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3:00 PM
i basically changed it so my Q function was a little different
(sum j=1 to N)(sum i=j+1 to N) Ai*Bj
but trying to follow through the rest of it, i am not sure it's holding up
 
Your dice: $\{112555,124444,223337\}$
die 1 wins over die 2: 2 wins 1/6 of the time, 5 wins all the time. The total probability of die 1 winning over die 2 is 1/6 x 1/6 + 3/6 x 1 = 19/36
 
is there a symbol for integral the way f' is for derivative?
 
die 2 wins over die 1: 2 wins 1/3 of the time, 4 wins 1/2 of the time: The total probability of die 2 winning over die 1 is 1/6 x 1/3 + 2/3 x 1/2 =1/2.
@JoeStavitsky you mean like $\sum$?
 
i know how to calculate conditional probabilities
i am trying to figure out the recursive counting algorithm
for all valid sets given some upperbound for a particular face value
 
3:12 PM
@robjohn, I can't render that
 
all valid sets where A>B>C>A or A<B<C<A
 
@JoeStavitsky have you gotten the MathJax bookmark?
 
@robjohn: Surely you mean $\int$?
 
Let $A_i$ be the number of times $i$ occurs in die $A$ for $i = 1,2,\ldots,N$, and similarly for $B_i$ and $C_i$. Let $$Q_N(A,B) = \sum_{j=1}^N \sum_{i=j+1}^N A_i B_j$$
therefore for die A to beat die B with >50% probability, $Q_N(A,B)$ must be >18
 
nice
but, no, not the integral function - I mean, is there a way to write integral of a function with the name of the function, the way f'=df(x)/dx?
also, what is the integral of 2x?
 
3:21 PM
x^2+c
 
or 4x+2/2?
 
for basic integrals like 2x, you raise the exponent by 1 then divide by that new exponent
think of it as 2x -> 2x^2 -> (2x^2)/2 -> x^2
 
@ZhenLin yes
 
ah ok
2xdx=2x
 
dx only makes sense if you are talking about an integral
integral of f(x) dx
 
3:26 PM
ok got it
(6-2x)=((6-2x)^2)/2 rather
 
I wanted to ask how are the graphs of f(x) and f(1/x) are related.
 
@5T0M Not in any obvious way...
 
@KannappanSampath do you know how to change $$Q_N(A,B) = \sum_{j=1}^N \sum_{i=j+1}^N A_i B_j$$ into a recursive relationship
 
@AOAOne Not really!
I would begin by writing out $Q_{N-1}$
 
well yes
my difficulty is connecting that back to the original
 
3:40 PM
Are you sure about the upper limit of the index $j$?
 
both i and j have upper limits N
 
If it is $N$, then the inner sum refuses to make sense?
 
it is a way to tell if die A beats die B >50% probability
where Ai = number of faces on die A with face value i
same for B
so we only care about situations where i is higher than j
 
I know not what you're speaking about. : P
 
two dice, A and B
6 sides, they have face values
a face could be anything, could be 1, 2, etc, up to N
A=[1,1,1,1,1,1] ... [N,N,N,N,N,N]
 
3:43 PM
I am not sure if I'll follow.
 
alright
 
I am sorry to disappoint you.
 
no worries, i am sadly used to it ;-; seems like nobody gets these problems
 
4:10 PM
hey, could someone check if there are only minor mistakes or is it totally wrong? mathbin.net/93009 (Poisson process) I have a feeling that i made some illegal operations..
 
somebody call the math police =P
 
not yet
 
Suppose there is a polygon, and there is a point inside it, how to prove that the sum of distance of that point from the sides of that polygon is actually equal to the area of polygon !
@KannappanSampath
 
@5T0M: is this true?
 
@5T0M That cannot be true in general. If you scale everything linearly by a factor of 2, the sum-of-distances doubles, but the are quadruples!
 
4:23 PM
errr, oops error, i meant the perpendicular distances of that point from the sides of the triangle
and yes @JoeStavitsky it is true, i have seen it written
 
@Henning I have a system of equations set up -- would you be willing to take a look and advise on how to make it recursive?
 
@AOAOne No guarantees, but you can try. Are you using "recursive" in the sense of "depends on its own definition" or in the sense of "computable"?
 
Computable, I suppose
 
So what you mean is that you want to write a program that solves the equations?
 
4:41 PM
Yes
(Sorry for the delay, typing up my notes for you)
hopefully it is clear
@HenningMakholm pastebin.com/1jLVDn4Z
 
@JM !!
 
@5T0M They can differ greatly. $\sin\,x$ is nice. $\sin\frac1{x}$ is most decidedly nasty.
@robjohn Hey!
 
@JM another hot looking gravatar.
 
@robjohn Heh. It's still part of the experiments I did with Voronoi diagrams.
 
Suppose there is a polygon, and there is a point inside it, how to prove that the sum of distance of that point from the sides of that polygon is actually equal to half of the area of polygon ! (ignore them dimensions)
 
4:45 PM
@5T0M what happens if you double the size of the polygon?
 
Yes I am suspicious of that statement, and I'm only in calc 1 :/
 
the area quadruples, yet the sum of those distances only doubles.
 
aha, just a minute
 
@HenningMakholm does this make sense?
 
@AOAOne Sorry, my TLDR circuit blocks on that. Better luck somewhere else.
 
4:48 PM
Suppose there is a regular polygon, and there is a point inside it, let the sum of that point from the sides of the polygon be X, and the area of the polygon be Y, how to prove that X=2Y/a (where a is the side of the regular polygon)
 
:(
 
It could use some intuitive introduction to what you want Q_[n](A,B) to represent.
 
I explain what it is below the equation
 
@5T0M "sum of that point from the sides of the polygon be X" - huh?
 
It's the number of outcomes where A beats B
 
4:49 PM
@5T0M How does that work?
 
@5T0M do you know the formula for the area of a triangle, given the base and altitude?
 
i mean t the sum of the perpendicular distance of that point from the sides of the triangle
and its working for triangle and square, and hexagon
 
@5T0M So, altitudes? Then see rob's hint.
 
@robjohn ofcource i know that
 
Note that you can always triangulate a regular polygon from an interior point.
 
4:52 PM
ya
 
The bases will always be the side length of your regular polygon, yes?
 
yes
 
You see how it all comes together now?
 
@5T0M I think that your statement is simply an application of that formula, as JM has explained :-)
 
but the problem is that the point can be anywhere inside the polygon, and that makes the dealing with triangles complex
 
4:54 PM
ommmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
 
@5T0M So? Why complex? You did say you know the altitudes...
 
@5T0M no, it shows the generality of the base and altitude formula
 
is anyone else willing to help me with my recursion
 
@MarianoSuárezAlvarez :-)
 
@5T0M The polygon is (by assumption) regular and therefore convex. So whatever the point is, draw lines from it to each corner of the polygon. That gives you a set of triangles that work.
 
4:54 PM
@AOAOne recursion?
 
@MarianoSuárezAlvarez if that's a "hello", then... hi!
 
yes, trying to create a recursive function for counting
i have the system set up
just not sure how to execute its structure
 
@AOAOne counting what?
 
@JM: it is me trying to invoke the good spirits of the universe and grant me peace of soul
Hi, in any case :D
 
4:56 PM
@MarianoSuárezAlvarez were we disturbing your peace with our prattle?
 
@robjohn as anon said, "why do people keep assuming this is a math chatroom?!" :)
 
I find it soothing :D
 
@JM I know, why is that?
 
@robjohn Beats me. It is plain and clear from the room description that it is a mathS chatroom.
 
4:57 PM
@MarianoSuárezAlvarez ah, like white noise.
 
@robjohn It's actually a Hindu thing. :)
 
ohhhh, a huge mistake
 
the beating of waves of reason against the impenetrability of my skull
 
its actually inverse of the distances of that point from the sides of the polygon
 
4:59 PM
Speaking of white noise: I always need to have the fan on in my room, cold or not; if it isn't on, I hear my clock, and the clock's ticking is more annoying than the hum of the fan...
 
Have you considered getting a tick-less clock?
 
digital clock
 
@HenningMakholm Can't find any, and I don't quite like digital clocks...
 
its a small computer , calling it a clock is an understatement
 
do you guys know of other math chatrooms? i don't mean to insult or anything but I really need help setting this up and there seems to be a lot of nonresponse on this website
 
5:01 PM
Also, the ticking is alright at daytime; it's when I'm sleeping that it's bothersome.
@AOAOne Have you already asked on the main site?
 
yes
 
@AOAOne In which case, you might have to wait a bit; not everybody is a regular visitor (e.g. me)
 
Are there other active sites?
 
@AOAOne I almost missed that link. Let me look at it.
 
@AOAOne well, the adjective "active" makes things a bit difficult...
 
5:03 PM
@JM You could look for a digital clock with an analog face (actual hands) which self-syncronizes via NTP when it is powered up. Then wire it so it feeds from the room light so it turns off when you shut off the light to go to sleep and resynchronizes in the morning!
 
@AOAOne google this>>> maths chat room filetype:swf ,
 
@HenningMakholm sounds like a plan; I'll ask around. Thanks!
 
@JM Of course if the sun happens to come up during the day and you switch off the room lights, the clock will stall, too...
 
I figured that would be the snag... :)
 
Cap! Who knew binary fractions would be so popular?
 
5:11 PM
@HenningMakholm The last upvote was mine, apparently. :)
(and it's funny how BCD isn't as common as it once was...)
 
Well, back in olden times the computations one could contemplate before needing to print the result in human-readable notation were so simple that the extra complexity of implementing native BCD arithmetic was small compared to converting between binary and decimal at every input and output. Today the ratio between arithmetic operations and decimal I/O events is different.
 
mm
 
This may also be related to why BCD was especially popular in administrative/financial computing (very little arithmetic), whereas it never caught on in scientific computing.
 
@HenningMakholm Oh, yeah. It was always the business programmers who dealt with them...
 
@robjohn I don't know if you're still taking a look or not but I can show you the function I have so far?
 
5:20 PM
...and now only calculators are doing BCD. But maybe things will change for those also.
 
@JM I actually wondered when writing the answer: do (4-function) calculators still even exist? I assume graphing/programmable calculators use general purpose hardware and IEEE754 arithmetic internally. But even those are rapidly being displaced by smartphone apps, I think.
 
@HenningMakholm If memory serves, boh TI and HP are still using BCD internally. I've wondered about why none of these high-end calcs know IEEE myself...
...and yeah, there are still those simple calculators in supermarkets and low-end electronic shops.
(I don't know about the other calc makers, but those two are usually the ones who do a lot of changes.)
Ah, I knew it. The current high-end ones still use Motorola 68k processors, and those do BCD arithmetic....
 
I guess the nice thing about BCD is that they are well-suited for decimal UI...
 
5:38 PM
...and I gotta step out. Later.
 
@ZhenLin and (1/5)x5 = 1
actually, it is more important when written as .2 x 5 = 1
 
@robjohn did you check out the link or is it too long/tldr/etc?
 
@AOAOne I looked at it, but I haven't had time to analyze it yet
 
6:03 PM
things like BCD are sorto of mandated in certain commercial conetxts
 
@AOAOne Why do you set A[i] to be the number of faces with the value i, rather than just set A[i] to be the value of face i?
 
where floating point can lead to numerical differences
 
Because the order of the faces do not matter
 
nowadays they us BigNums and such things
 
@MarianoSuárezAlvarez that was the point of my comment re: .2 x 5 = 1
 
6:03 PM
and I know that the recursive definition Q_[N](A,B) = Q_[N-1](A,B) + A_[N] * (sum from i=1 to N-1) B_[i] holds
 
@robjohn, ah: I'd missed that :)
 
A_[N] * (sum from i=1 to N-1) B_[i] is like saying "Number of faces on A that have the value N times the count of all faces on B that have numbers lower than N"
which makes sense intuitively
my current attempt at making F() although for only the scenarios where A>B>C>A: pastebin.com/QcEV1r9V
gives results way too high
I wonder if @carlop can see this?
 
integral((2x^3+1)^4)(6x^2)) by u substitution - help please?
 
u=2x^3+1, du= 6x^2 dx, so the integral becomes u^4 du
u^4 integrated becomes u^5/5
 
so, derivative is always du, undifferentiated becomes u?
what's the final expression?
 
6:17 PM
it means you are substituting (or replacing) parts of your integral
integral((2x^3+1)^4)(6x^2) dx) means we are setting u=2x^3+1
giving us integral((u)^4)(6x^2) dx) but we need to substitute out the rest of the x terms
 
ok, 6x^2 becomes what?
 
that's what you set du to
 
ah ok, so du = derivative of u
 
yes
 
now I see it
 
6:20 PM
The idea is that you can apply u-substitution to integral( f(x) f'(x) dx) as a general rule
in other words, if you see the integral of something where you generally have two parts, where one part is the derivative of the other
 
Unfortunately I'm in the stupid calc course, where difference quotient is not covered
 
you can always cheat and read it from a book
it is not like difference quotients is a well-kept secret!
 
so think of u-sub as being useful for situations where you are asked to solve integral( function X * derivative of function X dx)
 
yea I got that far
 
You let u = f(x) and du = f'(x) dx
 
6:22 PM
It was just - when is it applicable, and what do I do with outside stuff
I get it now
 
so in integral((2x^3+1)^4)(6x^2)), we can let f(x)=2x^3+1, and we can let f'(x) = (6x^2)
ok
 
yea
and then proceed as specified w/integration
heh.tried wolframalpha, got big ugly mess
 
6:40 PM
@AOAOne: Sorry to change the thread here, but did you get the following:
$
\begin{align}
Q(A,B) &= 19\\
Q(B,A) &= 14\\\\
Q(A,C) &= 15\\
Q(C,A) &= 19\\\\
Q(B,C) &= 20\\
Q(C,B) &= 14
\end{align}
$
 
What is this?
for which dice?
 
The values of the Q for the dice you gave
 
the example dice?
112555 124444 223337 ?
 
yes, those look like the dice you gave
 
Stop playing dice and get back to work ;-)
 
6:42 PM
@skullpatrol did you change your name again?
 
@robjohn yup (pardon my interuption)
 
#AB=19, BC=20, CA=19
#BA=14, CB=14, AC=15
yes, we match
in that case, die A beats B, B beats C, and C beats A (their values are all above 18)
 
what is the problem, then?
18 is not important
certainly, if the score is above 18, it has to win
but a score below 18 can also win
 
it is though; for a die to beat another with >50% probability, it must have, out of all 36 possible outcomes, victories more than half the time
if it's <=18, it isn't >50% probability
 
It can beat another die with less than 50%
 
6:46 PM
for this particular problem statement, dice only count when victory is >50%
 
but you are not considering ties
 
i know my interpretation is correct; my brute force program matches the sample output
ties don't count as wins
it's only >50% percent across the chain
 
but 50% of the wins doesn't count ties either
 
what?
when i say a die wins more than 50% of the time i mean that there are 36 possibilities for two dice (6 faces vs. 6 faces). The die that rolls a higher number wins. ties don't count in either person's favor -- all we care about is how often we can expect to beat the other die
 
take the dice 123456 and 123457
 
6:52 PM
AB=15, BA=16
 
and you don't think B wins
 
it isn't >50%
 
It is greater than 50% of the wins
 
conditional probability: if A is 1, how many can it beat? 0. if A is 2, how many can it beat? 1. If A is 3, how many can it beat? 2. If A is 4, how many can it beat? 3. If A is 5, how many can it beat? 4. If A is 6, how many can it beat? 5. That's 15/36, or <50%
i am operating purely within the confines of the problem's definition here as to how it's counting wins
 
conditionally, B wins 16/31 and A wins 15/31
 
and I read the "beating with greater than 50%" as winning more than 50% of the wins.
 
and my brute-force output for N=7 under this >50% rule pastebin.com/raw.php?i=qF1W5q3e
9780=9780
 
@AOAOne that clarifies nothing as there are no ties there.
 
there are going to be ties in my data
and the output matches
it's only counting conditional wins based on how often rolls of one die will be greater than the other. 111111 vs. 111112 just means die 1 is never going to win but die 2 wins 6/36 of the time. That means it's only rolling a higher value 6/36 of the time, which is far less than the problem asks for
as it is defining a nontransitive die as rolling greater values >50% of the time
perhaps the question is just worded poorly but the output matches their statement for N=7 under this assumption
 
It depends on how you interpret "larger than 50% chance of winning". If we consider only the wins, then we would use conditional probability. If we consider the ties, then there are lots of dice that are incomparable.
 
7:05 PM
the current interpretation yields the same matching number of dice generated for N=7
 
@AOAOne So counting ties matches their result?
 
my program gives 9780 which is the number the problem gives as the example
no, counting only wins the way i delineated earlier
 
wait... you were counting ties before, so that you need >18
if you don't count ties, then a score of <19 might win
 
$$Q_N(A,B) = Q_{N-1}(A,B) + A_N \sum_{j=1}^{N-1} B_j$$
nvm that's right
 
I have no problem with computing Q. I am just not sure that Q[A,B)>18 is what is sought vs Q(A,B)>Q(B,A)
 
7:09 PM
$$Q_N(A,B) = \sum_{j=1}^N \sum_{i=1+1}^N A_i B_j$$
anyhow, my problem is about finding the number of sets of dice triplets with maximum potential face value N that fits all the criteria
i think Q(A,B)>18 is what they are looking for if only because the program i wrote yields 9780 -- if you did it purely by Q(A,B)>Q(B,A) I think you'd have a ton more solutions
 
probably
@tb good evening!
 
@MattN I think you need to look up what a metric space is and what a topological notion is. Both questions you suggested for metric spaces did involve (possibly) non-metric spaces and I still think the question you wanted to re-tag did not even involve a topology. You can't speak of a topology when you don't know this and if you speak of a topology you don't have to ask it. (My last word on this matter, no time for silly arguments).
@robjohn Hi, robjohn. Small browser hickup, didn't intend to leave immediately again...
 
@tb I was thinking of engaging you in a silly argument ;-p
2
 
run away!
 
@robjohn Anyhow I have the counting function f() and I am modeling it based off of the recursive definition of Q. However, my function seems to yield a lot more values than it should
 
7:17 PM
look at the bones
@AOAOne I thought you said it gave the correct count in their example. Why do you say it gives too many?
 
my brute force program did
I am trying to write a more intelligent dynamic programming solution to solve the N=30 case
the brute force solution is fine for low N but would take years to run for N=30
 
@robjohn go on, Bors, chop his head off!
 
well when I run F(5,19,19,19,6,6,6) it gives many thousands in terms of count
where there are only 581 valid solutions for N=5
 
right! one rabbit stew, coming up!
 
I warned you, but did you listen to me? No... It's just a harmless little rabbit, isn't it?
 
7:21 PM
bring out the holy hand grenade!
 
LOL
 
I give up... :) But I'm enjoying the scene...
 
@tb 'tis one of the sacred relics that Brother Maynard carries with him :-)
In any case, I really need to answer some questions.
I need exactly 30 points.
 
@robjohn yeah :) but I couldn't for the life of me reproduce the usage instructions from memory...
 
1... 2... 5.
 
7:27 PM
three Sir!
 
3
5 shall be right out!
 
:)
@robjohn Oh, now I get it, that'd be nice, but you shall have to earn it :)
 
@tb that is why I said I need to answer some questions :-)
 
@tb The metric-spaces retag was (obviously) (an attempt at) humour. As for topological "notion": no, indeed I've not heard that one before but I think "notion" is synonym for thingamajig. And as for the other retag: it involved a metric space (if I remember correctly) hence a topology. (I can't just sit by while being accused of having to look up what a metric space is. (Even if you star robjohn's comment.))
But good to see you : )
 
7:44 PM
thanks anyway robjohn
 
*) that should've said "retag suggestion in the comment"
 
8:30 PM
Vote for calls. (One more.)
 
@robjohn I found a good link here that clears up the 48/2(9+3) ambiguity, what do you think?
 
I am a strong supporter of calls, so of course.
 
@skullpatrol There is no ambiguity unless one doesn't really know the rules of precedence.
@HenningMakholm So that's a +1 for calls then?
 
Sure, as soon as I find the button.
 
@HenningMakholm how do you feel about margin calls vs telephone calls vs bird calls?
 
8:35 PM
vs cat calls
 
@skullpatrol that too
 
Definitely in favor of bird calls. Telephone calls depend on whether I'm the caller. Margin calls ... depend on whether we're going to have a derivatives market at all.
 
i work in finance... it's pretty dry
 
8:51 PM
So what do you think about margin calls?
 
sucks
i don't really deal with those though
 
trading is a funny thing
a lot of the underlying logic is fairly obvious stuff
what makes it difficult is reigning in greed
thankfully that's what risk parameters are for <3
nobody wants to pull another nick leeson
 
got bumped while I was answering a question. One that @Henning also answered :-) The one with the artistic diagram.
 
WOOHOO my program works, but it's still slow
just have to find a way to modularize/memoize
 
9:04 PM
@AOAOne congratulations.
 
Is it possible to define a bijection between $\mathbb{Z}$ and the set $\{0\}\cup\{1,\frac{1}{2},\frac{1}{3},\ldots\}$ ?
 
@skullpatrol that's good :-)
 
it still takes way, way too long to run
 
@robjohn Thanx
 
Whee, I'm at 23456!
 
9:06 PM
@robjohn: taa-daa! :)
 
I have the page recorded for 12345 as well :-)
 
@DavidK Yes.
For example, map 0 to 0, $a$ to $\frac 1{2a}$ and $-a$ to $\frac 1{2a-1}$.
 
9:23 PM
@HenningMakholm Yes. Thanks!
 
@HenningMakholm I'm quite sure there is a question about this...
 
@tb tee-dee! :-)
I removed the fields not visible in yours
@HenningMakholm ah, I was just typing that in but with the +a and -a reversed.
 
@MattN Surely. But it is quicker just to answer than to dig it up.
 
@MattN So David K gets some free points? and Henning does a bit more work ;-)
 
@HenningMakholm Of course, I didn't mean to imply otherwise. : )
@robjohn : )
 
9:31 PM
@robjohn Free points? Where?
 
@HenningMakholm If, as MattN says, there is a question like that, your answer could be used there :-)
 
@robjohn the question asks for a homeomorphism, iirc.
 
@robjohn I'm sure if there is a question about that, it has already been anwered.
 
@HenningMakholm Yeah, but a new answer might get some points. Just like my answer to the $\tan(3x)$ question :-)
 
user19161
@robjohn Congrats!
 
9:35 PM
@JasperLoy thanks! I was hoping I wouldn't get an acceptance to throw off the 5/10 phase.
Getting 23461 would miss 23456
 
I misremembered. This is what I was thinking of.
 
I guess I could have waited a bit and deleted an old answer
 
@robjohn But that won't help the 5/10 phase (since you cannot delete an accepted answer). Instead you should keep a vaguely-interesting question with an odd number of votes around for these occurrences.
 
@HenningMakholm I didn' t realize that about accepted answers. I would have been more worried.
 
What I need now is four upvotes here. Then my number of bronze badges will be the product of my number of gold badges and my number of silver badges.
 
user19161
9:43 PM
@HenningMakholm I should have known better that the people here look out for patterns like that!
 
Anything to break the tedium of doing people's homework for them :-)
 
@HenningMakholm already upvoted it. Sorry, I can't help there.
 
@HenningMakholm Done. : )
 
Later I discovered that one can find lots of disparate proposals by googling for "parabolic cosine".
 
9:54 PM
Can anyone explain why $\vec{E} \cdot \mathrm{d}\vec{A} = E \mathrm{d}A$ if and only if $E \,\| \,A$ ? =)
 
Night everyone.
 
@MattN G'night sleep tight =)
 

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