The Bridge

Unionhawk

02:22

twitter.com/acanticleforkev/status/1749973899800903734

Memor-X

03:49

@Unionhawk for a moment there i thought the download was going to be some rick roll

Unionhawk

04:14

Yeah discord is

there we go

SPArcheon

10:55

and as usual...

Sep 14, 2023 at 15:42, by SPArcheon

western/cowgirl Peach is probably confirmed

Princess Peach: Showtime! – Transformation Trailer – Nintendo Switch

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I was right.

SPArcheon

11:32

Bhahaha....

The plagiarism continues.

After Palworld they are making a new game...

Never Grave: The Witch and The Curse - Announcement Trailer

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Never Grave... nahhh, bad title

Call it Hollow Grave... or maybe Never Knight....

At least they will have money to pay when they will inevitably be killed off by a legal strike.

I.. think that Palplagiarism will not survive more than a month.

Nzall

11:58

@SPArcheon I'm not too sure actually. Copyright is a fickle beast, and it appears the only surefire way for Nintendo to win a lawsuit is if they can prove that Palworld developers used Nintendo assets in their development process. But just based on the appearance of the pals I'm not sure if a judge would consider them to violate copyright

Memor-X

Nintendo's already got their sights on it but only because someone released a Pokemon mod for it and Nintendo is going after that

there is a rumour that the polygon's used for the Pals are identical to Pokemon. if true Nintendo would have a better case there i think

SPArcheon

12:24

@Nzall I am not sure you are up-to-date. Even third party developers state that the models are so similar that it is clear they started from stolen assets.

First, that is the company whose CEO basically said "AI is a good way to steal art and bypass copyright."

twitter.com/imZaytri/status/1748432267792547987

Second, not similar? Yeah, right.

> twitter.com/Demonfloof27181/status/1748891590788268506

... really.. just look at twitter, I don't have time now to post you more examples.

Let's just say that apparently they even copied Scarlet's Azzura gym leader design for a character (if someone could provide a picture, that would be appreciated)

Third...

> To “accidentally” create a complex model mesh with so near-exact proportions is practically impossible. To repeat that improbability throughout your roster… doesn’t pass the sniff test

twitter.com/covingtown/status/1749462735291859423

Just look at what blender/3d artist/game designers say

There is no way those are all "made from ground".

Either it was an human that started with a pokemon model or a generative AI. In both cases they stole stuff.

@Nzall also, just for clarification, don't think that straight stealing assets is uncommon.

Memor-X

@SPArcheon or they are just not creative

SPArcheon

@Memor-X Read.The.Post.

Memor-X

from what i have heard from those who played it, the assets don't match as if it's almost an asset flip

so they could have just gotten pokemon-like asset packs and reskinned them

SPArcheon

It is not about "look similar". It is about similar at mesh level.

@Memor-X Look at the videos in that post. They actually overlap two models - one from pokemon and one from the copy. Go, tell me it doesn't match.

repeated for dozens of "just similar" Pals.

Reminds me about Legend of Neverland stealing actual voice actors lines from Genshin in one of their ads

The Legend of Neverland Advertising (featuring Barbara from Genshin Impact)

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^ yes, this is real, I personally saw that ads.

They even had the audacity to call a character Barbara to justify the fact that the stolen line says her name.

Barbara's Special Video: An Idol's Healing Magic

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videogameschronicle.com/news/…

Memor-X

13:21

bot/troll is back

@SPArcheon at what point did i say they didn't?

Ronan

@SPArcheon Yeah I don't think it's AI, just old school copying

Memor-X

i said "pokemon-like asset pack", that doesn't exclude that the models look the same

Ronan

You said the assets don't match in the previous message

Nzall

@Memor-X If the pokémon like asset pack stole those models from pokémon, that's not Palworld's fault

Memor-X

@Ronan should have clarified that, was talking about between the Pals, the player characters, environment and UI

which is what you generally get when you've gotten assets and just slapped them all together, they don't match to one another

Ronan

13:25

Aah I see, yeah that makes sense

Nzall

@Memor-X I put in moderator flags here and TIF

And it's fixed

Memor-X

@Nzall most of the fault would lie with the asset pack maker yes, but it's also bad on the dev for making an asset flip

Nzall

I think the term asset flip is overused. There is definitely more work that has gone into this game than your average asset flip

Memor-X

And It's Gone... Poof! South Park Meme, In Glorious HD!

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SPArcheon

@Memor-X sorry, got you wrong then.

@Memor-X Alas, it is blatant that something shady is going on.

Nzall

13:34

When I hear the term Asset Flip, I think of Steam Early Access games that take that free Unity zombie survival asset pack and release it as a game with barely any alterations

This game to the best of my knowledge is way more varied

and isn't just the product of someone who spent 5 minutes downloading and slightly modifying existing assets

Don't forget that these asset packs are intended to be used like that: you buy them for early development to have placeholders while you're developing your own assets

SPArcheon

The Pals are clearly pokemon-like, to the point it almost look like tracing. At the same time the guns apparently are straight unedited assets from Unreal5 asset libraries. So basically they are telling me that the same devs made so many Pals from scratch and they only by chance look like pokemons but... they were not able to make guns in a game that has guns as a central mechanic.

yeah, so gonna believe that.

Memor-X

@Nzall ofcause, but when you go to release they should have been swapped out

Nzall

And honestly, there are well over a thousand pokémon out there. If you're going to release a game inspired by Pokémon, you're going to struggle to make pokemon that don't look at least a bit similar

@Memor-X it's still an early access game

And they weren't sure how succesful it would be

They probably expected this game to sell a couple thousand copies, not 10 million players in less than a week

SPArcheon

@Nzall and exactly what is "inspired by pokemon" in relation to the monster design? Where can I capture this pokemon?

Memor-X

you're right there's been more effort put into here but the mismatch i have been seeing between realistic looking environments/gun, fortnite characters and Pals just seems to be like a lack of developing the visual theme to the game

Nzall

13:40

@SPArcheon That's a digimon

Memor-X

Pokemon's graphics might be outdated to some, but are still consistent

SPArcheon

@Nzall I think you missed the point then, that was purposely a joke... How is that your average digimon doesn't look like a pokemon? How is that while they look similar your average mobile pokemon clone doesn't look SO similar? How is that your average JRPG doesn't contains pikachu expy?

Memor-X

@SPArcheon you find that one on Route "01000110 01101001 01101100 01100101 00100000 01001001 01110011 01101100 01100001 01101110 01100100"

Nzall

@SPArcheon I mean, Digimon had plenty of mons that looked like pokémon

SPArcheon

@Memor-X I appreciate the fact that you actually put "File Island" in there...

Nzall

13:44

Like, they had a fire breathing dinosaur that digivolved into a metal armor.

Memor-X

@SPArcheon i knew someone would get it

SPArcheon

@Nzall I struggle to find at least one that doesn't here

Nzall

I think part of the reason why I'm so blasé about is because I think the world's copyright system is enormously outdated and not fit for the modern globally integrated world anymore, including situations like this

SPArcheon

@Nzall look. I am totally for things like Them Fighting Herds happening, and I supports fan things like fan made MLP online morpg Legend of Equestria. I like mods and can accept references or similar games (it was called METROIDvania for a reason...)

Nzall

Like, Pokémon is a story-based RPG based around collecting monsters, building out your collection, customizing their loadouts and using them to defeat ever increasing challenges as you progress through the world. Palworld is an open world sandbox survival crafting game where you can capture monsters to automate things. They're completely different games and I think that matters when it comes to copyright

SPArcheon

13:57

But this seems straight making money (and tons of it) with someone else work.

@Nzall Are you telling me that I can steal Zelda BOTW assets if I use them in a racing game?

Ronan

I don't care about copyright, I just don't want it to be the norm that every game now has the same collection of designs with no variation

SPArcheon

Because the point is not the gameplay, the point is that the assets look like derivative edits of pokemon assets

Does this look and play like pokemon?

Nzall

They're edits. They're effectively redesigns that look similar. In my opinion copyright should only apply when you're straight up trying to pass off someone else's work as your own without any edits

Like if you're trying to sell a direct port of Pokémon Scarlet to another platform as if it were your own product

SPArcheon

(cont) Yes, it does. But the models don't look like edits of 2d pokemon assets. Palworld ones DO. And it comes from a dev that shown that they can't make 3d graphics with... everything else in the game.

Ronan

My question is why should any dev bother coming up with interesting designs if we're saying that you can just put a cowboy hat on a pikachu and we'll buy it anyway?

SPArcheon

14:01

If the rest looks trash OR out-of-the-box premade assets while your Pals are the only good thing... allow me to find it VERY sus when they look so close to pokemon models.

Alas I find it funny.

Nzall

In Dutch there's a saying: "beter goed gejat dan slecht verzonnen". It means that you're usually better off adapting something good from someone else than trying to come up with your own unique but rubbish idea.

Ronan

@Nzall Better for who though? They'll probably make more money, but as someone who wants to play fun and interesting games it's not good for me

Nzall

Like, remixes are everywhere. Tolkien invented orcs, and Warcraft, Warhammer and other games stole them.

SPArcheon

> pokemon -> people screaming "animal abuse, fighting for fun, harmful content"
Palworld -> people screaming "best game in the world, much GTA, such wow, should add GTA night clubs too!"

Nzall

@Ronan Palworld is still fun and interesting even if the pals are inspired by pokémon. The gameplay itself is fun and uses elements from other games in appropriate ways

Note: I don't own Palworld, nor pokémon.

Ronan

14:09

It doesn't look at all interesting to me

Wipqozn

Palworld is just another survival crafting game, but with pokemon mixed in

SPArcheon

I think that we moved from "the pal assets look like stolen edits of pokemon assets" to "similar gameplay elements is not plagiarism". I'll sit out on this second argument, never intended that.

Yuuki

15:36

@SPArcheon to be fair, about the only people who seriously scream at Pokemon for animal abuse is PETA and they probably do it more for the attention

In that case, it's more about Pokemon being a huge brand (and I mean huge) than anything close to meaningful

SPArcheon

@Yuuki Obviously you never meet some "Binding of Isaac Mom"

The same ones that go "D&D is a game made by the devil"

Yuuki

Binding of Isaac isn't Pokemon?

I'm talking specifically about animal abuse allegations against Pokemon, which, when not a joke, I have literally only seen coming from PETA

SPArcheon

@Yuuki I guess you aren't familiar enough with the plot to get what I mean. Short version: it just takes someone with enough fanaticism. Don't even need PETA

Just go to your local zealot moralist group.

You know, the same idiots that say thing like "watching Sailor Moon confuses children gender identity and make them ill"

Sadly we have plenty of those there.

Yuuki

Fair enough, I suppose. Either way, Palworld probably just isn't on their radar. Even if it's selling like hotcakes now, it likely hasn't made any news outside of the game-osphere.

On a tangent, I saw Miyazaki's newest movie, The Boy and the Heron, earlier this week. Man, that was a thematic mess.

SPArcheon

expectations change your perceptions a lots. It really depends on what you were looking for, really.

Japan animation... it is weird.

You have plain stories that looks complicated but are just "long" and full of events.

and then movies that look like simple but have like 10 different layers of reading.

I always love to mention that weird thing that is "Lum: the forever"

Ronan

15:51

@Yuuki I thought it was generally consistently about the futility of holding on to the past, I'd be interested in your thoughts though

As someone who can handle a bit of symbolism without their head exploding

Yuuki

@Ronan Maybe "mess" is overstating it, "disjointed" might be better. Each part of the movie seemed coherent and was emotionally consistent, but they didn't go well together.

It was kinda like watching clouds, tbh. I can make out a shape for any particular cloud but they aren't related despite being in the same space.

Ronan

Hmm I can see that. I think all the sections were thematically related though. They don't exactly follow on from each other though

Yuuki

Mahito finally calling Natsuko his "mother" would normally be a huge emotional catharsis, but... for what? There was never any real tension between the two outside her saying she hated him literally five seconds before. It was like a bass drop without the build-up.

Ronan

I guess it's like, he was spending the story up to that point looking for his mother, when actually he already had someone to call mother. But yeah I don't think it completely stuck the landing

Yuuki

It's weird, the themes are there, the scenes are there but there's just little to no narrative. It was like watching a clip show of nominees for Best Animated Short Film.

Ronan

16:08

I was saying it's vibes based storytelling after I watched it

Yuuki

@Ronan Yeah, I agree with that.

Ronan

I don't have an issue with it personally. But I can understand being annoyed by that

Yuuki

It's a different mindset certainly. And I can appreciate that each "clip" worked on its own (provided you intuited the context) and the animation was technically brilliant (as always).

Ronan

16:26

I'm just flashing back to when Bao was released and people didn't realise it was a dream sequence

Yuuki

I am on record, in this chatroom even, saying that Bao was excellent.

Ronan

Yup. I remember us talking about it being great and people struggling with basic storytelling techniques

SPArcheon

16:42

Give a story, someone will find some bad worldview for it.

According to some, Bao represents integration in Western culture by someone raised with Eastern tradition/ideals.

So.. basically it would mean something like "Asian mom bad, come to us America"

(one of such references if you were wondering)

Short version: it could have done better without the "Asian VS West" thematic.

... it is not like people in other countries don't act that exact way.

Sepia Lazers 2.0

2

Q: 2023: a year in moderation

It’s that time of the year again! As we wave goodbye to last year and welcome the new one, we have a tradition of sharing moderation stats for the preceding calendar year. As most of you here might be aware, sites on the Stack Exchange network are moderated somewhat differently to other sites on...

Yuuki

Lol, I didn't see "East vs. West" at all. At least, not in the sense that one culture is better than the other.

As a quasi-second generation immigrant (technically I'm first-gen, but I came over young enough that I'm functionally second-gen), there was a major theme of a growing cultural divide between parent and child but not of superiority.

SPArcheon

17:04

@Yuuki I think they mean that it can come out like only "Asian mom" is (toxic level) hyper-protective while western culture is more open and better.

As I said. I would not claim that but I would have avoided adding nationalities in the mix because I would have expected exactly that kind of reaction.

Basically meaning that the robot is probably missing just the head

Ronan

I think that gets the development of the story the wrong way around, I don't think they were wanting to tell a generational divide story and decided to use a first/second generation asian immigrant family. But rather they want to tell a story about their experience growing up as a second generation asian immigrant. Which becomes a story about generational divides

SPArcheon

@Ronan Probably true. My point is that it can too easily be twisted into "this is an Asian immigrant problem, we west know better"

(kinda ironic, I know, since apparently the author was speaking from first hand experiences and just wanted to put her struggles in animated form)

Yuuki

So the solution is to not tell stories relevant to minorities. Cultural integration and differences as a topic is inescapable in minority-centric stories, so to avoid including it in any way shape or form because it can be manipulated means that those narratives must be excluded wholesale.

SPArcheon

not what I said either. I just think that it could have worked even as generic child and generic mom, but that is probably me overthinking.

Yuuki

It's not what you said, but that's a conclusion that can be drawn.

Ronan

17:14

@SPArcheon By generic you mean american though

SPArcheon

@Ronan why?

Ronan

What do you mean then?

SPArcheon

I mean that the same core issue could happen with any child and any mom. And that the actual short can be easily twisted into claiming that this kind of issue is specific to Asian culture. Which is not.

Yuuki

Hodes even says in the article you posted that it's impossible to control other people's behavior, the best you can do is make it difficult to twist your intention. And if you watched Bao to the end, you see that the credits tell a story of the kid and his girlfriend learning aspects of his and his mother's culture.

You know, not rejecting the "old, outdated" culture.

Ronan

@SPArcheon Yeah, but describe this "any child and any mom" without just saying the story would have been better if all the characters were americans

SPArcheon

17:21

@Ronan American? Well... depends on your own media I guess. It is easy to say that Usagi in Sailor Moon is clearly a girl in Japan, and your average Craig of the Creek is probably living somewhere in America. Others, may be less clear. It is indeed hard to do. Especially if you have to show some background that kinda requires you to contextualize the scene.

Yuuki

I guess the point being driven at is: what do you mean by "generic"?

Ronan

@SPArcheon Assuming that this versions is still being made by Pixar, an american company

SPArcheon

@Yuuki let me try with another example, probably makes it a little clearer.

I assume you never saw a movie called "Nobody Knows"?

Nobody Knows (2004 film)

Nobody Knows (誰も知らない, Dare mo Shiranai) is a 2004 Japanese drama film based on the 1988 Sugamo child abandonment case. The film is written, produced, directed and edited by Hirokazu Kore-eda, and it stars Yuya Yagira, Ayu Kitaura, and Hiei Kimura.Nobody Knows tells the story of four children: Akira, Kyōko, Shigeru, and Yuki, who are aged between five and twelve years old. They are half-siblings, with each of them having different fathers. Because the three youngest children are in the apartment illegally without the landlord's knowledge or permission, they cannot go outside or be seen in th...

I have. And I have may Japanese friends and many from the country I live in

Ask to the Japanese, this is a movie about the tragedy of four children abandoned by their mother.

Yet ask to some of the ones in my country and they will say this is a "typical Japanese only issue"

I fear that someone watching Bao will think the same.

As how to solve this.. I am actually unsure.

So yep, I don't have a clear answer to "what do you mean by "generic"?"

Only a general felling that the fact that some will see the issue shown in the short as "their problem"

Ronan

Your two options are improve people's media literacy and empathy, or never include minorities in american media

Yuuki

Seems like the problem of over-sanitization. At the end of the day, you can't guarantee that everyone will get the right interpretation (or the interpretation you're aiming for) out of any media you make, that doesn't mean you shouldn't make anything.

Ronan

17:30

That's a much less antagonistic way of phrasing it, thanks @Yuuki

Yuuki

17:49

It's far too easy to interpret things in bad faith, so it's really not worth catastrophizing over bad faith interpretations. Take the new God of War games, for example. I could easily say that it's the story of how you can be forgiven for a literal murder spree as long as you then "settle down" to have a wife and child. You don't even have to stop killing, as Kratos clearly doesn't during the new games.

If you have played the games though, you know that this in fact one of the themes/topics they cover in the narrative.

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