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12:00 AM
hello
 
How are you?
 
Question: How does one define the "transpose" of a linear operator? Having trouble googling for a reference.
 
@anon well, do you know what I mean?
 
For example, the Fredholm alternative says that if $Ax = 0$ has a non-trivial solution, then $Ax = b$ has a solution only if $b$ is orthogonal to to all solutions of $A^{T}x = 0$
Apparently this holds for linear operators as well as matricies, but I don't know how the transpose of a linear operator is defined
 
user71494
I have a question, if 1=0.999..., couldn't 1 mod 1 = 0.999 mod 1 = 1 = 0?
 
12:10 AM
@JohnWilson what's the square mean?
 
isn't mod only defined for integers
 
@Bitrex the transpose of a matrix is where you just flip the entries across the diagonals. More abstractly the dual of a map $f:V\to W$ is the map $f^*:W^*\to V^*$ given by $w^*\mapsto w^*\circ f$.
(note that with a fixed basis and dual basis, the matrix of the dual map is the transpose of the matrix of the original map)
 
@Bitrex If $A \colon X \to Y$, then $A^T \colon Y' \to X'$ is defined as $A^T(\lambda) = \lambda \circ A$. $X', Y'$ are the dual spaces (topological dual).
 
@Runemoro why are you writing 0.999 with only three 9s and no "..." in the second instance?
 
@anon, @DanielFischer Thanks.
 
user71494
12:13 AM
@anon I forgot to put the ... in the second one
 
@Runemoro but then where are you getting (0.999... mod 1) = 0 from? you're not allowed to make up your own (false) rules in math. you may be interested in this related question.
 
user71494
@anon No, I said that 0.999... mod 1 = 0.999 and that 1 mod 1 = 0
 
@Bitrex in abstract algebra one learns that in the context of quotient rings, where both addition and multiplication is defined mod [blah], we must work with residues of integers. however we can still talk about the quotient group Q mod <1>=Z (i.e. the quotient group Q/Z)
@Runemoro okay, then where are you getting 1 = (0.999... mod 1) from? (I assuming you are using the notation [a mod b] as a binary operation returning an integer between 0 and b-1.)
 
user71494
@anon Binary operation??
 
@Runemoro something that takes in two input values and returns an output
often programmer-types view 'mod' as a binary operation. math-types though think of it as a binary relation put on the integers.
 
user71494
12:19 AM
@anon Oh.
 
@anon Thanks. I'll have to save the abstract algebra for later. I'll be lucky to get through this functional analysis text :)
 
user71494
@anon So 0.999... mod 1 isn't 0.999...?
 
programmer types usually think of the mod operation as the "remainder" operation
 
@Runemoro are you using the programmer convention? if so then (0.999... mod 1) is equal to (1 mod 1) is equal to 0. if you use the mathematician convention then ... = -2 = -1 = 0 = 1 = 2 = ... (mod 1), i.e. every integer is congruent to every other integer mod 1.
 
user71494
@anon Ok
 
12:23 AM
@Bitrex Multiplication usually gets lost in these quotients by Z (i.e. in calculating mod 1) For instance .25*2 mod 1 is not the same as .25 mod 1 times 2 mod 1.
 
@anon In Python, 0.999 mod 1 returns 0.999.
 
and that is correct
0.999 mod 1 is equal to 0.999
however rune's question was about 0.999... mod 1
 
Oops! It's hard for me to see those dots.
Sorry.
 
@TedShifrin Finished the $\sigma(T)=1$ exercise.
 
12:39 AM
Howdy @Pedro
 
I think I need an example to help me get an intuitive grasp of what the transpose of a linear operator means. For example, lets say I have the linear operator $\frac{d}{dx}$ with some boundary conditions. How do I find its transpose?
 
How are you defining inner product? @Bitrex
 
@TedShifrin let's say $\int_{0}^{1}f(x)g(x)^{*}$
 
then if $A$ is a functional on the function space, $(\frac{d}{dx})^T:A\mapsto A\circ D$
 
Ok, so the point of the adjoint (not really called transpose here) is $(Tu,v)=(u,T^*v)$. Right?
 
12:49 AM
ah, that makes more sense. finding the adjoint is a matter of by-parts (vanishing boundary data is important)
 
@TedShifrin Well, the answer in my text is that the transpose of $\frac{d}{dx}$ with boundary conditions $y(0) = 0, y(1) = 1$ is the operator $-\frac{d}{dx}$ without any boundary conditions
 
Do you understand why?
 
And I'm not following how to obtain that with the definition given by @anon et al.
 
No, use my inner product formula.
 
don't involve yourself with the dual map definition. your problem makes clear it's talking about the adjoint map.
 
12:53 AM
@TedShifrin No, that's the problem. I have no idea why! :(
@anon Okay.
 
You want to integrate $u'v$ (ignore complex stuff now)
 
@anon I do not understand why you asked me that question.
 
@JohnWilson you asked me if I understood your question. on my screen your question has some square symbols in it. I am not familiar with that as a logical connective.
 
@TedShifrin is the "transpose" of a linear operator in this context just the Hermitian conjugate?
 
the adjoint $T^*$ is the unique map such that $\langle Tu,v\rangle=\langle u,T^*v\rangle$ for all $u,v$. even if the problem is using the word "transpose" it actually means the adjoint (which when talking about matrices is in fact the hermitian conjugate)
 
12:59 AM
It's called adjoint.
 
@anon Here is a better explanation of what I mean.
3
Q: Show by using logical connectives laws that $(P\to Q) \land (Q \to R) $ is equivalent to $(P \to R) \land [(P \iff Q) \lor (R \iff Q)]$

John WilsonI am having trouble with a problem in the book I'm self-studying from. It says the following: Show that $(P\to Q) \land (Q \to R) $ is equivalent to $(P \to R)$ $\land [(P \iff Q) \lor (R \iff Q)]$ by using logical connectives I have dedicated so far a hefty amount of time on this problem...

 
@TedShifrin, @anon Ok, thanks.
 
Do you see why the answer is right now, @Bitrex?
 
@JohnWilson What set of rules are you using? Just primitive ones or the full set?
 
@TedShifrin Yep, got it. Integrate by parts.
 
1:01 AM
Good.
 
@Ke
@KevinDriscoll I put a set of rules you can use.
@KevinDriscoll It is at the bottom of the post.
 
@JohnWilson Is that ALL the rules? Seems incredibly incomplete. For instance, Modus Ponens is not lsited.
 
@Kevin Driscoll There are many rules. I can't simply name them all.
 
@JohnWilson Okay, if you can't name them all then you're basically allowed to sue anything
 
@KevinDriscoll All I want to show is how to arrive from a to b
 
1:04 AM
some people when they teach this use a "primitive" set that has only 8 rules or so
ok, I'll check it out
 
@TedShifrin Hey =)
 
@KevinDriscoll I'm sorry. I'm not a mathematician.
 
I'm going to call the police right now
 
@Twink sigh Why?
 
why are you so upset?
:S
do you know where I am?
 
1:07 AM
@Twink Sorry, won't go down that track.
 
@JohnWilson Neither am I
 
I am at work
@PedroTamaroff Just listen to this: youtube.com/watch?v=W8m-8hcEz1A and you'll understand :D
 
@JohnWilson Are you familiar with proof by contradiciton, also called Reductio Ad Absurdum?
 
@KevinDriscoll I heard of it.
@KevinDriscoll I heard it with proving infinite primes
 
@JohnWilson ah but you havent studied it in the context of Logic yet?
 
1:11 AM
Rehi @Pedro
 
@KevinDriscoll Nope.
 
@JohnWilson Okay, I will attmept a direct proof then
 
hi Kevin
 
@KevinDriscoll Okay.
 
@JohnWilson I assume you have the rule of Simplification which lets you break apart conjunctions?
 
1:21 AM
:(
why do people ignore me :(?
 
@KevinDriscoll I do not know what the rule of Simplification is.
 
@TedShifrin I'm off to eat. Will you stay around¡?
 
@JohnWilson $$\begin{array}{lr} P \wedge Q \\ P \end{array}$$
 
u.u
 
gets rid of conjunctions
 
1:23 AM
@PedroTamaroff did you listen to the prank call?
 
@KevinDriscoll are you talking about arguments?
@kevinDriscoll I'm sorry I'm asking these probably dumb questions.
 
Im not sure what you mean "talking about argument"
I just mean its a rule that says
from P AND Q
you can derive P
 
@KevinDriscoll For what condition of Q?
 
There is none. THink about the truth Table
P AND Q is true if both P and Q are true
 
@KevinDriscoll is this metamathematics or something.
@KevinDriscoll let me draw the truthtable , 1 second.
 
1:26 AM
wolfram alpha is faster for truth tables
 
@JohnWilson No. It is just a valid rule of inference for propositional logic
 
@bitrex I do not know how to use wolfram alpha
 
@Twink Nope, sorry.
 
:(
 
@Bitrex if you know how wolfram alpha works can you let it compute this:
 
1:27 AM
why?
 
3
Q: Show by using logical connectives laws that $(P\to Q) \land (Q \to R) $ is equivalent to $(P \to R) \land [(P \iff Q) \lor (R \iff Q)]$

John WilsonI am having trouble with a problem in the book I'm self-studying from. It says the following: Show that $(P\to Q) \land (Q \to R) $ is equivalent to $(P \to R)$ $\land [(P \iff Q) \lor (R \iff Q)]$ by using logical connectives I have dedicated so far a hefty amount of time on this problem...

 
@JohnWilson Wolfram Alpha won't give you a step by step proof of that
 
@JohnWilson wolframalpha.com/input/… it will show you the truth table
 
@KevinDriscoll Okay.
 
It will let you compare the truth tables, but htats not what you want
 
1:28 AM
@JohnWilson use [text](link) please
 
@KevinDriscoll No truth tables.
okay
@twink okay
@KevinDriscoll I can only use the laws.
 
@JohnWilson Natural deduction only, I understand
 
@KevinDriscoll, can you show me this deduction way then?
 
"using the laws" is called natural deduction
thats the technical term
 
@KevinDriscoll I wouldn't mind seeing an alternative solution.
oh lol
@KevinDriscoll I'm learning a lot of knew words from you lol
 
1:32 AM
@Pedro: What's the challenge for tonight? :)
@Bitrex, how do you do truth tables in Wolfram?
 
@TedShifrin Just type in the formula in English and it will generate it for you
like a and (b implies c)
 
Very cool. Never tried that in Mathematica.
 
hi Ted
 
Hi Twink
 
Twink nice name.
My friend is a twink.
 
1:37 AM
thanks for not ignoring me Ted
That's cool John
 
Just keep up the math learning, Twink.
 
I do but everyone ignores me
 
@TedShifrin I'm back! =D
 
Pedro ignores me
Kevin ignores me
 
Why do you do mathematics?
 
1:39 AM
Thought you were hiding from me, @Pe :)
 
This is an open question for everyone.
 
@TedShifrin Well, not one really. I finished reading chapter four of Spivak's book. Read the proof of Stoke's Theorem, impressed by the trivial nature of it. =)
 
You sort of wore out your welcome, Twink.
 
I want to know people's motives for studying mathematics.
 
@Twink I don't.
 
1:40 AM
@JohnWilson are you familiar with the rule of Addition? $P$ implies $P \vee Q$?
 
why Ted? :(
 
@JohnWilson I do it for the kids...
 
@Twink You know why, don't play the fool! ;)
 
I've always loved it, and teaching, @JohnWilson.
 
Pedro I only sent you a prank call from youtube
that's all
:S
 
1:42 AM
@KevinDriscoll I never heard of that, but I think I can understand it.
 
what is wrong with that?
 
@JohnWilson Ya, the basic idea is that for a dusjunction to be true, only 1 of the disjunts must be true
 
@JohnWilson Passion. It's like loving someone, you don't really know why you love 'em, you just do. You may say "it's beautiful, nice, sweet" but there is a deeper reason that eludes you.
 
so if you know that a proposition is true
the disjunction of it with anything else is true
 
Let's stick to math, @Twink. You get uniform convergence under control?
 
1:43 AM
@KevinDriscoll Okay, that makes sense.
 
@PedroTamaroff You have a much more romantic idea of love than I do
 
no
I don't like uniform convergence
 
@KevinDriscoll Guess so.
 
I prefer quasi-uniform convergence
 
@Twink You should! It is the good convergence.
 
1:44 AM
Quasi?
 
because it gives a sufficient and necessary condition for the limit function to be continuous
 
in physics they dont even teach us the difference between pointwise and uniform convergence
 
@Eugene Yo.
Long time no see.
 
yo
you're pedro now?
 
(Did you ever see my picture?)
 
1:44 AM
interesting
 
@Eugene That's my name.
 
yes i did
pedro = peter?
 
@Eugene Yep.
 
@JohnWilson I have a proof. Gonna write it up now
 
In physics they are sloppy and assume dominated convergence often, @Kevin.
 
1:45 AM
agreed @TedShifrin
 
@KevinDriscoll I'm glad you have a proof because I wasn't getting very far :)
 
did not know that
 
we also don't always care about convergence. all of quantum field theory si asymptotic series
 
nice to see you're still active
 
@Eugene I keep on truckin! =D
 
1:46 AM
well you and anon both
 
I was answering some easy questions today
that's all I can do :(
 
I have no idea how to format this
 
@Eugene In fact, I just finished a section of Edmund Landau's Elementary Number Theory where he proves Dirichlet's theorem. I remember you made fun of me studying from Apostol! >:(
 
@KevinDriscoll Okay.
 
Well, @Twink, it took me 6 hours to figure out something for my graduate course that should have taken me 15 minutes. Join the crowd.
 
1:48 AM
Ted do you like my flag?
 
@TedShifrin What was it? The Lie thing?
 
apostol is a dumb book
lol
 
@Eugene Isn't he an eminence in ANT?
 
Yup. Got it finally at 11 pm last night. Realized I was being stupid with, all of all things, wedge product.
 
is he?
 
1:49 AM
@Eugene I think he is.
 
@Eugene What makes you dislike Apostols book?
 
Is there any generalization of the geometric mean that works as a norm in a normed space? The definition I have of a norm has that $||\vec{r}|| > 0$ when $\vec{r} \neq 0$, but the geometric mean is going to be zero if any component is zero
 
nothing i'm just making fun of peter
 
er
 
1:50 AM
Ok
 
@PedroTamaroff
 
but it is rather outdated i suppose
but for an intro book it's ok
i wouldn't use his second one though
 
@Twink ?
 
So what modern day book would you prefer over Apostols?
 
I've not worked the problem, @Pedro. Seems reasonable. I gave one for a multivariable limit earlier. Harder than I'd give my students.
 
1:53 AM
which one?
ant?
or MFDSNT?
 
@PedroTamaroff I wanted to ask you yesterday if you like Linear Algebra of Hoffman
and if you recommend it to me
or not
 
@Twink Never read it. I recommended a book from my uni.
 
hmm ok
 
thanks
 
1:57 AM
That's the course I am taking.
 
which one is it?
I don't see the book
 

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