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10:00 PM
@AkivaWeinberger I know there are mathematical formula's to do that they are not based on aesthetics: isites.harvard.edu/fs/docs/icb.topic1386881.files/…
page 14, you can see some approach. Not for the affine transformations but for something else.
 
Well it says he made it look like a certain type of fern
 
Asplenium adiantum-nigrum is a good fern, probably
 
So you're asking how to get from the picture of a Black Spleenwort to an array of numbers?
 
@AkivaWeinberger yes. to the array of numbers on wikipedia.
 
I think he might have just messed around with the numbers using a computer until it looked right. Were computers able to do that in 1993?
Like, type in values, render, type in new values, render, etc
 
10:03 PM
Quick question, if $V$ is a vector space, and $U \subset V$, $U$ need not be a subspace of $V$ correct?
 
Is $U$ a vector space or just a set
I mean, you can take $V=\Bbb R^2$ and $U=\{1,2,3\}$, and $U\subset V$ and $U$ isn't a subspace
 
Anyone here do point-set topology?
 
we discussed that question in chat before I posted it on MSE @Kaj :P
 
I don't remember that @AlessandroCodenotti :/
 
it was shortly ago, you weren't there
 
10:06 PM
I think that construction I posted may work, but I'm feeling shaky
 
"we" was "the chat-dwellers", not me and you specifically
 
@KajHansen haha, you surely have your goals in focus haha
 
@Perturbative subsets need to inherit $+$ and $\cdot$ for you to even talk about it being a subspace
 
I had a similar construction in mind but tried to formulate it in terms of a dense and complete order that forks at every point when going upward, to get a tree like structure like yours, but it didn't work
 
10:08 PM
I think that should work because every time we need to add a new segment, @AlessandroCodenotti, there's a nonzero distance between the point at which it'd be added and everything constructed thus far
 
I have to think about your answer though
 
English doesn't distinguish between inclusive and exclusive "we" (i.e. whether or not the person spoken to is included), which I think is unfortunate
 
what languages do?
 
It's a weird fractally mess tho
 
I think some aboriginal ones in Australia but I'm probably wrong
I remember it being rare though
 
10:10 PM
yeah, but I think every such space will have to be quite a mess
 
maybe not if we're willing to drop "nice" hypotheses like Hausdorff
 
But the idea is "We just won the lottery!" may mean you and I just won lots of money, or it may mean me and my buddy have won lots of money and you haven't.
Similarly, "Nice weather we're having" if the communication is remote (like this one is)
 
It's rather fascinating, actually, that the $n=2$ case is simple, but the $n=3$ case is not. There's something fundamental there I feel like. Idk what it is
 
I have no restriction on hypotheses, even a non $T_0$ space would be enough, but I'm also curious to see how well-behaved it can be
the next question will be about what spaces satisfying the $n=2$ case look like, I mean if they are in some sense similar to $\mathbb R$ or if they can get very messy
 
I'm interested in the general $n=k$ case, but clearly we're not ready to consider that :P
My intuition of "connectedness" starts breaking down rapidly taking hypotheses away.
 
10:16 PM
Hello all, I'm stuck between choosing Abstract Algbra by Dummit and Foote, and Lang's Algebra, which one do you think would be better?
 
I think there should be some easily generalizable space for the $n=3$ case to higher cases, but that's just a wild guess
 
I liked Hungerford a lot. Same level as Lang. Not familiar with Lang though
 
***Problem***: Show that $P(\mathbb{N})\sim\mathbb{R}$

I was hoping to use Schroder-Bernstein theorem to do so but can't find suitable into functions for either side. Please help, thank you.
 
@AlessandroCodenotti, the $n=4$ case can be gotten from my example by having the new segments cut through the existing segment as opposed to having their endpoint on the existing segment
but that won't help for $n>4$ lol
 
@JonathanRichardLombardy consider binary expansions of the numbers in $(0,1)$
 
10:19 PM
I'm not entirely convinced that your example works yet, but if that's the case I agree concerning $n=4$ (I mean, it feels like it should work, but I need to think about it!)
 
neither am I
I wish someone smarter than me would comment on it lol
 
@JonathanRichardLombardy (With regards to what @Sophie said, remember that $0.1\bar1=1$ in binary, just like $0.9\bar9=1$ in decimal)
 
hi @KajHansen
 
$|\mathcal{P}(\Bbb N)|=2^\mathbb{N}$ so we want to map functions $f:\mathbb{N}\to\{0,1\}$ to reals in $[0,1]$
 
@KajHansen i wish someone smarter than me would be me
 
10:24 PM
Don't we all @Null ;)
Hey there Adeek
 
if the binary expansions were unique then $f\mapsto\sum\limits_{i=0}^\infty\frac{f(i)}{2^{i+1}}$ would be a bijection
that's not the case though so we introduce an equivalence relation $f\sim g\iff\sum\limits_{i=0}^\infty\frac{f(i)}{2^{i+1}}=\sum\limits_{i=0}^\infty\frac{‌​g(i)}{2^{i+1}}$
And now if you can prove that $|2^{\mathbb N}|=|2^\mathbb{N}/\sim|$ you're done (Hint: how many functions can there be in the same equivalence class?)
 
okay guys I need your aesthetic expertise. How should I make the horizontal asymptotes look on this graph? I can change type of dots and dashes, alpha, thickness, color...
these occur at $y = \pm \dfrac \pi 2$
this is $y = \operatorname{Si}\left({t}\right)$ if you're curious
 
@Sophie I am sorry but I dont get your hint. do you mean to transform a set to a number in $(0,1)$ (inj binary form).
 
I was going to say "it looks like a wavy tanh".
Not surprising since it's the sine integral then :P
 
Looks good as is, @GFauxPas.
 
10:31 PM
yeah? thanks
 
a real number $x$ such that $0\leq x\leq 1$. Find a bijection from $P(\mathbb{N})$ to that
 
But, yeah, I can't think of any way to improve the asymptotes really
 
and you can do that by representing reals in $[0,1]$ with their binary expansion and using the argument I sketched above
 
Thoguh we usually use $t$ as a variable if $t \ge 0$, right? I should stick to $x$
though it's all arbitary
 
You know how there are points in the standard Cantor set that aren't the end point of any interval used in the construction
 
10:33 PM
o.o
i'm so bored
 
almost all of them @akiva? The set of endpoints is countable
 
I'm not sure who this question was for, sorry
 
So I have a construction that's like that, where there's a countable dense subset such that cutting out any point in it breaks it into 3 parts
but it doesn't work everywhere
 
it's easier to find injections between $\Bbb R$ and $P(\Bbb N)$ than a bijection
 
10:34 PM
Akiva stop making sets up
 
@GFauxPas I'm trying to solve the problem
 
oh okay
 
I'm still interested, it might be a good idea
 
@GFauxPas If someone said that to the wrong person, some of measure theory wouldn't even exist!
 
:o
Is $2^{\aleph_n}=\aleph_{n+1}$ equivalent to the continuum hypothesis?
 
10:38 PM
Why don't you just glue on a $[0,\infty)$ at every single point of a starting $\Bbb R$? And then do this ad infinitum.
@GFauxPas No. That's more general.
 
c.h. is just for $n=0$ that?
 
that's called the generalized continuum hypothesis, GCH for lazy people
 
well I'm sure that one's provable
 
@Mike that was basically my idea, but then I ran into troubles when trying to formalize it...
 
Why do you run into trouble?
 
10:40 PM
whoa, "there are no models of ZF in which GCH holds and AC fails"
 
probably because I wanted to think about it as the topology induced by some partial ordering and messed up in the process
 
is there a conjecture we don't know whether is true or not but we know is not unprovable? I.e. we know there exists a proof or a disproof
 
Wow Sophie I never thought of that
maybe the exposition "there exists a conjecture we don't know whether is true or not but we know is not unprovable" is provably provable
 
the construction I ended up with was one in which if you take the starting $\mathbb R$ and "everything else" they are disjoint open sets
 
@arctictern It's right that the only normal closed subgroups of $SU(2)$ are $\pm 1$.
 
10:46 PM
Is the prove about no bijection that preserves order for closed and open sets (closes->open) easy?
 
yes, it can be done in a short sentence and you'll probably see it if you think about what makes $(0,1)$ and $[0,1]$ different as far as order is concerned
 
nah alessandro, in that construction, $\Bbb R$ is not an open subset.
(the everything else part is)
 
@Alessandro Sounds like Stahl's answer has some merit in it
I wonder why I didn't think of this
 
yeah it was just posted so I have to think about the details, but it seems like a good approach
@mercio I know, that was a flaw in my construction
 
I think it definitely does work
 
10:52 PM
It also generalizes nicely to more connected components
 
Yup
 
You generalise nicely to more connected components, @Alessandro :-b
 
yeah it definitely looks like it should be correct, but I'm sleepy, I'll see if it still works tomorrow in the morning :P
 
oh I think you could describe his example purely combinatorially
since his space has countably many points
 
Yeah
The smallest open set containing a point is three more points along with it
 
10:57 PM
@BalarkaSen hi
 
The "adjacent" ones
Hi @Adeek
 
wouldn't that contradict something
I think the opens have to be infinite
 
One would have to do it consistently so that the smallest nbhd of those "adjacent" ones contain this point too
 
in some direction
 
Um
Oh right
 
10:58 PM
ah, right, the fact that it's countable it's quite a surprise to me
 
@MikeMiller Yeah, I think you're right. Call each space in the construction $S_i$ so that $S_0=\Bbb R$ and $S_{i+1}=S_i\cup\rm extra~lines$. Every point in $S_n\subset S_{n+m}$ splits $S_{n+n}$ into three when removed, so that should do it
Is $S_1$ embeddable in $\Bbb R^2$?
 
What's $S_1$?
 
he's talking about mikemiller's solution
wher eyou just glue copies of $(0 ; 1)$ to every point and recursively
 
I haven't seen it
 
@BalarkaSen $\Bbb R\cup([0,\infty)\times\Bbb R)/\sim$ where $\langle 0,x\rangle\sim x$
 
11:00 PM
basically his space is the set of finite sequence of real numbers
 
Real line with rays glued to every point
 
i don't think $S^1$ can be embedded
because the open sets in $\Bbb R^2$ would be too big
 
@AkivaWeinberger God no. It's not even first countable.
 
Right
 
Remind me what that means?
 
11:03 PM
each point has a countable local base
 
$S_1$ or $S_\infty$
I'm just thinking about $S_1$ right now
Why isn't it first countable?
looks up second-countable
 
the space has a countable basis @akiva
 
I think you mean it's not second-countable
@MikeMiller
 
anyway I hate to leave in the middle of a conversation, but I'll sleep in class tomorrow otherwise... Good night everyone
 
Night
 
11:07 PM
G'night
 
Have a good night @AlessandroCodenotti. Thanks for getting me to think about something interesting today :)
 
you're welcome :P as I was saying before, if you need to kill some more time...
 
can you have a space which, upon removal of any point, totally disconnects it
 
10 mins ago, by Akiva Weinberger
@BalarkaSen $\Bbb R\cup([0,\infty)\times\Bbb R)/\sim$ where $\langle 0,x\rangle\sim x$
I meant for the second $\Bbb R$ to be discrete, by the way ^
for that to make sense topologically
 
not if it has more than $3$ points @balarka, I found that in an MSE quesiton when googling for my question earlier
 
11:12 PM
huh
 
@BalarkaSen I think there is
Look up Cantor's teepee I think
 
that's one point
 
@Akiva No. Pick a neighborhood of any of the starting points. Then for any of the attached [0,infty) in the neighborhood in S_0, it can have whatever open neighborhood of 0 in the tendrils
 
not all the points
 
11:13 PM
In particular you'll need a bunch of arbitrary sequences to make a nbhd base
 
I'm not sure.
Map $S_1$ (as a set) to $\Bbb R\times[0,\infty)$
 
Aren't the neighborhoods of the "starting points" in that topology the same as the neighborhoods of the starting points in the original topology
@MikeMiller
 
@Alessandro Thanks
That's a pretty strong result
 
I mean, the neighborhood of the starting point needs to include other starting points as well
 
11:15 PM
@Akiva You have uncountably many tendrils doing their own thing. That's a problem.
 
it's some kind of comb space
 
I wouldn't use it to comb my hair
I don't recommend it either
 
@MikeMiller Why?
 
actually $3$ points is too many already apparently, I misremembered
 
This isn't interesting enough to explain. Look up why the countable wedge of circles isn't first-countable.
 
11:18 PM
OH.
 
@MikeMiller, what's a wedge of circles?
 
Pick a bunch of circles, punch them all at one single point
 
Ah found it
Like the Hawaiian earring
 
slightly different from the countable wedge of circles
well, cross the slightly
 
Not necessarily different sizes? @BalarkaSen. Done in $\mathbb{R}^3$?
 
11:21 PM
No, it's an abstract construction
Take the disjoint union of circles and then identify a single point in each
The wedge of countably many doesn't embed in any metric space
 
Precisely because it's not first countable
Look at the bad point in Hawaiian earring. Any nbhd contains a copy of the Hawaiian earring - it's terribad. But nothing like that happens in the wedge.
 
Interesting
I understand everything of what you two have said
Just trying to wrap my head around why it's not embedable
 
Subspaces of first countable spaces are first countable.
 
even better subspaces of metric spaces are metric spaces
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rose_(topology)

This figure is supposedly a wedge sum of $4$ circles according to the wiki on wedge sum
 
11:25 PM
@MikeMiller I see. But I think there's a modification of it that is first-countable and also solves the problem. It's harder to fix second-countability.
I wonder if it's impossible for second-countable spaces to be "3-splittable" at every point.
 
isn't Stahl's example second countable?
eh, maybe not
 
Whose?
@KajHansen Stuff breaks down at infinity
 
The graph example
it's not because the end is a cantor set
 
The fact that n-splittable spaces are difficult to construct for n > 2 is really fascinating to me
Given the simplicity of the "2" case
 
His is also not even a little T1 lol
 
11:28 PM
What graph example? Does it look like the C (I'm blanking on the name) graph of the free group on two elements?
 
cayley
 
Yes! That!
 
and no, it's not quite like that, since his graph has no automorphisms
well, no fixed point free automorphisms
 
it's valence three at every vertex
 
@MikeMiller yeah, it's obvious if we think of it as Sp(1)
 
11:29 PM
mhm
 
gotta corner Forever Mozart next time demanding T1 examples
 
Also who's Stahl
 
the guy who posted that answer
 
Akiva/mine is T1.
 
Ah.
Brian Scott's got a new answer
 
11:38 PM
Oh, I didn't even realize it got answers.
 
@BalarkaSen Answer's up. It's brief.
 
Seen it. Reading.
Upvoted. Very interesting - I suppose it's very possible that $X$ is a manifold? The current examples are not, but that's not really much of an issue anyway.
 
Just take a neighborhood in $\Bbb R^N$.
 
Gotcha.
 
What's the moon hat?
 
11:52 PM
For participating at the start of winter solstice - dec 21
some people get a sun for that sometimes
 
One could probably get diffeomorphisms by figuring out what the homotopy type of $\text{Diff}(\Bbb R^n)$ is. But I don't know it.
 
I suppose DIFF(n) would be strictly more complicated than TOP(n)?
oh nevermind alexander trick fails
blah
 
DIFF(n) = O(n)
 
Ah, ok
 
Approximate by the derivative at 0
 
11:59 PM
Yeah, of course. Duh.
 

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