The Bridge

fbueckert

23:00

@ArdaXi I think you misconstrued what I'm saying.

Arda Xi

Then what was your point?

fbueckert

I wasn't the first to go, "Lore questions are stupid".

Arda Xi

@fbueckert To my knowledge, you are.

James

Honestly @fbueckert I think its time to post a meta on the topic.. We have certainly distilled the base points of both sides to the point where the question could be posted and each side could voice up and then voting could happen.

fbueckert

@ArdaXi Oh, I'm not.

Arda Xi

23:01

And even if you weren't, we've allowed them for 2 years, and it has never posed a problem.

Why would it suddenly be a problem now?

James

@ArdaXi Same reason ITG questions are gone man (despite me missing them). The community shifts as to what they are or are not willing to deal with.. That is what a meta post would solve here

Arda Xi

@James That's not the point.

Raven Dreamer

@ArdaXi It was Mark Trapp, I think.

Arda Xi

I didn't ask why we should moderate them.

I'm asking why they would suddenly be a problem.

James

End of the day we -can not- change how the site works in chat here.. It has to go to Meta, it has to be vetted and it has to be voted on.

Arda Xi

23:02

Why should the community shift?

fbueckert

@ArdaXi I don't think it's suddenly a problem; I think they've been a point of contention for a while now.

GnomeSlice

@Raven whyd you ruin my meta

Arda Xi

@James The ITG debate happened mostly in chat before we shifted to meta.

@fbueckert Evidenced by...?

fbueckert

@ArdaXi The amount of discussion and whatnot that happens whenever we run into a new one?

Like this exact conversation?

James

@ArdaXi Dunno. In the two years I have been here the community has refined their focus from anything game related to FAQ style 'How do I accomplish this' type of questions.. maybe in that refinement lore questions go over to SciFi

Arda Xi

23:04

Let's make a specific example. I'm fairly sure that this question alone has introduced quite a couple of new users to this site.

141

Q: Where is the "impossible space" in Portal 2?

One of the commentary nodes by a Portal 2 developer, Eric Tams, said they used "world portals" to quickly reconfigure maps and puzzles during testing, which allowed them to create rooms that were bigger on the inside, infinite falls, and other sorts of impossible geometry, save for the users own ...

portal-2

If your policy came through, it should have been closed instead.

James

But that is not for me to decide.

Arda Xi

Why is that a good thing?

Why would it be good for the second most upvoted question on our site to be closed?

Is the point of moderation to uphold site policy to the letter, or to keep the site healthy and popular?

fbueckert

@ArdaXi As a sidenote, that's not a lore question.

GnomeSlice

I'm out of smart things to say, so I'll let Arda continue. x_x

James

@ArdaXi I know I was a very loud supporter of ITG way back when.. I am just suggesting we have enough to go on for the Lore stuff to start a meta on it?

fbueckert

23:05

It has nothing to do with story whatsoever.

Arda Xi

@fbueckert It's also not a question that doesn't solve a problem.

Brian

@James yes 1000x yes

Arda Xi

It has no bearing on the game at all, only on the developer commentary.

fbueckert

@ArdaXi That's true.

Arda Xi

@fbueckert So according to what you've said before, it should be closed.

fbueckert

23:06

But for some reason, it falls into the acceptable category for me.

I'm still trying to figure out why.

Arda Xi

@fbueckert Now you're just being inconsistent.

GnomeSlice

Psst. 'How much time has passed between portal games?"

Arda Xi

@fbueckert Which, again, leads me to believe you want to close lore questions because you dislike lore questions, not because you care about the health of the site.

fbueckert

@ArdaXi Yeah, I know. I'm trying to figure out why I feel that's acceptable.

Arda Xi

Moderation should be supported by site policy, not determined by site policy.

fbueckert

23:07

@ArdaXi Actually, I like learning more about the story in a game.

GnomeSlice

._.

Arda Xi

As in, you should be able to justify your moderation by pointing to policy, but you shouldn't look at a question, look at the site policy, and moderate it only because it's not allowed under them.

fbueckert

But I don't see how learning whether or not Darth Vader is a pig or bird, or if Harbinger has three or four legs adds anything but trivia.

Brian

Question is getting like an edit a second!

Arda Xi

@fbueckert And I don't see how it hurts anything.

I don't see why the health of the site would be improved if it were closed.

James

23:09

@fbueckert Yeah but neither does knowing which room isnt really connected in the portal game.

fbueckert

@James Still trying to figure that one out, dude, bear with me. :)

James

@fbueckert Just trying to help match the points between the two man :)

Arda Xi

@fbueckert Then may I suggest you stop discussing this and we keep lore questions at least until you figure it out?

You clearly don't understand why you don't like lore questions, only that you don't like lore questions.

James

@fbueckert Might even be easier if you can say what you dont like about the vader one and we can look in the portal one and see if its in there then they can be compared at that level and constantly worked down.

Who knows, it might come down to having a quoted source for the answer and a screen shot of vader's piggy tail or feather tail would make the whole thing more complete and acceptable to you.

fbueckert

@ArdaXi Alright, I'm good with that.

If I do manage to figure it out, I'll post a meta on it, and let the community decide how it goes.

Arda Xi

23:13

@fbueckert Sounds good.

James

There, and with that final star I think we actually just used the starring feature properly to highlight this conversation :D

fbueckert

@ArdaXi Also, damn, man. You know how to argue. :)

James

as opposed to starring when people :( or do some amusing RAGE ;D

Arda Xi

@fbueckert Heh, you should've seen me back when I was really active here. Arguments all the time.

Brian

@ArdaXi scared off @fbueckert ~_~

Arda Xi

23:14

@fbueckert You're pretty good yourself.

fbueckert

@Brian No, not scared off.

Arda Xi

I really have missed this.

Raven Dreamer

@GnomeSlice Because flashing has nothing to do with Tourettes

fbueckert

More, "I don't like it, and I don't know why"

Brian

Go open a meta i have a good answer to post haha

Arda Xi

23:14

I am never leaving this place again. I needs to get my debate on.

fbueckert

@ArdaXi Arguing with you gives me more experience in how to make my points better.

Or in general, for that matter.

Arda Xi

Yep, that's mostly the reason I liked it so much here. Lots of intelligent people to argue with.

fbueckert

Even if we do disagree. :P

James

@RavenDreamer I had to go find that meta cause of this post :D

@fbueckert @ArdaXi Remember, in a real debate its not each other you need to convince, but everyone else who casts their vote :) Also note that it is easier to win by discrediting your opponent as opposed to proving your own points because if your opponent is discredited, then your side must be right!

Brian

Lets say I google is darth vader a pig or a bird, i get our site, I see an answer without any concrete evidence, 4 options 1) sweet an answer thanks Arq leaves forever, 2) sweet an answer thanks Arq let me ask questions similarly and eventually veer to the point of asking questions not appropriate for our site.

fbueckert

23:17

@James Eh, ad hominem arguments mean there are fundamental flaws in your argument.

Brian

3) sweet an answer thanks Arq let me browse more questions and refine my knowledge on how questions could be then ask a valid question. 4) why is there an answer here without any proof of an answer, screw this site i'm never coming back. See how only 1/4 is beneficial to the site?

James

So I expect some dirty name calling and in depth history check work for next time :)

Raven Dreamer

@James noooo, I'm pretty sure in a real debate, you convince each other.

Arda Xi

@James Oh, I know. I do competitive debating.

Brian

sorry i wanted to get it out so i could have it for later :)

Arda Xi

23:18

@RavenDreamer In a real debate, you convince the jury.

James

Haha.. Satire guys.. Satire :D

Brian

@fbueckert damn you for splitting my posts

Arda Xi

@Brian That... isn't really an argument at all.

Brian

@ArdaXi it is a perfectly valid arguement

Arda Xi

@Brian No, it isn't. It assumes, first of all, that all four groups are equal.

Second, it assumes that there is no concrete evidence.

Third, 2) is also beneficial to the site.

James

23:19

@Brian It also assumes there are only four groups and they all end with finding the answer on our site.

Arda Xi

A false... quadrotomy?

Brian

@James assuming they find the answer on our site

James

@ArdaXi That sounds dirty man.

Arda Xi

It's a false polychotomy.

Damn guys. Now you got me all riled up right before I'm supposed to go to sleep.

James

@Brian Then your results are wrong.. if my own experience is anything to go by.. But it went along the lines of finding enough answers on the site to start going to the site to look for answers.. I did not join up just because it had One of my answers.. I think after the 10th or so Minecraft question answered here I signed up to start asking my own questions

fbueckert

23:22

As a sidenote, I think this controversey about lore questions helps polish them up to the point that they're no longer on a slippery slope.

Arda Xi

@James That's how I originally discovered SO as well.

James

And it was because the answers made sense and worked, not because they came from some officially quoted source.

Arda Xi

@fbueckert Err?

fbueckert

@ArdaXi Think about it.

Arda Xi

@fbueckert Slippery slope is a type of argument, not a type of question.

fbueckert

23:23

That Harbinger one, especially.

Arda Xi

So I literally have no idea what you're talking about.

Slippery slope

In debate or rhetoric, a slippery slope (also known as thin end of the wedge - or sometimes "edge" in US English - or the camel's nose) is a classic form of argument, arguably an informal fallacy. A slippery slope argument states that a relatively small first step leads to a chain of related events culminating in some significant effect, much like an object given a small push over the edge of a slope sliding all the way to the bottom. The strength of such an argument depends on the warrant, i.e. whether or not one can demonstrate a process which leads to the significant effect. The falla...

fbueckert

@ArdaXi The way I see it, these questions generate lots of discussion and argument, especially here in chat.

Arda Xi

@fbueckert Even so, that doesn't mean anything.

fbueckert

And by discussing it, it gets a lot more attention than it normally would. Which means those that support keeping it around add to the question to make it better.

Lazers

0

Q: Does the Frying Pan actually cause knockback?

Using the Frying Pan as a melee weapon is definitely one of the high points TF2 has. But one thing I'm curious is the fact that everytime I hit someone, they seemed to be knocked into the air. Even though it is a stock weapon reskin, and its description does not show any advantages over standar...

team-fortress-2

Arda Xi

23:25

@fbueckert What does that have to do with the slippery slope?

James

Yes! Its raining!

fbueckert

@ArdaXi The point of a slippery slope argument is that quality degrades over time, yes?

Brian

because I'd like to see the lore issue die i'm not going to explain my previous comment anymore hah

Arda Xi

I'll be the first to talk about the benefits of debates to the site.

@fbueckert No, it's that one small thing leads to another, then to another, and then utter despair.

James

Ahhhh

One of the few times the air is clean in LA :)

fbueckert

23:26

@ArdaXi Ok, so I should explain it a bit better, then.

Wipqozn

►

Brian

@ArdaXi one bad lore question could lead to even worse lore questions and then we'll getting things completely off-topic, as is my scenario 2 previously

James

@fbueckert Can I give it a try?

I think I understand what ya meant

Arda Xi

@Brian This is the slippery slope argument. As debunked by 2 years of history.

fbueckert

@James Knock yourself out.

James

23:27

A lot of example questions were used in the debate that just took place

By forcing more attention on the questions that sparked the debate they get refined to be acceptable

So we avoid getting into a slippery slope position because we are making questions that will be used as examples later on get more polish to them.

Arda Xi

Well, that's good, innit?

fbueckert

@ArdaXi Yeah, it is.

@James summed it up well.

Arda Xi

Like I said, debate is definitely beneficial.

fbueckert

But that's why we haven't had a slippery slope.

Because we freak the hell out whenever we get a lore quesiton.

Arda Xi

@fbueckert Except we haven't until recently.

GnomeSlice

23:30

About the 'invisible space' question:

Wipqozn

To be honest I don't lore questions are as controversial as you're making them out to be @fbueckert, it's just the same people complaining about them again, and again.

fbueckert

@ArdaXi I only joined around March; I don't know what happened before that.

Arda Xi

@fbueckert If it could happen with lore questions, then why hasn't it already?

badp

Okay, fire shock shields kick ass. Too many things at this point in the game go for melee attacks

Arda Xi

@fbueckert I've been here... well, as long as the site.

Wipqozn

23:31

@badp It's a good thing I have you on Steam. It helps add context to the messages you leave.

fbueckert

@Wipqozn They may not be.

James

So, who here is as excited as I am about ESO and wants the beta to exist NOAW! ?? :)

GnomeSlice

i.e. It's not completely out of the blue

I suspect the reason you like that one is because the 'invisible space' is something explicitly mentioned in the game or a trailer or whatever it was.

Arda Xi

@GnomeSlice Developer commentary.

Brian

@ArdaXi perhaps the reason why you haven't seen the slippery slope is that forces have been working to prevent it

badp

23:33

@Wipqozn IT's mostly my fault for not playing games as they're released

fbueckert

But, hey. For now, I'm done with lore.

Arda Xi

@Brian There haven't, though.

fbueckert

Still mulling over why I don't like them.

Arda Xi

Up until March, I've been in the Bridge practically every day since it was created.

Brian

Arguing that something is true because it hasn't happened recently is also a fallacy right? ;)

Arda Xi

23:34

@Brian It's not fallacious to say that something is unlikely to happen if it hasn't before.

Impossible would be fallacious. Unlikely isn't.

badp

depends on how long "before" is

fbueckert

Also, while I'm on the hate binge, I hate technical issues questions, too. :P

Powerlord

Best site ever: whitepeoplemourningromney.tumblr.com

badp

@Powerlord I can sympathize in general with people being sad for elections not going their way

Arda Xi

@fbueckert Talk about inconsistent. ;)

fbueckert

23:36

@ArdaXi Not really; they're two entirely different categories. :P

The only relation is that I don't like 'em.

But I've caused enough discussion for the moment.

Arda Xi

@fbueckert Fun fact, I actually liked ITG. But I still closed the questions.

badp

...so long as "elections not going their way" doesn't imply doom for Humanity, or any involvement with deities whatsoever

Powerlord

@badp That's why these are funny, because a lot of them are implying directly that or involve people overreacting in... interesting ways.

fbueckert

@ArdaXi I'm done arguing for now. :) You can go rest easy.

Arda Xi

@fbueckert I never am. Sorry.

agent86

23:46

@Wipqozn nemesis!

badp

ONE MINUTE THIRTY TWO SECONDS cmon

the first time limited mission in BL2 is kind of awful

Oh look, "When Grandpa Burps, Patrick Obeys" is actually in the game

I thought it was a crappy mnemonic made up by that guy

Out of curiosity would this still be closed by today's standards? Honest question

7

Q: What is the simplest way to re-encode Fraps recordings to something more sensible?

I took a quick FRAPS recording showing this clever answer at work. The output was a 54 seconds long 424×240 video for a mere 138 MBs, or 45 minutes of upload on my link. Now, as long as the video takes a reasonable amount of time to upload, I'm fine with just getting the process done in backgro...

recording

Just got the popular question badge for it, which is silly

Transcript for