The Bridge

LessPop_MoreFizz

19:08

Because Elrond needed Helvetica: behance.net/Gallery/Tengwar-New/278436

Ivo Flipse

no Joel just randomly tweets about certain SE-sites he likes

Jeff mostly retweets postive users or site launch/changes

Arda Xi

Game-rec ahoy!

we need a warning to pop up whenever someone tries to tag something game-rec

Ivo Flipse

just forbid the tag

blacklist it

Arda Xi

then people will just not use it

McKay

The tag is quite valuable

Arda Xi

19:16

the tag should be used, just no question the tag should be used on should be on the site.

that sentence was less complicated in my head

Macha

I'm off to study. Bye all.

radp

:141871 That's not helvetica, that's Century Gothic

:141918 Then they'll tag it game-suggestion

"Why are you closing, I didn't tag with game-rec as you said!"

C. Ross

lol, just keep up with the close votes, people will get it

that one needs one more btw

Downvoter

19:41

Elpezmuerto told the user game-rec questions are not allowed and then answered anyway

Downvoter

I don't like people that answer questions knowing they're frowned upon

3

Downvoter

or even after they vote to close

JavadocMD

And got 10 rep out of it. shrug

Downvoter

I don't care about that, I care about keeping things clean and consistent

Downvoter

you can't have it all baby

Ivo Flipse

19:44

how much rep do I need again, to get access to close votes? I mean in the mods tools

JavadocMD

Well, Elpez said it was "subject" to close... not that it would 100% surely be closed. I agree, If the policy isn't completely consistent, people don't know whether to answer or not.

Ivo Flipse

meeh 2k... that's far off still

Downvoter

:142179 yeah, fair enough

Ivo Flipse

however, he's regular enough to know better than that

JavadocMD

:142189 Well that's another issue. ;)

Downvoter

19:47

but then again, he asked this

Downvoter

gaming.stackexchange.com/questions/6611/…

Ivo Flipse

I guess that's why he referred to the meta question

Mana

19:58

Juan!

maaaaaan, it's been like 10 years since I've seen you on the chat. This definitely warrants me playing some heartwarming reunion music.

C. Ross

Is there a way to search for the users who post the most [game-rec]?

Arda Xi

Its stats page?

C. Ross

... had a stupid moment there, thanks

Oak

You guys are too brutal

Oak

It was never agreed that game-recs are frowned upon

2

Arda Xi

20:00

:142316 gaming.stackexchange.com/users/251/etheros

Oak

If anything, the highest-rated answer in my question about it is mine,

Oak

And it says it can be allowed

Mana

@ArdaXi, did I imagine that facepunch link?

Arda Xi

:142339 No, my clipboard is acting up

Mana

maybe I've gone insane or something for real this time

Ahh, alright

C. Ross

20:05

:142336 @tzenes Isn't actively here. You can have that argument when he returns. We close vote as we feel is correct.

Downvoter

:142336 with restrictions

Downvoter

anyway, I try to stay out of voting on those questions

FallenAngelEyes

Evening all

Mana

Yo.

@Oak So far, the only game-rec I've seen that I don't feel is too broad would be that one Nethack for Windows Mobile question

and even then that's not really a game-rec question

radp

I was complaining about NFS:W pursuits, but I forgot NFS:MW also has its bs moments

like the heat level 4 challenge with the heat level 1 cop car that can't even go straight

LessPop_MoreFizz

20:19

:142487 I read that as NSF:W pursuits, and I had a very interesting mental image of the sort of game you could be complaining about.

C. Ross

same here ...

radp

and that's why we can't use the nfs* tag :(

Because of you perverts!

casually closes a tab

Mana

It could be worse. I could always ask where all the Playboy spreads are located in Mafia II.

that would gather some...interesting looks.

radp

List question :P

Mana

even though I'm only concerned about it for the sake of 100% completion

radp

20:22

Besides, Google sez youtube.com/watch?v=DaWT4KAMuII (apparently NSFW)

Mana

Damn it, now I have no excuse to ask

oh wait

this is just the demo

radp

No idea, honestly

C. Ross

:142508 Tag that NSFW or something ...

Mana

it's censored maaaaaaan

C. Ross

for those of us that click on youtube links without seeing what they're about

Mana

20:26

:<

Well...I could star it as interesting :P

radp

:142522 It's in the hands of those helpful blue colored guys

tzenes

I was ping'd

?

Mana

Yes. Oak wanted to talk about some game-rec stuff.

tzenes

ok

Mana

kind of.

tzenes

20:28

@oak you there?

C. Ross

and I told him he'd have to talk to you

radp

can see @tzenes say to hisself, "not this again"

tzenes

its no secret how I feel about game-rec

radp

Just be happy this isn't Web Apps :P

C. Ross

why?

Mana

20:31

They must have over 300 webapp-rec "questions" now

radp

Last I checked, it was their top tag.

Still is, leading by 56 over gmail

Mana

And it would probably be ours if we weren't cracking down on game-rec like we are.

radp

to be fair to the tag, I think that's the only kind-of-question tag we have

where all other tags instead classify the game one's talking about

Ivo Flipse

and they abuse the tag, they call any suggestion a webapp-rec

so it's rate is probably inflated

radp

if we had a actually-a-question tag, it'd be the top one :P

McKay

20:33

:142564 we have identify-this-game

radp

Okay, so it's two

Personally if I see a question tagged tip or advice or strategy I go ahead and remove it

because, jeez, that's what the site is about

C. Ross

I didn't think you went that way @Ivo

tzenes

I don't see a lot of value in the strategy tag, but maybe that's just me

radp

After the "open ended" discussion I don't want to go into terminology wars again

Ivo Flipse

went what way @CRoss? the way of web apps

Oak

20:35

Sorry @tzenes, was away

C. Ross

the request way

Oak

The problem isn't how you feel

Ivo Flipse

request what @CRoss :P

Oak

The problem is that (iirc) some users are voting to close and giving the reason of "game-recs" are discourages

Oak

But that's not a decision made by the community

Oak

20:36

They should say "I vote to close because I think this isn't [whatever]"

2

tzenes

perhaps they feel that they are in the majority of the community

Oak

And if anything, those that vote to close could be said to go against the community

Ivo Flipse

I agree @Oak, you should have a 'valid' reason for wanting it closed

tzenes

I'm not sure I can really give you a good answer to that, as its not a behavior I exhibit

Ivo Flipse

luckily I have a lot of imagination

C. Ross

20:37

:142608 Referring to the plethora of webapp-rec questions on webapps

Oak

Because in the meta question, the highest voted answer says they should be allowed in general.

radp

"TOO WIDE? CLOSE! TOO LOCALIZED? CLOSE! LIST? CLOSE! CLOSE! CLOSE! "

tzenes

highest voted doesn't mean majority

radp

:142629 /o\

Ivo Flipse

which meta question are you referring too @Oak?

tzenes

20:38

I understand where you're coming from

Oak

It means that of the people that care enough to check our the meta question, most prefer not to close. I think it means a lot.

tzenes

these people are portraying themselves as ambassadors of our community when they're not

Oak

@Ivo this one:

Oak

12

Q: [game-recommendations] and single, correct answers

On my question asking about game recommendations, the user random asked how such a question can have a single, correct answer. It's a very good question, in my opinion, so I bring it here - especially since it is relevant to all questions tagged [game-recommendations], which is already one of th...

Mana

Sorry. I guess I'm one of those people.

Oak

20:38

@tzenes precisely. I know you and I strongly disagree and that's okay.

radp

:142642 When I said it would be upon mods to do the tough calls, the idea was received negatively and labelled "Authoritarian".

Mana

At least, I think I've exhibited that behavior before, without really thinking it through.

Oak

I'm just saying, we do not have consensus yet, and if anything the opinion seems to be the other way around.

tzenes

strangly, I am the only person who downvoted that answer

:142652 I'm not talking about tough calls here. I'm talking about regular members talking as if they speak for the community

FallenAngelEyes

How do you see who downvoted?

Ivo Flipse

20:40

you are cherry picking just one question that suits your opinion @Oak, since the upvotes on my question would indicate the contrary

tzenes

I can see 1 downvote

and I see a down arrow

which means I downvoted

If you click on a number you can see the number of up and down votes

I think you need 750 rep to see it though

two now

I know more than two people disagree with that answer

Oak

@Ivo honestly, as I told you before, I didn't quite understand your question :) I know that there are a lot of discussions on what questions should be allowed, but as far as [game-rec]s are concenred, I do think mine is the most relevant question in [game-rec] currently on meta.

tzenes

is the fact that they didn't vote mean they don't care?

FallenAngelEyes

Oh, I thought you meant that there was a way in general to see which people downvoted.

Mana

I actually had that answer upvoted...since I did agree with it.

Ivo Flipse

20:42

my problem is @oak, that while I agree with your 'rules' they fail to address two general points: They are not too broad & They are marked as community wiki.

FallenAngelEyes

But you're going off the knowledge that you yourself downvoted it I presume.

tzenes

yeah @fallen

Ivo Flipse

when is it no longer 'too broad' and when should a question be community wiki

FallenAngelEyes

gotcha

Ivo Flipse

so yes, I completely agree that if a question meets those two points, they might be good enough to keep around

but I would prefer if those questions would be rarely asked and preferably after the beta has finished

in contrast to asking yourself: should we allow these questions, ask yourself: do we want the site to be for this kind of questions?

I think the site should be for questions on improving the way you play the game or fixing problems you have within the game

3

all the rest is just noise

JavadocMD

20:48

gamerec.se

Mana

I agree with that. That's why I'm against game-rec. I don't want to see the site become full of game-rec questions all the time. I feel as though the "actual" problems will be buried underneath all this game-rec.

JavadocMD

Maybe Atwood and Spolsky can create a recommendation engine, instead of a question/answer engine.

Mana

I'm sorry for having spoken in comments as though I was a representative of the community's opinion on certain questions involving game-rec. It hadn't really occurred to me that I was talking this way, but in retrospect I probably was.

uhm, really though, I'd just kind of like to see some kind of solid consensus reached on what we do with game-rec before our site's progress is evaluated.

woah, Jason Berkan just brought a heck of a lot of Mario questions up to the front page.

JavadocMD

Yeah was just going to mention that... it looks like all he did was add or remove the wii tag from all of those...

Oak

Sorry, was away. @Ivo I absolutely love these kind of questions. I agree that they shouldn't probably be as common as they are, and I am not fond of plain "I liked X, what else will I like" questions; but I would like to see quality [game-rec] questions, both in the beta and afterwards.

Oak

20:59

@Mana I would also like to see some consensus :)

Mana

Wait, why is he killing the Wii tag? What the hell?

radp

Is that a sockpuppet of @tzenes retagging 8k questions with a cookie account? :o ← joke

JavadocMD

:142745 Yeah that can't be right. And he added the wii tag to this one: gaming.stackexchange.com/questions/3154/…

Time for rollback brigade?

Oak

Hmm.

Oak

I'm trying to understand the reason for his edits.

Downvoter

21:08

me too

Downvoter

also, I want to try that little ban button, so try to find malice in his actions

Downvoter

muahahaha

Oak

Actually,

Oak

What he does is consistent with the highest voted answer (which is mine) here:

Oak

6

Q: Should questions always be tagged with either a console/platform or with "multi-platform"?

We appear to have instant consensus that a game tag (or game series tag) should be applied to all questions on specific titles. Should we also look to apply either a console or platform tag (iphone, OSX, Xbox-360) or a "multi-platform" tag to any question that refers to a specific game?

discussion tagging consoles

Downvoter

21:10

you always have the highest vote answer, don't you?

Ivo Flipse

well @oak, I tried it myself at the beginning but it got shot down before I could keep it decent

and I agree, I also like to get new games recommended

I just think our site is not the place for that

Downvoter

I agree also

Oak

@Juan that must be why they made me a mod in the first place :P

Downvoter

and I agree with @Oak's answer

Ivo Flipse

I guess that given Netflix, iTunes and Amazon do a good job of recommending

Downvoter

21:11

about game-rec

Ivo Flipse

I guess there's a place for a game recommendation site

Downvoter

some should be allowed

Downvoter

I said this from the beginning

Ivo Flipse

well I once proposed to have a meta question on it, where people could vote which should be opened, but only if it was curated properly and not the other way around

Oak

@Ivo I think that my suggestions - forcing them to be CW and closing them if they are too broad - would help with keeping their numbers reasonable

Oak

21:12

of course I might be wrong

Ivo Flipse

well the fact that a question should be CW to indicates that it's not a good question to begin with

if it needs that to be open in the first place

I know, its not 'fun' but there's enough fun in the other questions to keep me going

Oak

btw @Juan here's another meta-discussion which agrees with Jason:

Oak

-4

Q: Mandatory tags for platform?

We appear to have instant consensus that a game tag (or game series tag) should be applied to all questions on specific titles. link The only added value I see in adding it is for filtering purposes - and while that is admittedly useful, I think it will encumber the tagging sys...

discussion tagging

Oak

So I guess no ban today :)

Downvoter

darn it

Oak

21:14

He even reverted his own retagging for the one question which was actually about the platform.

Oak

gaming.stackexchange.com/posts/3154/revisions

JavadocMD

Having all those hit the front page because of tag cleanup is unfortunate though.

Downvoter

[status-bydesign]

Oak

@Ivo my idea to make it CW is mainly to prevent rep-whoring, I must confess. Though I do think that these kind of questions - where each answer details a game - could benefit from being edited by the community (more details, newer versions etc).

Oak

(though honestly that could be said about any answer, really)

Oak

21:18

@JavadocMD but it does have the advantage of making our front page not being practically entirely about SC2, if only for a minute :)

JavadocMD

:142841 If only I had a few hours to spend on Dwarf Fortress I could fix SC2 real good. ;)

Oak

Oh man DF is like the biggest anomaly we have

JavadocMD

Anomaly? You mean because it has a relatively low user-base but high percentage of questions?

Oak

Yea

Oak

Just... odd

JavadocMD

21:21

I don't see it as that odd. The game is designed as a question factory.

Ivo Flipse

I'm always for properly maintained questions @oak, but it goes against the spirit of the site to even need to prevent rep-whoring

these questions are just 'unfair' to the system

JavadocMD

If DF explains how to get anything done, it hasn't done its job!

Oak

:)

Ivo Flipse

I'd be more happy if we had special blog posts about it

and again: I can't wait for the next line of blockbusters to release, so everyone cuts some slack on SC2

2

McKay

/concur @IvoFlipse

JavadocMD

21:24

I don't mind SC2 questions when I learn something (or feel like I can successfully teach something). I just haven't learned anything from them in a while.

tzenes

:142881 I worry this won't be the case

Ivo Flipse

that what won't be the case @tzenes? that people will cut SC2 some slack or that other questions will get proper attention?

McKay

that the next blockbuster won't be as big as SC2?

That SC2 will still be the leader?

Oak

@Ivo I agree to some extent, but other sites do have questions of that kind. I really love those questions and I also think they are good for the site, and I would like to see them as long as they are not abused. CW will help make sure they aren't. But it's not only that. CWing a question isn't only about preventing rep-whoring

tzenes

That the SC2 isn't special because its a block buster

Mana

21:29

I had hoped with the release of Mafia II we'd be getting some questions there

given the large amount of hype it had been given in other gaming communities

tzenes

:142902 I think an ideal solution to this problem would be if there was a different button which prevented the gain of rep without marking the question as CW

Oak

@tzenes but why? CW isn't bad in itself

tzenes

largely because these are not questions which require community collaboration

Ivo Flipse

no, no, SC2 is special because it's a tactical game. Not many question to be asked about COD gameplay

tzenes

CW was designed for a different purpose

Ivo Flipse

21:31

but still, it just means people will play OTHER games

tzenes

@Ivo I meant that SC2 will be special because of its involvement here

LessPop_MoreFizz

SC II has a uniquely deep meta game that is going to drive it to questions for a long time, well beyond right now. Most games, people are used to going to gamefaqs or whatever because the single right answer is in a walkthrough over there.

Oak

@tzenes but they can still enjoy the collaboration

tzenes

@Oak by that logic all questions should be CW so everyone can enjoy the collaboration

CW was created for a reason, game-rec is definitely not that reason

I think Ivo sees CW being used this way as a Kludge

radp

I'm still entirely not sure what the real purpose of CW is

I've watched today a talk Joel gave to Google about SO and described CW mainly as a way to not award a billion rep for a single reply, citing "best programming cartoon" as an example

Oak

21:34

So CW is mainly about preventing rep-whoring :)

tzenes

I think that's the way it is used, I don't think that's really its purpose

radp

(I'm trying to link to the point he says that)

tzenes

if that were the ideal use case, then why do successive edits push things into CW?

it seems the use case is for when people collaborate, not giving only one person the rep

Ivo Flipse

the idea is to allow users to collaborate in a wiki style fashion on questions that are likely to not have one-best answer

however, because it prevents rep, we abuse it like a kludge to slam down question so they aren't abused for rep whoring

while denying that that is its purpose

radp

:142938 youtube.com/watch?v=NWHfY_lvKIQ#t=43m

Ivo Flipse

21:37

I'm of the opinion that if I have to use CW to do that, that question isnt worth being open in the first place

as it goes against what our engine is made for

so, if users want these kind of information, I'm sure we can come up with alternative ways to make those lists whilst not polluting the site with it

just as the competition for user-created content is awesome, just not on the site

what we do need, is for those things to take place in an 'official' place, so the community users who contribute to those things get some for of recognition or attribution for their awesome investments

but this will only happen if we show that this is required

radp

I hope that's the point where he says that anyway, I don't want to watch to the full 53 mins again anyway.

tzenes

@badp I'm listening to it, I'll let you know

Oak

@Ivo I think I understand... but I disagree. I've seen CW questions which were (1) useful to me and (2) relevant to the site... I don't think anything CW should be closed. I do agree that CW is usually not used for what we would expect it to be used.

tzenes

He brings it up in reference to people editing questions too much but he does use the words "or slightly off topic"

Oak

But anyway it's late, I'll sleep on this all :)

Oak

21:44

g'night

tzenes

he almost mentions the programmer cartoon but cuts himself off

I imagine he planned that as example

so he definitely says that they use CW to prevent rep game for popular questions

but by design he seems to indicate that its for removing ownership from edited questions

Ivo Flipse

I just wouldn't listen too much to Joel on these topics though

this is more Jeff or Robert's terrain

FallenAngelEyes

night @Oak

tzenes

night @oak

JavadocMD

Woah, these questions were asked by the same person.

2

A: What's the proper way to deal with someone who Team Kills and harasses you constantly in Starcraft 2?

While in game there are options to block a player or report a player's actions directly to blizzard. If nothing else, block them. If they're blocked you won't be matched with them in future games.

tzenes

21:46

I imagine Joel would see it much the way I do: These are opinions, and experts aren't interested in a site that has a lot of opinions

JavadocMD

9

Q: Starcraft 2 Banlist?

Is there a banlist or way to block certain players from being in the games you play? Update - To clarify, the banlist I mention is a personal ban list on your account. It's not a public banlist on Blizzard. Update #2 - Further clarification of what a Banlist is. I'm interested in the blocking...

starcraft-2

Dup?

LessPop_MoreFizz

I wouldn't call it a dupe per se, but it's certainly similar.

tzenes

do they have the same answer? and is that answer provided?

it looks like they have the same answer

infact, the answer to one links to the other

JavadocMD

One answer links to the other question. :)

LessPop_MoreFizz

The answer to the newer question is one possible solution to the older question.

tzenes

21:48

voted

LessPop_MoreFizz

But in fact, the accepted solution to the older question is not a particularly good solution to the newer one - since not everyone I'd want to block is someone I'd want to get banned.

JavadocMD

Whether or not the newer is a dupe is a matter of motivation. The older is "can I ban someone for harassment?" the newer is "can I ban someone (for an unstated reason)". Are those really different?

LessPop_MoreFizz

it's not can I ban someone though, it's 'can I block someone *from interacting with me*'

which is a very different concern from 'can i get someone banned from battle.net *for harassing me*'

JavadocMD

Then maybe the question should be edited to make that distinction more clear?

LessPop_MoreFizz

It's the difference between Ignore and Ignore + Report. Which, IMO is an important distinction, if that distinction is availiable in game.

tzenes

21:51

I don't believe it is

LessPop_MoreFizz

I think the confusion comes from the use of the word 'ban' in the newer question.

tzenes

what's more I think the answer to "banned for harassing me" includes a discussion of ignoring

I think to show this is not a dup, we'd need an answer which is applicable to the newer but not the other

LessPop_MoreFizz

Yea, the answer to the newer question is a potential solution to the older one - ignoring someone is an appropriate response to harassment.

McKay

Yeah, the question should be edited?

It's not really a "banlist"

LessPop_MoreFizz

The new question is narrower than the old one.

tzenes

21:52

@Less I think its already an answer

specifically webnet's answer

LessPop_MoreFizz

It is, and it's referenced in the newer question, but it's not the accepted answer, and just because the same solution can be applied to two distinct questions doesn't make those questions dupes IMO.

tzenes

I don't see the new question garnering any new information

now obviously webnet should have stated how to do the block

but I think he didn't because you CAN'T

LessPop_MoreFizz

I don't either. But I do see the new question being easier to locate for somebody looking for the same information, because the old one was asking something somewhat distinct.

radp

Can't you merge the questions?

tzenes

well close as dupe solves the merging problem

radp

21:54

Ah right, then you have to decide what to merge into what

tzenes

if someone finds the new they get a link to the old

McKay

:143075 Yes, I haven't had problems with this, so I haven't looked too hard, but I don't think it's possible aside from what tzenes mentiones in his comment here:

13

A: What's the proper way to deal with someone who Team Kills and harasses you constantly in Starcraft 2?

Sadly there is no method by which you can prevent being matched with another player without breaking ToU, however Team Killing is a form of harassment and can get you banned if reported. I would suggest you contact blizzard support as soon as possible. Webform: Email Form For detailed informat...

tzenes

I'll have to double check, but it might be that after a match you can select the username and say: block user

It wasn't in the beta

but they may have added it

if that is true, then the new question is valid

if not, then I'd say dup

JavadocMD

@tzenes I'd agree with that. I'll have to check and modify my vote on the older question based on the result.

McKay

Well, I don't think it's a dup, just because it has the same answer, because comments and things totally differ.

That's like saying any question where the answer is "climb the ladder" should be merged into the same question. Even if they are from different games.

tzenes

21:58

@McKay these aren't two different games

LessPop_MoreFizz

:143107 Agreed. And remember, we're also concerned with being a place where people can /find/ information, and being easily found on google by people searching for this information. While the same tool may be required, the task the tool is applied to can vary.

McKay

One is a harassment question, the other is kinda a "I don't like playing with this guy, but that's just because he sucks"

tzenes

close as dupe doesn't make the information any harder to find

remember the close question remains open

you can still see it

you just can't post new answers

McKay

Yes, it's not two different games, but it's two different questions.

tzenes

the end result is all answers are in one place

I don't see the value in repeating information instead of just linking it?

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