The Bridge

tzenes

21:03

ugh, what's the deal with this apple tv thing?

are there people out there who want this and don't have an xbox/ps3/wii?

McKay

Yeah, some guys at work are oogling it.

radp

:147200 Where are you reading about it?

tzenes

macrumors.com

its a summery from todays live webcast

McKay

gizmodo for me.

tzenes

@McKay really?

I hate gizmodo

McKay

21:04

Why hatest thou the gizmodo?

radp

Okay, I checked ars technica and it's there also

tzenes

they were at CES just turning off people's tvs

and being asses

they're like the 4chan of internet news

McKay

Hmm

I don't love them to death, I just think they're a decent source of news.

MacRumors is too much mac, and too much rumors. I want all tech news.

And I'm not such a mac fan that I want to know about all of the things that steve might be saying at his next stevenote.

radp

arstechnica.com

tzenes

or slashdot.com

radp

21:06

Although today Ars is mainly about Apple

The problem with slashdot is that it's like newspapers

You're reading tomorrow yesterday's "news"

and the articles are actually poorly written

and the links are suboptimal

Slashdot actually only is about the commentary.

McKay

yeah, I'm not a fan of slashdot, it's all old, and it frequently feels biased

radp

Slashdot sucks as a news source because, well, Slashdot is not a news source.

Slashdot is a news commenting platform. A good one, too.

Ivo Flipse

lol @tzenes, you're repeating me ;-)

tzenes

I still get more news from slashdot than any other source

it may not have the professional journalism feel of a site like ars, but its still the best source if I want to know what's going on

@Ivo where?

Ivo Flipse

in Gaming on Meta Stack Overflow Chat, Sep 1 at 18:18, by Ivo Flipse

why would I want an Apple TV without a hard drive?

crap I have to go to bed already, have to cycle to work tomorrow, so have to get up early for a change :P

Oh it's only 17 miles, not that bad

tzenes

21:17

haha

yeah, I just think that if you're a technophile you already have an Xbox/ps3/wii so you have this problem solved

unless you're a die hard Mac guy, you're not going to buy an Apple TV that you don't really need.

McKay

So, some of these guys at work have a Wii, but want HD streaming.

tzenes

he's filling a need that's already met

Doesn't the Wii have HD components?

McKay

Not really

The Wii can do 480p?

LessPop_MoreFizz

:147325 Lots of people aren't technophiles but have netflix. Most consumer facing netflix streaming devices that aren't game consoles suck. TV has a pretty huge potential market at 99bux.

tzenes

guess not

:147336 Are these the same people who are going to buy an apple tv?

LessPop_MoreFizz

21:20

:147339 THey're the market.

tzenes

If you're someone like my father (who has netflix and we bought him a wii he doesn't use), I don't think you're going to buy an apple tv

LessPop_MoreFizz

Whether they buy it? Ask me again in 3 months.

tzenes

I think the target market for new technology is the early adoptors

LessPop_MoreFizz

But based on my own experience slinging Apple stuff?

McKay

So, I think it has a good chance at non-gaming technophiles.

LessPop_MoreFizz

21:20

I'd say they are going to sell like ****ing HOTCAKES at 99 bucks.

tzenes

well maybe it does

I don't know that market very well

LessPop_MoreFizz

people are going to walk into an apple store to buy an ipod or iphone or macbook as a gift

tzenes

maybe I'm way off base here

LessPop_MoreFizz

and they are going to get shown this magical tiny box that for 99 bucks puts unlimited movie streaming on your tv

radp

Good news everybody -- copyright is no more! "Piracy is flat, unadulterated theft", so there's no need for copyright laws. Theft laws do just fine.

LessPop_MoreFizz

21:21

and it is firmly in 'impulse holiday buy territory' at 99 bucks.

tzenes

yeah 99 is the impulse margin

LessPop_MoreFizz

It is going to sell like CRAZY at Apple Retail.

if they do even a halfway decent job of training

(n.b. they did a HORRID job training people to sell the original TV which IMO is a big part of why it was such a flop.)

tzenes

well I know here at Amazon we are very familiar with the $99 line

LessPop_MoreFizz

I spent 5 years in Apple Retail. I know the sort of customers and the sort of impulse puchases they'll make. tv will sell like crazy if retail does it's job with it.

it's priced perfectly. The physical size of the unit is a huge sell too.

tzenes

like I said, maybe you're right. I'm a technophile so I'm not as intouch with that market

LessPop_MoreFizz

21:25

it's this little 2" square magic box you plug into your TV.

McKay

:147373 No, I think they're targetting non-gaming technophiles too. (which also isn't you Tzenes, but should be closer to you)

tzenes

@McKay I'm looking around my office and I'm not seeing a single person who wants this

they all have solutions to that problem, why would they buy another?

McKay

And listening in my office, "everyone" seems to want this.

Because they don't have such solutions

tzenes

maybe they're mac users?

I work in a linux heavy environment

mac is kind of the butt of a lot of jokes

McKay

No? We're a win development shop, heavy windows development stuff. One of them in particular is a mac fan too,

tzenes

21:28

this is very strange

McKay

but has a lot of PCs and Macs at home.

Ivo Flipse

I don't have a perfect solution either @McKay, but I know when someone is robbing me when all they're offering is a nicer looking version of XBMC or Boxee

tzenes

jesus I did 305 rep today

McKay

Does Boxee support netflix? non-xbox Media Center Extenders?

tzenes

and lost another 60

Ivo Flipse

21:33

not sure, they're box is currently at the FCC I think (or their remote is)

tzenes

here is a good link: blog.boxee.tv/2010/09/01/some-boxee-thoughts-about-the-apple-tv

McKay

The guys who seem interested in AppleTV like the 1) Netflix Streaming, 2) Streaming from a computer 2) Streaming from the internet.

XBox 360 and PS3 do 1 and 2 well, but more expensive

Roku is the same price but doesn't do #2 as well.

The Boxee Box is more expensive

the Boxee application requires a separate computer? I'm not sure I understand Boxee well enough.

tzenes

360 streams from the internet...

Also, isn't Boxee $100?

JavadocMD

:147407 You can run Boxee on a standard computer, yes.

McKay

I left off #3 for the 360 and PS3, because it's probably about the same.

tzenes

21:40

the same?

McKay

the PS3 watches random internet videos through it's crappy browser.

the 360, the PS3, and the Apple TV all have a rental online streaming system.

LessPop_MoreFizz

Point is, for many people this is still an 'unsolved problem'. For those that have a solution, whether it's a game console, or a PC, or whatever, it probably doesn't replace it. For those that don't, in many cases, the primary barrier against the existing solutions was either price, or time investment, both of which TV requires substantially less of.

McKay

In any case, the PS3 and the 360 do the same job as the Apple TV, but they're a lot more expensive, and may not be compelling to them.

LessPop_MoreFizz

Interestingly, those two barriers are probably the least threatening to early adopters and technophiles like us.

McKay

:147420 Well said.

tzenes

21:43

I think the big barrier is that most normal people don't think they want it

they have their OnDemand and that's good enough

they don't want Streaming from Youtube

LessPop_MoreFizz

Which means that for a lot of the people that care enough about the announcement itself to know about this today, they don't want it, and the reaction is negative.

But once the people that don't think they want it see it in an Apple Store for 99 bucks... they're gonna start wanting it.

the price is low enough that you can convince people.

tzenes

well the joke goes you can probably sell cow crud for $99

LessPop_MoreFizz

This reminds me a great deal of the "I have a netbook why would I want an iPad" conversations of 6 months ago. That's nice and all, but the people the iPad was being marketed at were the people that didn't buy the Netbook.

JavadocMD

:147432 What kind of cow are we talking about here? *fishes for wallet*

LessPop_MoreFizz

:147432 Will it make my lawn greener?

tzenes

21:45

@lesspop is that true? I had thought that they were the people who did buy a netbook

LessPop_MoreFizz

:147439 Not from my experience of iPad owners, and what I hear from the folks I still know at Retail.

Word from them is that the vast majority of iPad sales at retail are folks who are impressed by the device when demoed in store.

tzenes

I realized how nice an ipad was when I realized that a netbook really does more than I want it to, and the things I want it to do the iPad does better

LessPop_MoreFizz

:147444 Which is a realization that the people I'm talking about hadn't come to 6 months ago, 2 months before release.

which is my point. :P

tzenes

ah, so you think that I'm going to have both an Xbox and an Apple TV?

I'm not saying you're wrong, maybe I will

its hard to tell right now

McKay

See, I want a reason to buy an iPad, but I don't really see it filling a need for me, especially without a keyboard.

Does it play StarCraft?

Oh, it doesn't?

It lets me surf the internet?

My phone does that.

Is it smaller than my phone?

Oh.

tzenes

21:50

your phone doesn't surf the internet

its a strange thing to say

but once you've used an ipad you understand

your phone is nice for looking something up on wikipedia

McKay

:147463 Help me understand without having one?

tzenes

but for using this chat room? painful

McKay

okay.

tzenes

for browsing through stuff on slashdot? annoying

for answering question on gaming.se? prohibitive

McKay

But if I'm doing those things, why am I not sitting at a computer?

(and why am I not working playing StarCraft II?)

tzenes

21:51

why use your phone instead of a computer?

McKay

Because I'm out.

I'm away from home, or I'm at dinner and a question came up.

tzenes

actually for me its usually because i'm in bed

LessPop_MoreFizz

:147471 Because the couch is so much more comfortable.

tzenes

or on the couch watching tv

yeah, that a big one for me

like if my computer pings because one of you messaged me in here

I've got to get up, go in the other room, sit down, and look

with the ipad I just tap twice

LessPop_MoreFizz

The selling point of the iPad isn't it's portability to take around with you all day, although it has that to an extent. It's the portability to be comfortably used all over your home.

tzenes

21:53

before I owned an ipad I would have never realized this

LessPop_MoreFizz

My phone is the reverse.

tzenes

but getting up to go to the computer is annoying as hell

McKay

:147486 Yeah, I see this. I do have a laptop floating around the house for similar purposes.

tzenes

Like I said, a laptop does more than you need, and what you want it to do, it doesn't do as well

LessPop_MoreFizz

:147490 Yeah, but laptops are bulky, and awkward, and kind of annoying on the couch.

McKay

21:53

an iPad is more convenient, sure, but is it worth the cost? And the "crap, I can't play StarCraft II on this thing" factor?

tzenes

well if cost is an issue wait for the droid pads

LessPop_MoreFizz

:147493 You can't play Starcraft II, but you can play Warpgate HD.

tzenes

they're on their way

LessPop_MoreFizz

Fair trade IMO.

tzenes

warpgate isn't nearly as fun

JavadocMD

21:54

:147493 Which is why I'm waiting until the iPad hits the $200-250 price range.

LessPop_MoreFizz

/s/ Warpgate/ Words With Friends.

tzenes

ok, you win with that one

LessPop_MoreFizz

And I'm sorry but if you argue Scrabble is not as fun as anything, you are a philistine and a heretic.

tzenes

also, :%s/Warpgate/Words With Friends/g

there is only one text editor

Ivo Flipse

I just play those dumb social games on the ipad

but I second @tzenes, browsing on the ipad is very much unlike browsing your phone

I guess 7 inch would be good enough, since most pages aren't wide enough

but surely it beats 3.7 inch or smaller

LessPop_MoreFizz

21:56

The other iOS games that have consumed me are The Incident (though that feels better on phone) and Carcassone.

Ivo Flipse

I like Castlecraft

LessPop_MoreFizz

itunes.apple.com/us/app/epic-citadel/id388888815#

Ivo Flipse

and those crappy things like Farm Story :P but it goes against my nature to plant anything other than the most profitable stuff :P

McKay

Carcassonne is better in real life (same with scrabble)

LessPop_MoreFizz

that's the game Epic demoed at the stevenote today

tzenes

21:57

I might have to add some of these to my list

LessPop_MoreFizz

free demo

FallenAngelEyes

I love Carcassonne

LessPop_MoreFizz

:147527 The beauty of an iPad with carcassone is you can do an awesome pass and play game. Who needs board?

Ivo Flipse

Castlecraft is quite decent @tzenes

FallenAngelEyes

Though I've never really played it electronically

Ivo Flipse

21:58

and off course playing plants vs zombies is totally awesome, especially if you've never done it before

Dungeon Hunter HD is fun

Conquist was just a cheap risk version, but you can play it with multiple players

tzenes

I got paid today so I bought 8 DS games

McKay

pass and play discourages the discussion, which is half the point of carcassonne. Social interaction.

Ivo Flipse

(offline at least)

so a new surge of questions by you? :P

LessPop_MoreFizz

:147545 How does that discourage discussion?

tzenes

yeah, and I'll add in these ipad games

LessPop_MoreFizz

21:59

the iPad screen is absolutely large enough to be a 'board' on the table, IMO.

Ivo Flipse

the best thing is: if my GF has the ipad, I get to play SC2

2

tzenes

I need mobile stuff for pax this weekend

FallenAngelEyes

Even with expansions?

Ivo Flipse

nuff said

McKay

Typical board size? several feet in diameter.

:147557 Now that is a reason to get an iPad :D

tzenes

22:00

this is a very weird conversation

because not 5 minutes ago I was on the opposite side

saying: why would anyone buy apple tv

but here I am evangelizing the ipad

Ivo Flipse

it truly is, she get's to watch crappy replays of reality programs

yup, but the ipad and apple tv are not the same

LessPop_MoreFizz

:147564 This is the thing about a lot of Apple products. Is that people tend to be very skeptical when they launch new stuff in my experience.

Ivo Flipse

my tv is not a touchscreen

McKay

But you can watch a movie on your iPad, then send it to your apple TV!

LessPop_MoreFizz

"Less storage than a nomad. No wireless. Lame."

alexanderpas

22:01

ipad is only good, if you aren't the primary user of it ;)

Ivo Flipse

and they're going to upsell me on accessories

for me, there's no reason to buy an apple tv

because if I wanted it to do what the ipad does

I'd buy a mac mini

not a frigging apple tv

LessPop_MoreFizz

:147580 But it's not for what the iPad does. And it costs 1/6th the price.

Ivo Flipse

you get what you pay for

1/6th of the ipad

LessPop_MoreFizz

For me, there's no reason to buy a blender. Because if I want it to do what a toaster does, I'd buy an oven. Not a blender.

Ivo Flipse

it's not wireless, it doesn't have a touch screen, I still have to share the tv with my gf

I'm buying an Android version as soon as one comes to market that's affordable and doesn't suck

LessPop_MoreFizz

22:07

It is wireless. Unless you mean the input from the device to your TV in which case... pretty sure that's some pie in the sky tech.

Ivo Flipse

engadget.com/2010/09/01/…

LessPop_MoreFizz

(Incidentally, something similar was always my favorite complaint from idiots at apple - "WHAT DO YOU MEAN THIS IS WIRELESS! I HAVE TO CHARGE IT/PLUG IT IN TO THE WALL")

Ivo Flipse

that would be widi (engadget.com/2010/01/07/…)

LessPop_MoreFizz

:147597 Which is basically a device connected to your TV with a wire.

McKay

:147602 But it might be built into TVs soon.

Then we'd just need wireless power built in.

Ivo Flipse

22:10

yup, but the device connected to that device connected to your tv isn't

and last I checked, it sends over at higher bitrates than what apples streams to you ;)

LessPop_MoreFizz

There are some areas where I don't understand the need to go wireless. Input devices hooked up to a TV are generally one of them. They're usually as stationary as the TV itself, so is it really that hard to learn to cable manage?

Ivo Flipse

what the hell, it doesn't even have apps (the apple tv)

LessPop_MoreFizz

I mean, I'm all for wire /reduction/. But HDMI mostly solves that tbqh.

:147611 My point is that the device you want and the device apple is selling that happens to have the same name as what you want are just not the same thing at all.

2

Ivo Flipse

just wait until Intel's medfield comes out, I'm sure they'll built in such chips. If I can stream from my phone to my tv, that would be nice

you are very correct :P

and I can't believe other's are falling for it

an xbox will set you back 150$, go buy that

LessPop_MoreFizz

:147618 And an annual fee for XBL

Ivo Flipse

22:14

you think Apple doesn't tax you? wait until you need to pay for a remote control :P

tzenes

you can actually get a 360 on sale for $100, and XBL for $40 a year

LessPop_MoreFizz

TV is cheaper, has no commitments or subscriptions required, is smaller, and is simpler. For someone that doesn't want to play video games, it's undeniably cheaper.

tzenes

additionally you have to purchase $10 for netflix per month

Ivo Flipse

tzenes

and another $10 for hulu plus

ping was a dumb name though

Ivo Flipse

22:15

no commitments doesn't get you anything either :P

so was Bing, but heck, doesn't seem to bother Microsoft

tzenes

what's the monthly on appletv? did they announce it yet?

LessPop_MoreFizz

There are definite reasons to want a device that does more than TV, and an Xbox is a very appealing alternative, but to claim there's no market for a device that's cheaper and doesn't have any required fees is crazy.

There is no monthly on AppleTV

on the device itself.

tzenes

bullshit

netflix isn't free

LessPop_MoreFizz

If you have a Netflix subscription you can use it.

tzenes

ok, so what is the monthly for everything you need to use AppleTV?

LessPop_MoreFizz

22:16

If you dont', you can't use netflix. You can still do all the other stuff the device does.

tzenes

what about Hulu?

LessPop_MoreFizz

If you want to use netflix, it's 10/mo

tv doesn't do hulu

tzenes

oh, then why would I want it?

LessPop_MoreFizz

TV shows through appletv are all alacarte through ITMS. 99 cents/episode.

or you can stream over your network from content on your computer.

or stream anything your netflix subscription has access to.

tzenes

hmmm, Hulu plus on my ipad is $10 a month, thats 10 episodes a month on apple tv

if I watch 11 episodes hulu is a better deal

I dont' get why they don't have hulu on appletv

that seems like a mistake

LessPop_MoreFizz

22:18

(personally, I'd expect an update or jailbreak app to allow streaming of the video output from any app on an iphone/ipad to an tv to happen within 6 months or so.)

Ivo Flipse

streaming content from my computer doesn't cost anything extra on an xbox

LessPop_MoreFizz

:147656 I'm guessing it was a studio objection and the deal just didn't get finished in time.

:147658 And it doesn't cost anything extra on apple tv either

tzenes

also, $.99 buys you an episode on xbox

not rent

Ivo Flipse

yeah, but your apple tv stays an apple tv, whilst xbox also plays dvd's, games

and actually let's itself be upgraded for additional services

but no worries @LessPopMoreFizz, I just like to rant, I know there's a market for this

tzenes

how much does a dvd player go for these days?

LessPop_MoreFizz

22:20

:147663 Personally, that distinction annoys me, since most of the time, I'd rather delete the content after watching it anyway. There's very few shows I have any intention of 'collecting' and those few, I want on DVD for the extras anyway.

Ivo Flipse

and I would almost consider watching tv shows legally for 1$ if I didn't want to watch 5 different shows

than either you don't have siblings or friends or they all buy it themselves, because everyone made me share it with them

tzenes

if I ever have to buy a tv show twice on apple tv I'll know that distinction right away

interestingly enough, Amazon will also sell you tvshows at $.99

hint hint

LessPop_MoreFizz

:147666 Nowhere does Apple rule out the possibility of software updates adding additional functionality to AppleTV. In fact, I'm hearing that it /is/ running iOS under the hood, so it shouldn't be hard to get hulu etc. running.

tzenes

I bet they'll have hulu with in a year

LessPop_MoreFizz

:147677 yeah, they're playing defense pretty hard. And I understand that, given the choice, sell > rent. But personally, as a consumer? A purchase is a rental 9 times out of 10.

in practice, if not technically.

tzenes

22:23

well here is how I take it: if a purchase is a rental 9 times out of 10, then the price is $1.10 instead of $.99

say I purchase a show a day, that's $36.50 a year

that's strangely close to $40...

which is the big cost difference between an appletv and an xbox360

and the xbox is also a dvd player...

not that any of that matters

people will still buy the thing regardless

you could invent an awesome player that was identical to the appletv but for $50 and appletv would probably still sell

Ivo Flipse

heck, I'll make my parents buy it, if that eeepc doesn't get a blu-ray player soon

just so I can have this discussion EVERY FRIGGING BIRTHDAY

anyway, see you tomorrow

FallenAngelEyes

night @Ivo

FallenAngelEyes

23:03

How far can you go in the Recettear demo?

LessPop_MoreFizz

I think it's just Week One.

I have to say, I'm digging the Witcher.

It's really impressive considering the tech they're working with

FallenAngelEyes

I have that but haven't played it yet

got the extended edition collector's box or something for cheap in a store, but haven't taken the time to sit down with it

LessPop_MoreFizz

I never thought I'd call combat using the NWN engine 'visceral' but it kinda is

it has combo chains!

FallenAngelEyes

wow really?

LessPop_MoreFizz

they're really simplistic and mainly just mouse click timing

but the fact that they exist makes the combat much more engaging.

combined with the three 'sword styles' (x2 sword types, so 6 styles really)

tzenes

23:09

have you guys checked out playon?

FallenAngelEyes

Huh, neat

Not heard of it, what is it?

tzenes

so it streams things from your pc to your: xbox, ps3, wii, etc

which means things like Hulu and Netflix don't require XBL

LessPop_MoreFizz

MS can't be happy about the existence of that.

FallenAngelEyes

Huh, interesting

Though I can't use Netflix/Hulu anyway :(

tzenes

I dont' know, I think a lot of the price of XBL has to do with the cost to them to run it

Playon has 0 cost to microsoft

and might move xbox's

LessPop_MoreFizz

23:14

:147773 Except that Netflix/Hulu are services MS offers as value added on XBL at no additional cost to themselves.

those are pure subscription drivers.

tzenes

actually hulu is an additional cost

I don't know about Netflix

LessPop_MoreFizz

:147781 to the user. Not to MS.

tzenes

no, I mean to MS

LessPop_MoreFizz

Unless I'm missing something?

tzenes

it has to go through their servers

Major Nealson mentioned it on his podcast

LessPop_MoreFizz

23:16

huh.

tzenes

maybe I should go back and relisten, I could be wrong

I think regardless removing the additional cost to the user is something MS would appreciate

tzenes

23:28

I need to stop looking at this reputation tab

my reputation has 0 actual value to me, it is only valuable to other people

but for some reason I am not satisfied with the 320 rep I gained today

no, I have to look at the 270 rep I didn't get

what is wrong with me?

gah

stop changing it @tzenes

who cares if its 260 or 270, what is wrong with you?

BANNED

FallenAngelEyes

Step away from the reputation tab sloooowly, @tzenes... take a deep breath... it's okay...

JavadocMD

How do you know what rep you didn't get?

tzenes

gaming.stackexchange.com/reputation

LessPop_MoreFizz

:147804 It's the amount by which he's below the cap I'd presume.

tzenes

over, but yes

JavadocMD

23:38

Hm, interesting

tzenes

this is my today:

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huh, I wondered what would happen if I did that

LessPop_MoreFizz

Nicely handled.

tzenes

yeah I thought so too

JavadocMD

This chat is slick.

tzenes

I think it should have truncated sooner though

that scroll bar is too long

like anything over 7 lines is excessive

FallenAngelEyes

23:44

Haha, Recettear's game over screen is so guilt inducing

Definitely gonna buy it

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