The Bridge

GnomeSlice

19:01

10 mins ago, by OrigamiRobot

@GnomeSlice For whatever reason I decided to click both those links. I have learned from my mistakes.

'mistakes'

Hah, whatever.

OrigamiRobot

Yes, my mistakes. How does that imply your fault?

GnomeSlice

@OrigamiRobot Becasuuuseeeeee

FAE

19:12

@AshleyNunn I have never heard of anything like that over there, neither has Jochem. He said they don't really do bologna as bologna so much there.

user15026

@FAE That was sorta what I figured. Silly bologna people.

GnomeSlice

I don't get all the media furiority over sexism in gaming. Everyone needs to chill out and discuss it like adults...

Fuck, it's so hard to find comments on any article that don't degenerate into name-calling.

user15026

@GnomeSlice Considering the subject matter, that is unlikely.

GnomeSlice

@AshleyNunn Yeah, that's the problem. =[

user15026

@GnomeSlice Well aware.

GnomeSlice

19:19

Everyone is so up-in-arms every time it comes up it turns into 'boys vs girls'.

It's just stupid.

There are some mature comments here: gamefront.com/sexism-in-gaming-5-reasons-its-a-thing

Until you get partway down.

user15026

It's really the nature of any online discussion about any strongly divided topic.

GnomeSlice

@AshleyNunn That I agree with but this particular topic seems to be... I don't know, cursed.

fbueckert

@GnomeSlice It's simple to see why.

There are those that have privileged positions, despite their incompetence, who will ensure that the status quo stays the way it is.

user15026

@GnomeSlice Eh, same could be said for any -ism topic. (racism, sexism, etc, etc, etc). If you are interested, though, there are some cool articles here that you should read. It mostly deals with inclusion in SF/F, but the points are still valid.

Jin

well, girls get better looking armors in rpgs...

Ronan Forman

19:24

@Jin I so hope that's a joke.

GnomeSlice

Jun 18 at 0:22, by ickleislands

All the girls have back breakingly oversized proportions and all the men have been hit by trucks repeatedly

Jin

@RonanForman male mesmers in GW2 look ridiculous!

speaking of gw2, i've started my project of making my mesmer to look like my shadowpriest in wow

Ronan Forman

@Jin No, I agree with your statement, but the fact that the female armour is like that is sexist.

Jin

found the right shoulders lastnight

OrigamiRobot

@fbueckert And the attempts to "even the playing field" are only making things worse.

badp

19:25

@agent86 Sure. That leaves me with no battery for the other guy.

Jin

@RonanForman well yes

►

fbueckert

@OrigamiRobot Depends on the attempts.

If people are sitting down and having a rational discussion, that sounds reasonable.

badp

(No, I don't have the two-birds-one-Q skill. I only have received 1 praxis point so far. It was spent on Hacking Capture 2.)

fbueckert

If you have one side screaming their head off and refusing to even articulate an argument, then that makes it worse.

agent86

@badp hide for a minute, wuss!

badp

19:26

@agent86 HE'S LIKE, RIGHT NEXT TO THE OTHER GUY.

agent86

that looks like missing link, and I did that one with no praxis kits

user15026

@fbueckert And that is generally what online "discussions" devolve into.

GnomeSlice

@fbueckert This is my point, I don't think it's as black and white as 'everything needs to change' vs' everything needs to stay the same'. But that's all anyone seems to talk about.

So maybe it's just me.

agent86

@badp then just wait for one dude to patrol off and drag the guy's body out of the way

jeez do I have to walk you through every single step of silently murdering people?

OrigamiRobot

Sep 11 at 16:42, by OrigamiRobot

I will never understand how people think simply giving the unprivileged different privileges is the right way to do things.

agent86

19:27

step 1: SMACKDOWN step 2: repeat step 1

badp

@agent86 I know how to press Q :P

agent86

I think in both of those long hallways you can stack a nearby box and jump up to the upper area pretty easily

(if you're doing the thing I think you were doing)

fbueckert

@AshleyNunn And honestly, most guys really don't see anything wrong with how the world works. They don't see the problem at all.

badp

@agent86 . . .that's not something I had thought of.

fbueckert

And probably don't want to, even if it's brought to their attention.

user15026

19:28

@fbueckert It's the privilege thing again. Gets you every time.

GnomeSlice

In theory this is a very sound article however not all sexism is created equal. Two of your points are simple overreactions to a stupid thing.

Take Duke Nukem for example, Duke is like your 90 year old grandpa. Think about what life was like 90 years ago, its the early 1920′s social life was a very different thing back then. The Feminist movement has either just started or is just about to get started. Minorities wont have their rights recognized for another 30 or 40 years and this is the environment your grandfather has grown up in. So fast forward to today and he is a bit sexist and very…

agent86

1 min ago, by agent86

jeez do I have to walk you through every single step of silently murdering people?

GnomeSlice

That's a pretty good comment, actually.

agent86

:P

GnomeSlice

> There needs to be a balance between indignation and outrage.

^ That I agree with.

agent86

19:29

@badp just be careful up there, there are openings in the "tunnel" where you can be seen

but mostly you can solve it just by knocking out the guy patrolling, and then moving up alongside the other guy once your battery charges

you can also exploit their terrible vision by opening a nearby door, and then hiding right next to it, they'll either walk through the door and not notice you, or they'll check the door without walking through it and then turn around and face away from the door. either way, naptime.

the whole DLC isn't that bad with no kills, no alarms, and no praxis.

and no guns, I guess

fbueckert

@AshleyNunn Which is why, unfortunately, unless there's a drastic upheaval somehow, it will take a ton of time to rectify the situation.

user15026

@fbueckert a ton of time, and more people willing to actuially change.

fbueckert

@AshleyNunn I bet if we get a female Prime Minister/President, that will shove this forward at breakneck speed.

user15026

@fbueckert Ideally, but there is a lot even they can't change - you cant force attitudes to change.

fbueckert

@AshleyNunn No, you can't force a change. I didn't mean shoving it forward via legislation, but by being a role model.

user15026

19:38

@fbueckert Ah, yeah, that might have a chance of helping somewhat.

fbueckert

If anything, showing that a female is in the highest position available in a country is a public demonstration that males and females are equal. And should be treated as such.

And four years serving as a role model will do much to erode all this, "Well, you're a girl, so your opinion doesn't matter" crap.

GnomeSlice

Why does no one complain about the lack of female film action heroes but a lot of people are annoyed at the fact that there are many more male video game heroes than female?

FAE

@GnomeSlice There's a lot of stuff wrong in that comment that does not make it good, like trying to define "gamer", dismissing criticism by calling it "overreaction", and completely missing the fact that Duke Nukem can't be compared to someone's 90 year old grandpa at all because he isn't real and there are people who wrote him to act like that.

GnomeSlice

Argh, I'm going to go do something simple.

FAE

@GnomeSlice They do complain.

James

19:41

GnomeSlice

@FAE I don't really think Duke Nukem has a place in these arguments at all, to be honest, he's designed to be vulgar, sexist, offensive, etc.

fbueckert

@GnomeSlice Publishers (ie. the people with the money) don't really support female protagonists very well.

user15026

@fbueckert This.

GnomeSlice

@fbueckert Okay, but most action movie heroes are male as well.

user15026

@James This sums up everything about my day.

user15026

19:42

@GnomeSlice Same thing.

fbueckert

@GnomeSlice You know why? Superhero fantasies.

Ronan Forman

@GnomeSlice That doesn't make it less sexist/vulgar.

James

@AshleyNunn Same, I am in love with this.. going to go out and buy an actual grave plot so Ic an make it exist

GnomeSlice

My point was that I haven't heard anyone complaining about that.

user15026

@GnomeSlice So does his being designed that way make it acceptale?

GnomeSlice

19:42

@James This is amazing.

fbueckert

Notice how every female "sidekick"/supporting actor/major role is smoking hot.

user15026

@James Best plan ever. I highly approve.

GnomeSlice

@AshleyNunn Depends on your point of view I guess. Judging from the media, they did a good job of making him as offensive as possible.

user15026

@GnomeSlice Then you just are in the wrong places to hear about it.

FAE

@GnomeSlice Just because you don't hear it, does not mean it doesn't exist. It's definitely something that is discussed as problematic.

user15026

19:42

@GnomeSlice But does that make it okay?

GnomeSlice

@AshleyNunn This is probably true.

James

@fbueckert More like most female protagonists do not draw in the dollars from the female market as well as male protagonists do from the male market.

fbueckert

@James That, too. Unfortunately, the major gamer market is very male dominated.

FAE

@James Source?

GnomeSlice

@AshleyNunn At risk of being labelled as a bad person, I say yes. The rating on the box should be indication enough for people who may be offended by it.

user15026

19:44

@GnomeSlice I have no response to this other than frantic keyboard bashing with my face, so I am just going to go back to writing my CanLit paper.

James

@FAE Years of school studying the gaming market and why it is targeted the way it is and publishers spending tons o cash on research in how to attract the female gamers ??

GnomeSlice

@James If you're measuring game sales based on the gender of the protagonist, you're doing it wrong. That's a terrible way to look at it.

@AshleyNunn =[ It didn't come out quite right.

fbueckert

And since most guys associate female leads with, "Is she going to cry now?" or other stupid objectifications, they're much less likely to buy a game with a female lead.

James

@GnomeSlice I do not measure anything, I am not an analyst.

GnomeSlice

@fbueckert Source?

FAE

19:45

Because that gets brought up by people as a general assumption, when people seem to forget that when there is already a vacuum of it, it's harder to spend money on it.

fbueckert

@GnomeSlice Think about it, dude.

GnomeSlice

Look at games like Bayonetta, or Mirror's Edge, or any of the Metroid games, or Tomb Raider.

James

@GnomeSlice @FAE When the hell did this become Wikipedia?

GnomeSlice

I can't imagine any of those leads crying.

user15026

@GnomeSlice Look at most of those women. What's their draw?

James

19:45

@GnomeSlice Look at how sexualized those characters are, they are aimed at Male Audience

fbueckert

@GnomeSlice You don't even see the girl in Mirror's Edge or Metroid.

GnomeSlice

@AshleyNunn Sex appeal. How are men any different?

user15026

@GnomeSlice I don't get your question.

fbueckert

Also: penny-arcade.com/report/editorial-article/…

James

@GnomeSlice It is specifically those types of characters that are often cited as to why girl gamers are more rare.

GnomeSlice

19:46

@fbueckert Yeah you do. You see the Mirror's Edge heroine in the cutscenes, and in Metriod: the Other M, there's a ton of backstory and scenes about Samus.

fbueckert

@GnomeSlice And you know how much people HATED Other M?

All because she talked.

GnomeSlice

@fbueckert I thought it was fantastic.

fbueckert

And had feelings.

@GnomeSlice I agree. It was quite good.

user15026

@fbueckert How dare she be a developed female.

2

fbueckert

But guys want their heroes to be badasses, that kick ass and cause explosions.

GnomeSlice

19:47

@fbueckert I heard they thought about making a half life movie, but scrubbed it because they wouldn't be able to please all of the fans once Gordon started speaking.

FAE

@James I tend to think it's disrespectful to the subject matter to accept generalizations without questioning them is all, as it's a subject where people often throw around many sweeping "Well, it seems like it's this way so just deal with it" type generalizations is all.

fbueckert

@AshleyNunn Yeah, I know.

GnomeSlice

@AshleyNunn I'm not sure why but this is making me giggle uncontrollably.

It sounds so silly when you put it that way.

fbueckert

@GnomeSlice Actually, it sounds realistic.

user15026

@GnomeSlice I assume it is the word "developed" that is getting you.

FAE

19:48

@fbueckert It was less because she talked and more because stuff like she all of a sudden turned maternal and required validation from a male character about her "femininity" and stuff.

James

@FAE K, just cite me then :)

user15026

@FAE oh, male validation? really? icksauce.

fbueckert

@FAE I didn't read it like that at all, when I was playing.

GnomeSlice

I still think that people are looking at it way too closely. Maybe it's just me, but I don't really care what the gender of the hero is if the game is good.

fbueckert

@GnomeSlice Name a typical male hero.

GnomeSlice

19:49

@fbueckert Errr

fbueckert

@GnomeSlice And what does he do?

FAE

@fbueckert If I may so, this may have been because of your coming from a different perspective.

GnomeSlice

@fbueckert Jump on heads... save the princess...

lol

fbueckert

@FAE That could very well be.

@GnomeSlice And what does that relegate the female of the story to?

An object to be rescued.

GnomeSlice

@fbueckert Damsel in Distress.

fbueckert

19:50

@GnomeSlice Now name a female hero.

GnomeSlice

Well, depends on the Game.

Peach is fucking amazing in Mario Kart DS

@fbueckert Lara Croft.

Lazers

0

Q: Horrible bug where I can't use a soldier, what is the cause and is there a work around?

So I'll be playing my missions as normal and seemingly at random my sniper will lose all abilities except for grapple and hunker down. When I click on those abilities get the "unh-unh" sound and I can't actually use them either. He has his sniper rifle out but there isn't a currently selected gun...

xcom-enemy-unknown

0

Q: Is there a site/community/portal where one can rate and mark games he completed, owns, etc?

Preferably bigger or well known site, not like 500 users.

single-player

OrigamiRobot

@GnomeSlice That was the worst example you could've chosen

GnomeSlice

@OrigamiRobot No, Bayonetta is.

fbueckert

@OrigamiRobot It's like shooting fish in a barrel!

FAE

19:52

@James It wasn't my intention to offend you, and if I did so, I apologize. It's just that as I said, that particular kind of statement is often thrown around in order to dismiss these types of concerns, so I wanted to see where you were coming from.

GnomeSlice

Her clothes are made from her hair and she attacks by removing them.

OrigamiRobot

@GnomeSlice I was gonna say, "Except maybe Bayonetta" but I dont know anything about that game

fbueckert

But regardless. Lara Croft is the MOST objectified female game character. Ever.

GnomeSlice

Lara Croft runs around shooting bad dudes and snatching treasure.

@fbueckert I coudl argue for a while, but I won't.

Samus Aran.

user15026

@GnomeSlice And is known for her huge chest.

fbueckert

19:53

@GnomeSlice And how often do you SEE Samus?

GnomeSlice

@AshleyNunn That is certainly true. So?

user15026

@GnomeSlice More often than not, completely desexualized.

GnomeSlice

@fbueckert All the time, she's just in a suit.

user15026

@GnomeSlice Never mind. Not going to have this arguement.

fbueckert

@GnomeSlice ...You know what? You're totally missing the point.

GnomeSlice

19:53

@AshleyNunn What I meant was that guys like the dude from God of War are known for huge muscles...

fbueckert

So I'm done with this.

GnomeSlice

@fbueckert She speaks a lot in Metriod Fusion.

And in Other M

FAE

@GnomeSlice This is a different type of objectification. Power fantasy vs. Sexual fantasy.

user15026

@FAE This.

GnomeSlice

@FAE That's a fair point. Both of those are targetted at men.

FAE

19:54

Male characters aren't sexualized for the female gaze, whereas female characters are for the male gaze.

James

@FAE No offense was taken in the long run.. I understand and encourage cynicism :D I am however working daily to try and prove that asking people in the academic world for a source or citation is the polite way of calling them a liar :)

GnomeSlice

@FAE What would an eye-candy male look like?

I ask because I have no idea.

fbueckert

Although, there's a bit of double-standard going on in the other direction, unrelated to games.

FAE

@James I tend feel that asking someone to back up generalizations is less harmful than blindly accepting said generalizations as true.

@GnomeSlice Depends on who you ask, but Western society tends to focus on stereotypically masculine qualities, like exaggerated musculature, machismo, etc.

James

@FAE Agreed, again, I understand and encourage cynicism :)

GnomeSlice

19:57

@FAE So... the dude from God of War?

fredley

@James I read this as "How do you organize a space party, you planet?"

GnomeSlice

So what makes it a power fantasy for men and not eye candy for women?

James

@fredley Hehe, No ? at the end :)

fbueckert

@GnomeSlice Because that many muscles aren't sexy at all?

GnomeSlice

Maybe I'm just incapable of forming a smart sounding argument on this subject because I like boobs so much.

user15026

19:58

@fbueckert This.

fbueckert

If anything, it's kinda gross.

GnomeSlice

1 min ago, by FAE

@GnomeSlice Depends on who you ask, but Western society tends to focus on stereotypically masculine qualities, like exaggerated musculature, machismo, etc.

fredley

@James How do you organize a space party, you planet!

fbueckert

@GnomeSlice Power fantasies take those typical male qualities, and crank it up to 11.

FAE

@James Gotcha, I think we're on the same page then. :)

fbueckert

19:59

At which point, it's no longer eye candy, I'd say.

James

@GnomeSlice i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/001/582/…

fbueckert

Not that I'm a very good judge of what constitutes male eye candy. :P

user15026

@fbueckert I'd agree with you.

fredley

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