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00:00 - 18:0018:00 - 00:00

18:00
2/x is not a polynomial because $-1$ is not a positive integer
he's asking why the definition of polynomial doesn't allow negative powers
its a definition..
and he's asking why it's defined that way instead of another way
I know its a definition but a definition has a reason for existance
just like a red stone is different from a blue stone
oh, I don't know enough mathematics to give a proper answer to that lol
18:01
@JohnMerlino Convenience?
gee remember me never to answer questions about matlab again
no, I think its deeper than that, and I want to know. I think it has something to do with how they are graphed.
@JohnMerlino I would be careful with the words you use
@Ethan Well I don't really see how it can be made more clear.
@JohnMerlino No, not really.
18:02
But consider this:
@Lord_Farin What exactly is a subformula then? I don't see how I could derive example 1.5 from 1.4
maybe that all polynomials must have constant slopes?
polynomials are more universal and more convenient. I can't think of anything beyond this, but they are hugely important points.
@JohnMerlino No they don't.
@JohnMerlino um, no
18:02
for example a line, parabola, etc have constant slopes
@Ethan Note that 1.5 is a non-example.
graphs of nonlinear polynomials do not have constant slope
@Lord_Farin It doesn't explicitly say that a subformula must be able to be used to construct a formula, and even this sounds sort of vague
@JohnMerlino parabolas do not have constant slopes. Only lines do (by definition, as well).
18:03
@Lord_Farin how are you ???
@Ethan Ok, let me approach this from the opposite direction.
I meant a constantly changing slope
for exampple the letter Z is not a constantly changing slope
only quadratic or linear polynomials have a constant rate of change in slope
Probably you have an "inductive" definition of formula. E.g. "A variable is a formula; if $F$ is a formula, so is $\neg F$; if $F,G$ are formulae, so is $(F\land G)$."
@JohnMerlino "z" is not a function, tho.
18:04
@Ethan Correct?
You know the vertical line test, by any chance, @John?
@Vrouvrou Hello there. I'm fine, thank you. How about yourself?
@Lord_Farin Yes, All formula are either atomic formula or can be constructed from atomic formula through the use of the logical negation and conjunction connectives
yes a vertical line is one where the y-axis changes but the x remains the same
18:06
I meant the "vertical line test", not "vertical line".
slope is undefined
i never heard of vertical line test
@Ethan Ok; due to the proper insertion of brackets, we have an (essentially) unique way of reading any formula. That is to say, there is a unique way to construct a formula from atomic ones using the rules of formation just given. (This is a theorem.)
Those formulae that we encounter in the course of this unique construction are the subformulae.
@Ethan Does this definition work better for you? Can you see they are equivalent?
@Lord_Farin uhm, are there any more precise definitions you could direct me towards
@LittleChild Except it is not commutative in general
People take commutativity in addition and multiplication for granted so much that they don't realize that it's actually a weird property.
18:13
"However, the division by a constant is allowed, because the multiplicative inverse of a non-zero constant is also a constant."
I understand what that says but I dont understand what that has to do with 2/x not being allowed
@JohnMerlino it said "constant", not "independent variable".
Right it says if you take the multiplicative inverse of 1/3, you get 3/1, which itself is a constant as well.
@Ethan At ProofWiki, they give (beside the common one) a presentation of propositional formulae using trees: here.
I know x is the independent variable of 2/x, but it will remain the independent variable in x/2 as well
In that presentation, a subformula is precisely a subtree.
18:16
you can even allow 1/x that is no problem. Taking the polynomial ring over any field there is a natural way of choosing the field of quotients of the polynomial ring
@DominicMichaelis Easy, easy... let's clear him up on the basic stuff first before we pull rings and fields into this. ;)
I was trying to make a point that don't we have a singularity with this constant: 2/0.
@JohnMerlino ...oh, you want $2/0$ to be sensible, eh?
Some one said earlier we have a singularity at 2/x when x=0.
18:20
(@Dom, see what I mean?)
Wont we have the same singularity with the constant: 2/0
@Ethan I have to go now; but feel free to ask further questions. I'll see the pings later.
ok thanks
@0x4A4D oh sorry I am thinking all day about morphism in categories
I first want to understand this, and then why negative exponents arent allowed either. And then I will be happy. Im not asking too much here.
18:21
Constants do not have singularities. Functions may or may not have singularities.
What are some useful books to learn advanced and olympiad type geometry?
@0x4A4D thats a good point, if there is a singularity, then by definition it cannot be a constant
I can agree with that
Please somebody suggest me some books?
@AdityaParson there's a thread on main about advanced geometry books, IIRC. Search around.
18:25
@0x4A4D and what about the negative exponents? Why aren't polynomials allowed to have negative exponents? Is it because X^-2 = 1/x^2, and if x is 0, then there is a singularity, as you suggested before?
@JohnMerlino Yes, you can say that. It was agreed upon in advance that polynomials cannot have singularities. $1/x^2=x^{-2}$ fails to uphold that agreement.
@anon and I didnt understand what you meant by this "he things they encode the relations for need not be invertible. note that the coefficients of polynomials don't even need to be invertible depending on the underlying ring" What is ring?
@Dom... I suppose you can step in, now. ;)
In the meantime...
6
Q: What are the differences between rings, groups, and fields?

cobbalRings, groups, and fields all feel similar. What are the differences between them, both in definition and in how they are used?

Let's just say these are concepts that are even more "basic" than polynomials.
If I might use an analogy: people agreed upon a definition of "planet" recently. That definition necessarily had to exclude Pluto.
I think I have a general understanding now. At first, i was thinking that polynomials had to have a constant changing slope, but I was wrong
18:51
@Lord_Farin: Hi bro. sorry I have seen your last comment here just now.
@somaye: Hi somaye, how do you do there? Hot weather there?
only and only work
too hot :(
it is really bad weather
what about you?
@somaye: It is a very good news. Work!. :-) Yes it is so hot and that is why I am reluctant to go to the university. :-(
@BabakS. :) how are you?how goes your work?
18:57
@somaye: I see you have changed your avatar some times. ;-)
@somaye: It goes well and I could generalize 3 structures in my field for the first time ever. :D
@BabakS. yes i like to change it
@BabakS. Great congrulation
@somaye: Thanks ;-)
@BabakS. but you almost always have smae avatar
Are you supposed to work for more than 8 hours?
you do not like change?
yes
19:02
@somaye: I have changed it several times. But this one is good, cause it shows that my heart is full of numbers. :D
from 7 am untill 6pm
i am at work
@somaye: You are working right now? :-O
no
i am free
i told you untill 6pm
Ohhh I see. you are off now. How many times do you get Imam R? Do you get there in a day? or for just some days?
i try to go more times
before
recently i coudnot go there
19:12
@somaye I still didnt fix my computer. :-(
@BabakS. why did you ask me this?
would you mind tell me?
@GustavoBandeira hi how are you?
:)
@somaye Fine, you?
@GustavoBandeira fine :)
@BabakS. ?
@somaye: I told you cause I miss there a lot. That's it.
@BabakS. ok i hope you can come here soon
19:20
@somaye: El-Tomas-2a Whenever you go there. Please. Thanks
Good night @somaye. ;-)
@BabakS. sure :)
@BabakS. good night
@robjohn thanks duder!
@TonyStark now you can read the gibberish :-)
20:20
Greetings
and salutations :D
@skullpatrol Hello
Long time I didn't see you around. How is it going?
@Chris'swisesister Fine thanks, how are you?
@skullpatrol I just did evaluate (again) the Dirichlet integral in one line $\int_0^{\infty} \frac{\sin(x)}{x} \ dx=\int_0^{\infty}\sin(x)\int_0^{\infty}e^{-xt}\ dt \ dx=\int_0^{\infty}\int_0^{\infty}\sin(x)e^{-xt} \ dx \ dt=\int_{0}^{\infty} \frac{1}{1+t^2} \ dt = \frac{\pi}{2}$
@Chris'swisesister The justification surely isn't a one liner.
20:35
@skullpatrol Now I'm thinking of a beauty series.
@PeterTamaroff sure, it's a bit more.
Yo @GustavoBandeira wazzup dude?
How goes the "crusade" @Lord_Farin?
@skull Hello!
Not much, just came home with food.
@skullpatrol It's going good, above my expectations. We're currently slowly gaining ground: this morning, it was over 23900, now we're at 23830.
20:50
nice
@skullpatrol Yes. I've seen around 10 people actively contributing to the thread.
The more the merrier..
@skullpatrol Well, contributing can be as simple as casting some votes.
I'm always interested in up-voting people's efforts :-)
@skullpatrol Good :). Just make sure to actually read the answers and assess them as you would any question. We don't want questions answered wrongly.
20:58
Indeed, accuracy is top priority.
@Lord_Farin What's the color of your hair?
@GustavoBandeira You mean beside 'irrelevant'?
@Lord_Farin yeah
@GustavoBandeira Undisclosed. :)
21:09
@Lord_Farin Ok. I'll believe it's blond anyway.
@GustavoBandeira Blonde.
@skullpatrol My bad.
@Peter Cê é bronze, cara.
@Lord_Farin would it be correct to say,
Any formula is a subformula of itself.

Any subformula of F is also a subformula of ¬F.

Any subformula of F or G is also a subformula of (F ∧ G).

If using these rules you can't build up a subformula to show it is a subformula of a formula, then it is not a subformula of that formula.
@GustavoBandeira What?
@Ethan Yes. As you see, the similarity with the rules of formation is striking. It could be considered an almost tautologous definition.
If you work it out, you'll see that this is precisely the same as the other definitions we discussed.
21:27
So if using those criteria I can't show a given formula is a subformula of some other formula, then it is not a subformula of that formula.
@Ethan Precisely.
What's the whole theory behind M * N = c and M + N = b when factoring a quadratic?
such as the following: (x + M)(x + N) = x^2 -8x + 7
$$(x+m)(x+n)=x^2+(m+n)x+mn$$
$b=m+n$
$c=mn$
't Is time for me to leave for the day. A good night to all of you.
21:39
how would I write $A$ models $F$ in latex
@Ethan I know that it works, because that's what the book says how to do it. I mean (x)*(x)=x^2. that makes sense. And if M is -7 and N is -1, then -7 + -1 = -8 makes sense. And -7 * -1 = 7 makes sense. All that makes sense. What is a little confusing is (x + M)(x + N) only has two x's. Yet the expanded form has three x's: x^2 -8x + 7. Now I know the FOIL method works in such a way to create that third x. But logically how is a third x become part of the expanded form.
how does 3 x's come from 2 x's
x*x=x^2. left side has two x's, right side has one. deal with it.
you know very well how the number of x's change: multiplying things out
@JohnMerlino You can easily see it by drawing a rectangle that is (x+M) long and (x+N) wide. The total area is the same.
to take another example, 2x=x+x. left side has one x, right side has two x's. there is absolutely no reason to believe that if two expressions are equal then the number of times something is written on the left is equal to the number of times it is written on the right, e.g. 2=1+1 doesn't have any 2 on the right, and similarly has two 1s on the right but no 1 on the left
yep your right
21:50
That was the proof
This is because of the distributive property of multiplication.
exactly
In the case of FOIL.
that was bad
w. t. f.
21:54
hmm
was that fun
In general the kth coefficient of $\prod_{n\in s}(x+a_n)$ is the sum of the distinct $|s|-k$ sub products of the variables $a_i: i\in s$
@JohnMerlino if $a_i=a_j$, $\forall i,j \in s$ sense multiplication is communative we can count each product the same, and sense there are $\binom{|s|}{|s|-k}$ coeiffients, it follows the kth coeiffient of $(a_i+x)^{|s|}$ is $\binom{|s|}{|s|-k}=\binom{|s|}{k}$
@Ethan Why are you confusing him?
I am helping
22:10
Help him help himself.
help me help him help you understand I can help him
define help
no
then you will never know what you are talking about nor what you are saying is true
define true
22:15
define define
define (define define)
All I'm saying is that this
11 mins ago, by Ethan
@JohnMerlino if $a_i=a_j$, $\forall i,j \in s$ sense multiplication is communative we can count each product the same, and sense there are $\binom{|s|}{|s|-k}$ coeiffients, it follows the kth coeiffient of $(a_i+x)^{|s|}$ is $\binom{|s|}{|s|-k}=\binom{|s|}{k}$
is not going to help someone who is struggling with FOIL.
indeed
How do I write models in latex
you know, |=
it looks like that
@Ethan like this $A \models F$ ?
22:24
ye
\models seems to be what you need
wow im stupid
$a \models b$
@Ethan Narh - I had to use the handwriting-to-LaTeX site to find it myself :)
i drew a cowboy hat and got $\theta$ as a result
lol
@Ethan lol
I got \Libra ...
but then my idea of a cowboy hat is maybe a bit non-standard
22:34
:-)
@skullpatrol To what language?
How would you translate "5 less than a number" into an algebraic expression?
@skullpatrol $x=y-5$ for some $y$?
Correct.
22:59
(Ethan removed)
Goodnight all
@JohnWordsworth Hello, barbecue-er.
$$\prod_{n=1}^\infty(1+\frac{x}{n^2})=\sum_{n=0}^\infty\frac{\pi^{2n}x^{n}}{(2n+‌​1)!}$$ $$\frac{\pi^2}{6}=\sum_{n\in \mathbb{N}}'n^2\prod_{n=1}^{\hat\infty}\frac{1}{n^2}=\zeta(2)$$
$$\frac{\pi^4}{120}=\sum_{(a,b) \in \mathbb{N^2_*}}'(ab)^2\prod_{n=1}^{\hat\infty}\frac{1}{n^2}=\frac{1}{2}(\sum_{n=1}^\infty\frac{1}{n^2})^2-\frac{1}{2}\sum_{n=1}^\infty\frac{1}{n^4}$$
$$\sum_{(a,b,c,...)\in \mathbb{N^k_*}}\frac{1}{(abc...)^2}=\frac{\pi^{2k}}{(2k+1)!}$$
$$\prod_{k=1}^\infty(1-\frac{x^n}{k^n})=-\frac{1}{x^n}\prod_{k=0}^{n-1}\frac{1}{\Gamma(-e^{2\pi i k/n}x)}$$
23:18
@Ethan What are you trying to prove?
i dont know
Try and find out first what the objective is.
no
You need a purpose.
Define purpose
23:23
1 hour ago, by skullpatrol
define define
:-)
@skullpatrol $$\frac{1}{1^6}+\frac{1}{2^6}+\frac{1}{3^6}+\frac{1}{4^6}...=\frac{\pi^6}{945}$$
I figured it out: x^2 – 18x = 0. There is no constant term, meaning that the constant term is 0, meaning that the y-intercept is 0. If that is the case, then when we factor out the equation (using the greatest common factor), we will then realize x itself is the value of b in ax^2 + bx + c, which in the example is 18, because b(b – b) = 0. x can also be 0, because 0(0 – 18)=0. Hence, our parabola crosses the x-intercept at 0 and 18.
@JohnMerlino Good.
If $d_k(n)$ counts how many ways $n$ can be written as a product of $k$ distinct integers $$\sum_{n=1}^\infty\frac{d_k(n)}{n^2}=\frac{\pi^{2k}}{(2k+1)!}$$
$d_1(n)=1$, $$\sum_{n=1}^\infty\frac{1}{n^2}=\frac{\pi^2}{6}$$
$d_2(n)=\frac{1}{2}(\sum_{d\mid n}1-1_{n^2})$
$$\frac{1}{x^a}\prod_{k=1}^a\frac{1}{\Gamma(-e^{2\pi i k/a}x)}=\sum_{n=0}^\infty c_{a,n}x^n$$
$$\sum_{n=1}^\infty\frac{d_k(n)}{n^a}=c_{a,n}$$
$$c_{a,n}=\sum_{n=1}^\infty\frac{d_k(n)}{n^a}<\frac{\zeta(k)^a}{a!}$$
23:43
Ethan STAHP!
lol
peter peter peter
pan
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