any better - for my public Master's thesis defense, I could not assume the audience knew the definition of a manifold :P
 
You could have talked about intake and exhaust manifolds, Steamy. Everyone knows those.
 
But that's fine too
That just gives you like... a carte blanche
because you can't do anything anyways :P
 
Well, as long as you skip exact definitions and work with easy-to-understand examples, it's surprisingly doable
 
yeah, @Danu, you have to resist the temptation to define too much stuff
 
hi chat
 
9:13 PM
heya Eric
 
is anything interesting happening
 
Maybe I'll send you what I made out of it once I manage to get something of a draft ready @TedShifrin
(probably by Friday)
 
OK, @Danu.
Nope, Eric. Should there be?
 
The talk is on next Wednesday (I should already feel bad I haven't prepared anything yet!!)
 
You should practice it on some of your friends, too. To figure out timing.
 
9:15 PM
But at least my talk in the seminar on the index theorem went well (I did some applications, taking the theorem itself as a black box).
 
nah just curious if anythings goin on
 
Typically time goes twice as fast as you think it will.
 
@TedShifrin Yeah, no worries, I'll practice.
 
@Danu I made my slides the night before. I didn't even have time to make proper figures so I made drawings and scanned them :P
 
I am quite experienced with this kinda jazz; my undergraduate degree was TONS of presentations...
@SteamyRoot Ew :P
 
9:15 PM
Not the most professional part of my career, heh
 
Oh, right. Never mind :D
 
so many people giving presentations lately
 
Not me, Eric :D
 
Lagrangian submanifolds, huh... Did you get any neat results? Or was it a lit. review?
 
@Ted, Amin, Danu apparently, and I have to give one on Thursday
 
9:16 PM
I'd say the results were pretty boring alltogether, because it was a pain in the arse to come up with good examples
 
Oh, I thought Demonark's was tomorrow.
 
His is, I have one I have to give the day after that
 
@SteamyRoot hehe
 
Oh, you confuzled me.
 
yeah sorry language was unclear
I should start prepping probably
 
9:17 PM
 
ugh @Steamy
 
I guess those were my results. At most, I managed to give examples of spaces to prove the arrows didn't go the other way.
 
btw, "parallelity" ain't no word.
 
@TedShifrin Yup. I had to put that in, but I showed the slide for like 5 seconds saying "these are my results, and no, I'm not going to explain this."
 
parallelness? o_0
 
9:19 PM
parallelism
 
It is a word in British english :O
 
hahaha
 
if we're gonna have a word
 
parallelism is a nice word
but it doesn't sound like it means the right thing
The parallelism of the subbundle
That sounds like some associated structure, not like a property.
 
parallelism sounds like like having a notion of things being parallel, not the property of two things being parallel
 
9:20 PM
I don't get it, but never mind ...
 
I remember I doubted which word to use, but my supervisor was fine with either and both were in some english dictionary :P
 
Parallelelolo
 
im gonna go make dinner, bye for now chat
 
Make me some, too, Eric :)
 
I noticed this question earlier: math.stackexchange.com/q/2354417/137524
 
9:24 PM
Dinner already ? @TedShifrin
 
not me, Astyx. Geez.
I saw the title, Semiclassic, but I haven't read it.
 
Then why would you want some ?
I'm confused
 
@Astyx: He's just cooking it. It'll probably take a while to cook ... and then he has to ship it to me; that'll take even longer!
 
It's a math question not a physics one, really
Despite the citation of Dirac in the title
 
@Ted You might need to heat it again when you recieve the package
 
9:26 PM
I know, Astyx — so even more time ...
 
Mostly I'm curious whether or not the appeal to Darboux's theorem is sufficient or not
 
I have a former colleague (who's Swiss) coming over with his wife and child next week. I have to decide what to cook for them.
 
So it'll be your dinner in 3 days - fair enough
 
The commenter thinks it is, and that was my immediate thought as well, but it doesn't seem to satisfy the OP
 
You're trying to make me read it carefully, aren't you?
 
9:28 PM
Well...yes? :)
 
@Semiclassic: He nowhere stipulated that the $z^j$ had anything to do with the symplectic structure. Anthony assumed they were canonical coordinates on the ambient manifold (and then knowing we have a symplectic submanifold it should follow that the first 2k are canonical coordinates on the submanifold). I think the OP wants an arbitrary coordinate system that flattens out the submanifold.
 
Can such coordinates always be found, though?
 
I just put a comment asking the OP. I suspect it's a correct result in general.
Can which such coordinates always be found?
Any time you have an embedded submanifold, locally you can choose such coordinates flattening it out.
 
Flattens out the submanifold
Ok
 
Yes, that's just the canonical immersion theorem ...
So I think it's going to follow from the fact that the submanifold is symplectic. We write down $\omega$ in the $z$-coordinates and get a block matrix form.
 
9:38 PM
I should also point out that I did look up the ref to Marsden, and it really it is just a parenthetical "it's easy to see that" remark
 
I used to own that book, but it too went away with the retirement.
I think it is easy. A combination of symplectic plus non-degeneracy of the big matrix.
 
I remember checking it out for some of the stuff on semiclassics (of course)
It was a bit hard for me to digest, alas
 
Semiclassic: I don't play naturally with Poisson brackets, so I'll have to think a bit to unwind all the definitions. But I think it's not too bad.
 
10:01 PM
Hey everyone! @Ted I'm looking for an empty room with chalk so I'll call you then
 
LOL, oh, ok Demonark.
@Semiclassic: The OP said that Ratiu/Marsden said it's easy to see that you can choose coordinates so that ... ... in which case I don't see why not use Darboux coordinates. So I'm confuzled.
 
10:31 PM
I should point out that I did slightly edit the OP: it initially read "choose a coordinate $z^i$" rather than "choose coordinates". But that modification was done on the basis of having tracked down the Marsden passage via Google books, and it indeed refers to "choose coordinates"
 
11:10 PM
@Semiclassical but choosing a coordinate $z^i$ is a lot different than just changing coordinates.
 
@SteamyRoot
Steamy Root
Sam Tertooy
 
@AkivaWeinberger prove that 57 is an even prime.
 
Evening.
 
conjecture: 57 is the largest even prime
3
 
@Typhon I dunno man it's so big
Might be, might not be, we'll never know for sure
 
11:20 PM
The issue is that GFauxPas's conjecture conflicts with the extremely strong Goldbach conjecture
 
That the one that says there are no numbers after 7?
 
Oops ... Didn't realize I was still in here!
 
Yeah
 
still notes DogAteMy has not disappeared :D
@Semiclassic: Right — so nothing stops us from choosing Darboux coordinates, where it's easy.
 
Right.
So it really is that simple
 
11:28 PM
But the OP seems not to understand the language, maybe? I dunno.
I tried to check it out in the case of general coordinates, and it's a mess.
 
Quick sanity check; Darboux's theorem only gives us a local chart. But that's all we actually need here, since we just want to confirm that the matrix is invertible at any given point
 
Yes, Darboux is only local (just as the general result about flattening out embedded submanifolds is only local).
 
11:46 PM
@Ted now that I think about it, it wouldn't surprise me if van der Waerden had applications in theoretical comspci
And it wouldn't surprise me if those applications had other applications
 
Babai's wonderful linear algebra/combinatorics text has all sorts of amazing applications of such things.
I was going to mention that to you.
 
In stuff that people actually do or something
Hmm, I know he has a "Discover Linear Algebra" book that was written kinda based on the REU, is that what you're thinking of or is it something else?
Oh linear algebra methods in combinatorics
Okay that's different, but it sounds cool
 
Right, the latter ...
It's got amazing stuff in it.
 
(I'm actually gonna talk with him tomorrow about doing some kind of a reading course so who knows? Maybe we'll use that)
 
He gave a lecture at an AMS meeting in Orlando, FL, years ago that absolutely impressed me beyond belief.
 
11:50 PM
Oh yeah he's my favorite lecturer here so far. I'll get to do discrete and combo next year so that'll be fun
How many of the lectures you (and this goes to everyone) been to where you got the vibe that the "it is easy to show that..." shtick was abused too much?
 
I've always tried to be careful about such phrases.
 

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