The Bridge

user15026

23:00

@RavenDreamer No worries :) Whenever you get to it is fine :)

user15026

@MarkTrapp reads that Are you KIDDING ME?

user15026

That...just...no. NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO

user2334

I think Gaming should replicate /b/ so therefore image-thread is allowed

4

user15026

That would go over so very, very well.

Wipqozn

@MarkTrapp brb, making a meta

Personally, I think @MarkTrapp should be declared supreme overlord of SFF so he can make the site not terrible.

badp

23:07

@MarkTrapp was SFF the site you were a mod of?

Wipqozn

@badp and programmers

user15026

@Wipqozn I fail to see how this could be anything but an awesome plan.

user2334

@Wipqozn If drafted, I will not run; if nominated, I will not accept; if elected, I will not serve

user2334

@badp mod pro temp of SciFi and Programmers, then elected mod of Programmers

badp

@Wipqozn that's moderator on hard mode

Gaming is, in comparison, relaxing

Wipqozn

23:08

@MarkTrapp Why did you step down from Programmers?

user2334

@Wipqozn a number of reasons I have yet to fully elucidate but probably could be summed up as I grew to hate how moderation is handled on SE

Wipqozn

I see, interesting.

badp

that said I'd say that in general I'd rather have us stop bitching at other SE sites in general so much :P

Wipqozn

> Hmmm, difficult. One of these sets off my troll vibe and the other one doesn't. However, one was posted by a new user while the other was posted a known and respected user of the community. I can't be sure that this doesn't influence me.

OPDFKASDFL;kafl;ASKF;SLDFKASL;DKFal;fksadlf;kasdfl;kasdf;lkasd;flAKF;LASDJFLKASD‌JF;ASDLKJ;akfjasd;fkljasdfkljsdaf;lKJAF;LKDSAFASDKFJ;ajdfas;kldfja;sdkfj438fjAKLF‌AJS;FASLKFJ298FJKLFAsjF;LKSDJ84FJAS;KLFJASKLFJSDF;KLDS;HNKJLAFH48RU4QYR8SDHF;SDFH‌438UYASDLIFjas;fs8uras

5

badp

@Wipqozn instant classic

user15026

23:13

@Wipqozn yeah that sums up my reaction nicely

SaintWacko

7\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

u7ju-----------------

Wups

badp

@SaintWacko a3e45q6ywfg

SaintWacko

That'll teach me to ignore my cat

badp

:3

user2334

hunter2

user15026

23:14

That whole answer is such a non answer that I find myself wondering why the crap he bothered

user2334

shi nevermind

SaintWacko

@MarkTrapp I see what you did there

Also, where's @GnomeSlice?

badp

@MarkTrapp to be fair I've felt (and still feel) the same way about good subjective questions on Gaming. I'm happy that's a battle "I" "won"

it's absurd to have different sites on the same topic, one for objective and the other for good subjective questions, and I'm happy Programmers grew to become its own "topic"

Wipqozn

@badp Banning good subjective would be a terrible idea.

Because <provides a list of reasons>

I'm too lazy to actually provide a list, so just pretend I did.

I'm sure you can all fill it in with good reasons.

user2334

@badp we all have our breaking points; if, say, strategy questions on Gaming were banned, I'd leave/delete my account. I don't recall you ever saying that a topic would get banned over your dead body or attacking someone for providing statistics. For all our disagreements and spats, you generally are willing to listen to counter-arguments and facts

badp

23:19

cries a small tear

user2334

U R THE WIND BENEEF MY WINGZ

badp

fuck double rainbows DIS IS DA REEL SHEET

er let's get back on track

Wipqozn

lyrics to Desperado

badp

@Wipqozn it's a terrible idea because it creates a ghetto of shit you don't want to deal with. It's a fraud: since you don't want to deal with something you just create a place for that thing so that you can ignore it and it's now somebody else's problem. In the early days Programmers was likened to a toilet or a garbage bin multiple times

user2334

ooooh oooh Witch-ay woman

badp

23:22

I forget which one

Wipqozn

@MarkTrapp yay, you got the reference

badp

It's a favorite strategy of Reddit moderators when it comes with handling "low quality content", see /r/tf2replays /r/tf2memes /r/minecraftmemes etc.

It's also complete bullshit.

user2334

@badp curtsies

user2334

DAMN YOU PASTEBOARD

badp

In other news, there apparently only is one IPv6-enabled "customer-grade" ISP in Italy and it's called, I'm not making this up, ASDASD. I've just learned about it being a thing that apparently exists.

This is because Europe completely ran out of IPv4 addresses what's now a couple months ago right?

sigh

user2334

23:28

I'm with the largest, by far, ISP in the US and they won't enable it for some time. It's not that countries or regions have run out, it's that the issuing authority ran out. ISPs can be clever with their IPv4 allocations, like expiring no longer used allocations

badp

@MarkTrapp eh, US still has a couple years left or so right?

user2334

My ISP is saying 100% IPv6 coverage by mid-2013

Arda Xi

@badp The whole IPcalypse thing was really played up.

Just because the ICANN no longer has addresses to issue doesn't mean that every issued block is used up.

user2334

@ArdaXi APNIC, not ICANN

badp

@ArdaXi okay, but the incremental price of IP addresses is going to go high much faster as you now only can get them from private entities who already have them, even if they don't use them.

Arda Xi

23:31

@MarkTrapp ICANN issues them to APNIC, right?

@badp You always only could get them from private entities.

A private person can't ask RIPE for an address.

badp

@ArdaXi Well, yeah, but the well is now empty

user2334

@ArdaXi Oh, yeah, true

badp

It's not something that's going to be a show stopper here and now, but in a few years IPv4 addresses will easily be quite expensive.

Arda Xi

@MarkTrapp Err, IANA apparently. Man, network infrastructure is complicated.

@badp No, it isn't.

badp

I mean, just look at how much do .com domains that aren't completely terrible sell for

user2334

23:33

@ArdaXi IANA is managed by ICANN, but yeah, that's more specific

Arda Xi

@badp The main authority has ran out of addresses. This has no effect on consumers at all.

It will trickle down, but only when it does will it have a non-negligible effect.

badp

@ArdaXi I'm more concerned about new businesses in the near future atm

Arda Xi

@badp Businesses haven't been able to purchase IP blocks since the dawn of the 21st century.

user2334

The squeeze is really in the Asia-Pacific region, not in places where the infrastructure is pretty much completely developed like Europe or NA where ISPs already have more than enough

badp

while it isn't awesome, customers don't really need a public IP.

Arda Xi

23:35

@badp They do, really. You can't share an IP with multiple connections.

Not unless you really want to complicate network topology.

badp

@ArdaXi As far and as little as I know, Italian ISP Fastweb users have been NATted under the same public IP for a while now. While you now can opt out of this, that's the default.

Arda Xi

@badp Interesting approach.

badp

They even got to market it as city-wide intranets just for Fastweb customers

Arda Xi

Well then. Even less cause for worry.

badp

@ArdaXi Yeah, except then you can't (say) host a Minecraft server outside your city-ISP combo bubble.

Arda Xi

23:38

@badp Which is good for businesses, because they'll sell more servers that way.

badp

(Can you tell I'm not a Fastweb customer? This is all stuff from third hand, take with a grain of salt.)

@ArdaXi Yeah, and what product will they be effectively selling you?

A public IPv4 address.

Arda Xi

In addition to the kind of resources that make a server much more bearable of course.

badp

(and a machine, or a portion thereof, connected to it)

Arda Xi

I don't think that's a bad thing, really. When a resource turns really scarce, the price has to be driven up.

badp

Yeah, except it doesn't have to be scarce when we've built an alternative where pretty much every grain of sand on Earth gets to have its own public IP :P

Arda Xi

23:41

Yes, and IPv6 will be implemented long before IPv4 scarcity becomes an actual problem.

badp

(heh, googling "grain of sand on Earth - ipv6 addresses" didn't get me a Google Calculator answer but the first result was a link to Skeptics)

@ArdaXi and that's where my worry is. As we've agreed, IPv4 just makes business sense. You get to sell more!

Why would ISPs give their customers easy access to IPv6 when that makes the IPv4 address they own much less valuable?

(yeah, okay, ISPs aren't the only entities that own ISPs)

Arda Xi

@badp Every grain of sand gets 4.5*10^29 addresses.

@badp Because ISPs don't usually sell IPs?

badp

"usually"

Arda Xi

@badp Exactly.

badp

I dunno, I agree it sounds like a conspiracy theory more than a business plan

Arda Xi

23:44

If every ISP but one implements IPv6, then that ISP is in trouble.

badp

@ArdaXi Yeah, but what's happening here is that no ISP but an extremely minor one has implemented IPv6

(for values of here equal to Italy)

Yi Jiang

I think the IETF hit the right balance with the 128 bits thing. We can fit MAC addresses in a /64 subnet, and the nanobots will only be able to devour half the planet.

Arda Xi

@badp Yes, but there is no scarcity of addresses right now.

badp

@ArdaXi Shit, Sherlock.

Arda Xi

I can get IPv6 easily even if my ISP will never support it.

Tunnels will only get more accessible over time.

badp

23:48

Teredo does work pretty effortlessly.

I don't have it installed here and now, but when I did it was quite painless and it just worked.

Arda Xi

Exactly.

(I use OpenVPN, which is less accessible, but easy to wrap.)

Fluttershy

Evening, everyone!

user2334

@badp Nearly every organization that gets an allocation of IP addresses from the regional allocators has growth that exceeds their allocations. At a certain point, the regional allocators will run out, and organizations would then be forced to purchase blocks from other companies, which would cost a lot more money than implementing IPv6. You can't hoard addresses either; all the regional allocators have provisions to reclaim unused blocks

Wipqozn

@Fluttershy No.

badp

@MarkTrapp Even if they work twice as well as they do with unused domain names, we're still fucked

Arda Xi

23:53

@badp No, it's not twice.

There are next to no restrictions on hoarding unused domain names.

There are far, far many more on hoarding unused IP addresses.

This is why we put non-profits in charge of them.

I actually know someone with RIPE who's really into IPv6, and we're going to have a couple talks on it soonish, so I should know more.

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