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3:00 AM
Yikes, but now I need to actually write them down.
@peoplepower
 
@PeterTamaroff Automorphisms are bijections and another name for bijection is permutation. Anon's hint was that these are determined by considering permutations on just three elements. See where this is going?
 
@peoplepower Well, isn't it somehow similar to what I am writing?
@peoplepower I mean, if we just chose values for $\eta(12)$, $\eta(13)$ and $\eta(23)$ in a one to one fashion, we get a bijection.
 
@PeterTamaroff And it permutes the three transpositions. What is the group of permutations of three things?
 
$S_3$.
 
So the automorphism group of $S_3$ is isomorphic to a subgroup of $S_3$.
 
3:12 AM
I see.
 
There are a billion ways to show that it actually is the whole thing, but a lot of them require more than what I assume you know.
 
But I told you, that we get $6$ automorphisms.
 
There you go.
If you have a rigorous proof of that fact, then you are done.
 
I really made an educated guess. Now I need to work on it.
 
Hi there guys
does anyone here go to the gym?
 
3:14 AM
What is your question?
 
I go to the math gems.
 
what is the math gems? @peoplepower
 
i go to the gym, my frequency is certainly a nontrivial function though
 
@anon what os do you use $\wedge$ hi
 
xp & 7
 
3:15 AM
cool, a windows user
 
it's called apathy
 
what is?
 
@Khromonkey I'm also a windows user. I like sun...
 
@MSEoris what the hell is nontivial?
 
nontrivial*
ie not very regularly
 
3:17 AM
oh
what?
 
@MSEoris Why would "nontrivial" mean "not very regular" in any sense?
@anon Oh, I think I have something.
 
In other words I could tell you appart from arnold schqartzeneger in his prime @MSEoris
 
$(12),(13),(23)$ generate $S_3$; yes?
 
You wrote $S_3$, and they were all products of those elements.
 
My yes is kinda "Shall I move on...?"
So two automorphisms need to dissent in this system of generators.
In particular since they are automoprhisms we only need to permute this elements.
And it's done.
@peoplepower Yes?
 
3:20 AM
@PeterTamaroff Yes.
 
A surjective homomorphism maps generators to generators, yes, so to find Aut(S3) it suffices to check which permutations of the transpositions extend to an automorphism of all of S3 (which is all of them here).
 
How can I make my latex renderer automatic on linux?
 
do you mean in chat?
 
yup
 
it's about your browser, not your OS, I believe
 
3:22 AM
@anon How would you check which permutations of the transpositions extend to an automorphism?
 
I have firefox
 
I know I used the renderer in ubuntu, for instance
 
You mean check $\mu(f\circ g)=\mu(f)\circ \mu(g)$ holds?
 
@Khromonkey shouldn't the renderer be automatic already then?
@PeterTamaroff yes
 
$\frac{1}{2}$
nope
 
3:23 AM
Greasemonkey can help in automating execution of scripts. If that is what you want to say.
 
$\vee$
it doesnt work
wait, it does
 
if you bookmark the automatic rendering script and use it once, it should work automatically until you close/refresh the tab
 
Ugh, but doesn't this follows from the fact I'm actually permuting the transpositions? I don't repeat any.
 
@PeterTamaroff I think it follows from the set of transpositions being a minimal generating set.
So there are no "collisions" when we extend to a bijection.
 
@peoplepower Oh. Something like defining a linear transformation in a basis?
 
3:25 AM
@anon I don't understand Prüfer's technique, why is it one one?
 
@PeterTamaroff I am not sure at the moment whether my intuition is correct here, but yes that is the analogy.
 
it is possible for a map that sends generators to generators to not extend to a homomorphism. for instance define $f:\{1,a,b\}\to\{1,a,b\}$ by $f(1)=a$, $f(a)=b$ and $f(b)=1$, where $1,a,b$ are generators of ${\bf Z}\oplus F\{a,b\}$ (the latter being the free group generated by $a$ and $b$)
@Khromonkey what is Prufer's technique?
 
oh my god, I don't understand that explanation
prüfer sequence
 
I think we need our group to be abelian for my argument to work, actually, since there will only be one way to write each element in terms of generators in that case. In the nonabelian case there will potentially be multiple strings representing the same element.
 
Why is the number of Prüfer sequences of n-2 terms a bijection between the number of spanning trees in n vertices?
 
3:30 AM
It suffices to check that every permutation of the three transpositions (12),(23),(31) is induced by an inner automorphism. This is easy if you know $\sigma(s_1\cdots s_n)\sigma^{-1}=(\sigma(s_1)\cdots\sigma(s_n))$ intuitively (in cycle notation)
 
now I do
 
Yes, that is one of the billion approaches ($G/Z(G)$ embeds $\rm{Aut}(G)$).
 
@anon I know that! =)
 
@Khromonkey you realize I have been talking to Peter and not you the entire time, right?
I do not study graph theory..
lol
 
@anon I have no clue about "free groups"; sorry. Thanks anyways.
@anon I had to prove it, actually.
 
3:32 AM
@anon Yesterday you told me a bunch of stuff about Prüfer code.
 
@anon But come again on the "inner" automorphism thingy.
 
Being a boss by not going to measure theory and staying at home
 
@anon what is it you study?
hi Benjalim
 
@BenjaLim You like to curse a lot over math things man.
 
I just read ANU is one of the best math colleges in the world
 
3:33 AM
@PeterTamaroff Please delete that comment on chat. Thanks.
 
do you guys like spanish rock?
 
@Khromonkey no - I mentioned the Prufer decomposition of the group Q/Z being the number field analogue of partial fraction decomposition in function fields. (this is very much a number-theoretic thing.)
 
@Khromonkey I have to go in a bit for the algebra seminar
 
lol
 
@BenjaLim Why? Cursing is not bad. Cursing bad is bad.
Bad cursing is bad.
 
3:34 AM
My cursing was not bad cursing.
 
thank you, Dr Seuss
 
Fuck this fucking fuck is bad cursing.
 
@BenjaLim when are you coming to Mexico?
 
Whereas Fuck this unearhtly turd is good.
 
@Khromonkey Not in a while, I have some friends there though
 
3:35 AM
Do they study math?
 
@anon Could you aid me on what you said about "inner" automorphisms?
 
If I come to that part of the world, I may go to Argentina as well to visit @PeterTamaroff
@Mariano
@Khromonkey No.
 
@BenjaLim Good. You'll enjoy it.
 
@anon so then you dont know the Prüfer thing?
@BenjaLim do they study at ITESM?
@anon so then what is it you study?
 
@PeterTamaroff Check that every permutation on the set {(12),(23),(32)} is a restriction of an automorphism on S3 given by $x\mapsto \sigma x\sigma^{-1}$ for some $\sigma\in S_3$ (such automorphisms are called "inner")
 
3:36 AM
@Khromonkey No, ITAM.
 
Economy?
 
yeah economics.
@Khromonkey My friend's surname is Chagín
 
nice, I know people who study that there
 
not sure if that is a common surname.
 
Mabye somewhere else on the globe it is
 
3:37 AM
and it's pronounced cha-hin
 
@Khromonkey I study number theory, groups and representations, diagrammatic algebras, and may look more into categories and combinatorics (ie species).
 
@anon Darn. I'm lost. I know what you want me to prove, but I am not sure why I am doing it.
 
I am particularly interested in learning about tate's thesis, langland's program, and monstrous moonshine, at some point in my life.
 
@anon you mean you know about combinatorics when it is connected to category theory?
 
Ok bye guys!
Have to go!
 
3:38 AM
@BenjaLim see you later. I have a friend called Cha Chin, mabye you meant that? He is from Taiwan.
 
@Khromonkey We already had this discussion. Do you remember?
 
@anon I have short term memory loss, I hit my head on a bus
 
@PeterTamaroff It will tell you that each candidate for an automorphism (which we mean to be a permutation of the three transpositions) lifts to an actual automorphism, and we will know it does because we concretely describe the actual automorphisms (specifically as inner autos for known $\sigma$s).
 
@Khromonkey No my friend is pure mexican.
 
@BenjaLim What is pure mexican?
 
3:40 AM
@anon OK; and that is because we can decomposite as $axa^{-1}$?
 
@Khromonkey I mentioned "species" in combinatorics, a sort of categorical language for generatingfunctionology. You then said you were not interested in category theory applied to combinatorics, but the other way around.
 
@and you suggested monoidal somethings
 
yes
 
braid somethings
But don't you need a strong grounding on regular combinatorics to go into that stuff?
 
I learned recently that quantum U(sl2) is tied to knots and diagrams in very cool ways. vaguely related.
@Khromonkey nope
 
3:42 AM
oh, damn, I'm finding the Van Lint really hard
 
heh. tied. puns puns puns.
 
I found Chartrand's book on graph theory more appropriate
You know you suck at math when your favorite part of a book is the preface because you don't get the rest
5
 
@anon OK, but how do you knew that?
I mean, I had no reason to know about this inner autos, so maybe I should try something else.
I was on the right path with choosing a sys of generators...
 
the inner/outer structure of symmetric groups is a famous elementary group theory topic
also, knowing about inner/outer autos is something for every group theorist's toolkit
 
@anon Jacobson defines inner automorphisms in the next exercise.
 
3:46 AM
heh.
 
He then asks to prove $Inn G\simeq G/Z(G)$
Then defines $Hol(G)$
 
ouch, the holomorph is nasty
 
And asks to prove $|Hol(G)|=|G||Aut(G)|$
 
wait, you already know about semidrect products before covering inner vs outer automorphisms?
 
Semidirect product?
I know about direct product, I think.
 
3:51 AM
how do you define the holomorph other than as a semidrect product of G and Aut(G)?
 
It is just $G^n$ and $(x_1,\dots,x_n)\star (y_1,\dots,y_n)=(x_1\star y_1,\dots,x_n\star y_n)$
Isn't that the direct product?
 
that is the direct product, yes
 
And what is the semidirect product of two groups?
 
I think that would need a page or two to introduce justly.
 
"...to be introduced justly."
?
 
3:54 AM
(to do it justice)
 
I guess then he just defines $AB$ as a coset of some sort?
I mean.
Just $a\circ b$ for all posible combinations.
 
The underlying set will be the direct product of G and Aut(G), but the multiplication will be different. You will have $(g,a)(h,b)=(ga(h),ab)$, where by $a(h)$ we mean the automorphism $a\in{\rm Aut}(G)$ applied to $h\in G$.
 
He doesn't specify that.
Wait.
He defined Hol as $G_L\operatorname{Aut}G$
Not $G\operatorname{Aut}G$
 
$G\rtimes {\rm Aut}(G)$?
 
$G_L$ would be the set of left translations.
 
4:00 AM
and he defines multiplication how?
 
He says it is a group of transformations of $G$ that contains $G_R$
But no clue on multiplication!
 
well, you have my permission to ignore that exercise
 
Good!
But I didn't progressin $\operatorname{Aut}S_3$ though.
I will ponder on it.
Need to complete my idea.
This one is odd!
Let $G$ be a finite group, $\alpha$ an automorphism of $G$ and set
$I=\{g\in G:\alpha(g)=g^{-1}\}$
Suppose $|I|>\frac 3 4 |G|$. Show $G$ is abelian.
If $|I|=\frac 3 4 |G|$, show that $G$ has an abelian subgroup of index $2$.
@anon
 
hmm
 
I leave it to you.
I really have no clue!
 
5:07 AM
Let's laugh!
 
user19161
5:20 AM
@GarbageCollector Laughing is good.
 
@JacobBlack That is correct!
 
5:40 AM
Hello all
I have a question: if someone gives teh correct answer to my post, am I supposed to select it as the answer AND upvote it?
 
do as you wish
upvote those you thought were helpful to you or to other readers, or which you think deserve reputation or to be highlighted for others. accept whichever one helped you best, assuming you have understood it sufficiently first.
 
but if i select one as the answer, am I supposed to upvote it as well?
 
as I said, do as you wish.
 
as opposed to just selecting it as the answer
ah. okay thanks
 
@AlanH most answerers are annoyed and confused when you accept without upvoting though
 
5:45 AM
O.o why is that?
 
because this sends the message "I have to accept one of the answers to keep my acceptance rate up, but I do not actually appreciate any of the answers, I am just keeping up appearances"
 
but acceptance rate is no longer shown any more?
 
oh boy I am slow on the uptake
when did that change?
 
a while ago, I believe
i may be wrong though
I don't see any at least
 
but seriously, the standards for accepting an answer should be set higher than the standards for upvoting the answer, so if you do the former but not the latter your priorities are confusing to say the least
 
5:49 AM
So upvoting is more "this was helpful" or provided a hint or insight. selecting answer is "this was the solution"
but if i do the latter, I should do both
correct?
I just want to make sure as to not upset anyone
 
@AlanH that's about right
 
@anon thanks
 
@Ethan the reason I don't answer is because I do not know
 
o
 
What would happen if you starred a removed comment?
 
5:52 AM
can you?
 
It appears so.
 
you dont get the option to
 
Oh...too bad.
 
you can remove starred comments though
 
how do you write not equal to, in latex
 
5:53 AM
\ne
 
I would have liked to watch for the next few hours as people would try to understand what the person wrote.
 
@anon didn't you say before that showning $$\lim_{s\to 1}\frac{1}{\zeta(s)L(s,\chi)}=0$$ would be just as hard as showing that $L(1,\chi)\ne1$
 
I agreed with that sentiment, yes.
 
Why? couldn't I have $L(s,\chi)=o(\frac{1}{\zeta(s)})$, so that it still might vanish, but when multiplied by zeta(s), as s->1, the previous limit still works?
Say I had $L(s,\chi)=O(\frac{1}{\ln(\zeta(s))})$
so that the limit is still zero
but the function still vanishes?
Why couldn't that scenario happen
 
the definition of $L(s,\chi)=o(\zeta(s)^{-1})$ is $\frac{L(s,\chi)}{\zeta(s)^{-1}}\to0$, which is the same as $L(s,\chi)\zeta(s)\to0$, which is the same as $\frac{1}{L(s,\chi)\zeta(s)}\to\infty$
 
5:57 AM
Let me re-word that sorry
 
L-functions have analytic continuations to meromorphic functions though. which means if it has a pole/root, it has a pole/root of some integer order
 
what does it mean to have a root of integer order?
 
if $f(x)$ has a zero, then $1/f(x)$ has a pole
might as well keep the same terminology
 
@anon how 'hard' is it show L functions don't vanish at s=1? What techniques are typically used?
 
IIRC the one I saw worked with $\prod_\chi L(s,\chi)$, but I don't remember the details
 
6:03 AM
iirc?
 
I am taking ibuprofen and going to sleep
 
@anon alright, thanks for the help, I appreciate it
 
6:25 AM
@Ethan, you can find a proof of nonvanishing at many places. For example Stein and Shakarchi Book 1, last chapter; Davenport, Multiplicative Number Theory; or some of Milne's notes.
You would probably appreciate the proof in the first two sources more than the last one, which is what anon's talking about.
 
6:46 AM
@Sanchez Are there any results on the distribution of integers with a specified number of prime factors?
Wouldnt it just be a simple counting problem, if the pnt was known
 
user19161
@anon Good night. See you in your dreams.
 
6:59 AM
@Ethan, yes
 
@Sanchez does it go under a certain name? can you point me to a source where I can read more?
 
In fact, you can read what Eric Naslund wrote.
I am pretty sure that the classical result by Landau is somewhere in Montgomery and Vaughan too.
 
user19161
@Sanchez Ah I did not know he has a submission there!
 
@Jacob :)
@Ethan, and actually as you know partial summation, it's probably a good exercise to deduce that distribution by PNT and partial sum
 
user19161
@Sanchez What about you? Have you submitted anything to arxiv?
 
7:10 AM
@Sanchez Hey
 
@Jacob, no, I'm just a small potato
@BenjaLim, hey
 
user19161
@Sanchez Haha, I am a banana and you are a potato, QED.
 
@Sanchez your saying its more like a combinatoral problem rather then a problem involving analysis
 
@Sanchez I just started on my course in AG
 
?
 
7:11 AM
@Sanchez After that my supervisor gave a talk on $\mathcal{M}_g$
 
@Ethan, doing partial summation is analysis to me (discrete version of integration by parts)
@BenjaLim, wow, I know nothing about that
 
Didn't understand anything and then he mentioned in front of everybody that after I finish Fulton I can prove some theorem related to that
 
It may be a good thing to know what a stack is at some point, just saying
 
user19161
@Sanchez Haha, it is simply arithmetic!
 
@Sanchez I know like I was at the talk and I heard like blah blah hilbert scheme blah blah Deligne - Mumford Criterion blah blah
 
7:13 AM
@Jacob, lol
 
@Sanchez A lot of algebraic geometers here!
 
They are just names though. You will learn about them at some point.
 
And the two guys one from harvard and another from columbia were previously collaborators
 
Hilbert scheme is pretty nice.
 
@Sanchez For me right now if I don't do so well in my measure theory and DG classes I won't care
@Sanchez But for AG I really need to make it count man
 
7:16 AM
Haha
good luck! :) That's gonna take a lot of work.
And you'd better care about DG though.
 
@Sanchez Probably yeah.
@Sanchez I hear the journey is long and hard
@JacobSchlather Hi.
 
I'm always getting pinged, when I'm not actually in here.
It's all @JacobBlack's fault.
@BenjaLim What's up
 
@JacobSchlather We seem to cross paths on main a lot :)
 
Yeah, we have similar interests I think
Did you see the question i asked earlier math.stackexchange.com/questions/307406/…
?
 
@JacobSchlather You're a graduate student yea?
 
7:20 AM
Yeah
 
@JacobSchlather With regards to your question, I haven't really studied separable extensions. My experience with field theory has been mainly with algebraic number fields.
 
Ah, well it's about inseparable extensions but fair enough.
 
@JacobSchlather But you do ask if you proof generalises to the inseparable case.
 
Right, well the transcendental case is fairly simple.
 
I meant to type separable :)
 
7:22 AM
Because we have $K(x) / K$ and then K(x^2) \subsetneq K(x)
 
@robjohn: hey, missed you last time!
 
Although it also has the strange note that although K(x^2) is strictly contained in K(x), x^2 is still transcendental over K so that K(x^2) \cong K(x).
 
The isomorphism coming from $x \mapsto x^2$ ?
 
@JacobSchlather right. Have you studied things like algebraic number theory before? It helps to know some when dealing with finite extensions of $\Bbb{Q}$.
 
7:26 AM
Yeah, I'm in the process of reading Janusz' Algebraic Number Fields
 
ah ok.
 
All of this goes through over $\mathbb Q$ because my proof works for any separable extension.
It's mostly calculus\
 
yeah but a lot of people tell me you need to be lightning quick
 
When were you thinking of taking it / when were you planning on applying to graduate school
Ah, I just took the math gre this past fall because I'm trying to transfer
 
@BenjaLim Does ANU take in students in September? (for grad school?)
 
7:28 AM
where to?
 
I have applications out to wisconsin-madison, washing, ann-arbor and san diego
 
@OrangeHarvester I don't think so because everything starts in feb.
 
we'll see if I get in anywhere :P
 
@Jacob, I'm not reading it very carefully, but why does your proof work for separable extensions that may not be Galois?
 
@OrangeHarvester Like for example today is the second day of term.
 
7:30 AM
@Sanchez Let $K(\alpha)/K$ be a separable extension let $L$ be the normal closure of $K(\alpha)$ now apply my argument. Maybe I should make that explicit.
 
@BenjaLim Yeah. I read that. I tried to get some info from the ANU site because some programs do take students in september, I could not find anything definitive about which programs though. If you get time, can you just verify? No rush though.
 
@OrangeHarvester Sure. You could enter as a masters student. If not possible, you could always wait till february?
 
@BenjaLim Yes I can wait I guess. thanks.
 
@Jacob, ah of course. Somehow I thought you were requiring L to be simple with generator $\alpha$.
 
@Sanchez Why does the proof not work?
 
7:35 AM
?
 
It's ok :)
 
@Sanchez Yeah, I think the first time I proved it I did it for $L=K(\alpha)/K$ a Galois extension, then when I worked on the separable case I realized the previous proof generalized very nicely. Then it all fell apart for the inseparable case. I have some thoughts on writing an inseparable extension as K(\alpha)/K as K(\alpha)/L/K where L is the separable closure of K in K(alpha). But I'm trying to get this annoying paper on periodic generalized binomial coefficients written currently.
 
@Sanchez Thank goodness there
is a phd student here who is also studying algebraic geometry under a guy who was a student of Mumford
I will be meeting him a lot and hanging out a lot :)
@Sanchez @JacobSchlather Bye guys. I'm going to make dinner. Good luck with whatever you need to be done and most important - may you be happy.
 
@BenjaLim Later.
 
@Ilya And I think I have missed you this time, too! >8(
 
7:53 AM
@JacobSchlather, I posted an answer.
@BenjaLim, that's nice :)
 
@Sanchez It seems that there are one or two small typos in your answer that are making it difficult for me to read.
 
Like?
 
by K(α^q) contains K(alpha^p^n)
I guess you must mean since.
 
$K(\alpha^{qp^n}) = K(\alpha^{p^n})$ is the assumption here.
Does it make sense now?
 
I think so
Okay so then that second sentence is saying for some $k$ that $K(alpa^q)=K(alpha^(p^k))$
 
8:08 AM
hm?
 
I was confusing quantifiers essentially
 
But is there a mistake here?
 
I don't thinks so, although I've never been entirely sure on inseparable extensions. This all seems right to me, it'll just take me a minute or two to digest
 
Same here.Hopefully it's correct.
 
I think the reverse direction is fine. The forward direction isn't obvious to me. Because K(alpha)=K(beta) does not imply that K(alpha^n)=K(beta^n).
 
8:18 AM
If p = char K, and n is a prime power, it's true.
 
I believe you
 
suffices to do the case where n = p, and for that, note that $\alpha = f(\beta)$, where $f$ is a rational function. Take $p$-th power on both sides give $\alpha^p = f(\beta)^p = f(\beta^p)$
This shows that $K(\alpha^p) \subset K(\beta^p)$. By symmetry they are equal.
 
Ah, gotcha.
@Sanchez Thanks for settling that problem, it's been in the back of my head for a little while. I'm off to make some food.
 
user19161
@JacobSchlather Ah, it's all your fault, now I am getting your replies too!
 

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