The Bridge

C. Ross

22:00

goodnight

FallenAngelEyes

night badp

Arda Xi

good night @badp

tzenes

if you have gaming questions for chat, please ask them

night @badp

alexanderpas

:123481 soetimes it can help, but in the cases where it can't it should not be used. on meta you can read back your posts more easily and explain in detail, chat is usually fire and forget (in 10 minutes.)

Arda Xi

Meta won't help here seeing as it's going back and forth really quickly

that would simply translate to a flood of comments

alexanderpas

22:03

or several answers, where each answer can be voted upon to reach consensus.

Arda Xi

:123508 Sorry. Answer flood with a comment flood each.

tzenes

honestly I think we were just having fun with arguing, I don't really seen the need to stop unless their is gaming content to discuss

alexanderpas

if there is an answer flood, people are not reading and/or the answers are bad.

the best discussions are done written on a non-real time way.

Arda Xi

if this would be a good topic for meta, it would be a question asked here with an answer, and no back-and-forth

tzenes

I think you're both wrong

Arda Xi

22:07

me too, but I thought we were just having fun

alexanderpas

example: scientists vs. theists -- some theists can spew so many lies in two minutes, it takes the scientist 2 days to reply properly, with all references, which the theist will not read, but instead, the theist will come with completely unrelated points to make his point.

Arda Xi

:123542 so we're theists

tzenes

I think that's a little offensive to theists

alexanderpas

why do you think certain theist like TV-debates?

tzenes

certainly there are many people who believe in god who take time and consider position

as there are many people who do not believe in god who will come up with completely unrelated points

:123549 I think attention whores like TV-debates

alexanderpas

22:11

:123547 note the certain theists and some theists.

tzenes

sorry, where did you say certain theists?

Arda Xi

:123550 there is a certain likelihood for specific people to be theists

" some theists can spew so many lies in two minutes"

Mana

now is game-rec dead?

tzenes

some is different than certain

some implies its characteristic of the group, certain does not

Arda Xi

no it doesn't

tzenes

22:12

also, hehehe "snot"

well thats your opinion, and you're entitled to it

Arda Xi

some people do this does not imply that 'people' do this

tzenes

that's true

Arda Xi

some just means a subset does it

tzenes

but they do imply it is characteristic of the group

Arda Xi

no

tzenes

22:13

yes

Arda Xi

do I really have to quote a dictionary?

alexanderpas

it is a characteristic of the subset of the group.

Arda Xi

some
[suhm; unstressed suhm] Show IPA
–adjective
1.
being an undetermined or unspecified one: Some person may object.
2.
(used with plural nouns) certain: Some days I stay home.
3.
of a certain unspecified number, amount, degree, etc.: to some extent.
4.
unspecified but considerable in number, amount, degree, etc.: We talked for some time. He was here some weeks.

tzenes

feel free, since I'm discussing connotation its irrelevant

Arda Xi

the connotation doesn't exist

some means certain

tzenes

22:14

as I said, that's your opinion

Arda Xi

connotation always is

tzenes

technically certain means some, not the other way around

Arda Xi

in this case, it only means what @alexanderpas made it to mean

in Gaming on Meta Stack Overflow Chat, Aug 25 at 22:14, by alexanderpas

it is a characteristic of the subset of the group.

alexanderpas

some [...] 2. (used with plural nouns) certain

tzenes

some is a collective noun

Arda Xi

22:15

the connotation is @alexanderpas's alone

tzenes

that's not entirely true

connotations are shared across culture

alexanderpas

theists is a plural noun.

Arda Xi

so what I say means whatever you decide it means?

then arguing is definitely pointless

tzenes

:123600 thats usually how interpretation works

alexanderpas

do we need to go ask on english.stackexchange.com ?

Arda Xi

22:17

unless the person in question explains himself

if I say "If I say some it means a subset" you can't say "you meant the entire group"

tzenes

very well, @alexanderpas do you think quick responses are characteristic of theists in a way that is not characteristic of non-theists

alexanderpas

quick responses are characteristic of some theists when they experience content that goes against their view of the world (note the some, and the area qualifier.)

tzenes

that's not what I asked

FallenAngelEyes

I'd replace "theists" with "people" there :P

Arda Xi

:123632 yes it is

tzenes

22:21

I asked "do you think quick responses are characteristic of theists in a way that is not characteristic of non-theists "

Fallen's answer is "no," he believes this is not characteristic of either group more than the other

I was interested in alexander's answer

Arda Xi

@alexanderpas ik zou echt niet weten wat je zou kunnen zeggen in het engels dat niet anders geinterpreteerd kan worden..

tzenes

you could say: yes

Arda Xi

but then you might say you interpret that as "yes, but I don't"

apparently

tzenes

I'm not trying to argue the point, I'm trying to determine his opinion

Arda Xi

yes, but according to you he cannot unambiguously express his opinion

tzenes

22:25

as to my question, yes he can

a simple yes or no would suffice

Arda Xi

in Gaming on Meta Stack Overflow Chat, Aug 25 at 22:24, by Arda Xi

but then you might say you interpret that as "yes, but I don't"

alexanderpas

Quick responses are characteristic of some theists, who, unlike atheists, have a non-standard world-view (i.e. 6000 year old earth), so, when presented with things that goes against this are quick to respond, where atheists, with a standard worldview, are unable to have a quick response.

tzenes

see, that wasn't so hard

alexanderpas

and, yes or no would be a quick response, and therefor, a logical fallacy

Arda Xi

that's what he's been saying all along

tzenes

22:27

or mean you're a theist

Arda Xi

:123676 only if you completely disregard what he just said, as I predicted

Grace Note

NGYARGH! I'm here.

alexanderpas

O hai!

tzenes

@arda that was a quick response

Arda Xi

:123680 so?

Grace Note

22:28

Hey @alex

Arda Xi

@GraceNote A sane person. Yay!

tzenes

Are you a theist then?

Grace Note

Let me guess: badp is already gone and the discussion I was summoned for is over?

Arda Xi

:123685 No, I am not.

:123686 Correct.

Grace Note

Hey, @Arda

alexanderpas

22:28

I'm a Pastafarian.

tzenes

hmmm, too bad, it sort of disprove his statement...

Arda Xi

:123691 It wasn't a statement, it was an opinion.

Grace Note

So, do I still need to explain it all?

Arda Xi

:123691 And that wasn't his opinion either

He still said some

tzenes

true, it was an opinion, but that doesn't mean its not a statement

Arda Xi

22:29

which means, not all

tzenes

he said some for theists, not for atheists

Arda Xi

:123697 it's still not what he said

tzenes

if you say some for thing one and not for thing two what is the logical implication?

alexanderpas

A includes B, does not mean B includes A

Arda Xi

why did you put me in a position where I'm defending someone else's opinion?

:123702 that some was implied?

tzenes

22:30

I'm not saying his opinion is wrong

Grace Note

@Arda You tend to end up defending the oddest of things, I've noticed

Arda Xi

:123706 yes you are

tzenes

I believe the convention is the opposite, but I'd have to double check

Arda Xi

:123707 I guess I'm just way too confrontational :(

:123706 chat.meta.stackoverflow.com/transcript/message/123691

Grace Note

@Arda You once defended my viewpoint from me.

alexanderpas

22:31

:123706 you are unable to say someones opinion is wrong, you could say you disagree however.

tzenes

Some dogs go to the movies, while cats do not?

Arda Xi

:123714 But you're sane!

tzenes

I said it disproves the statement, not that your opinion is wrong

Grace Note

That I am.

Arda Xi

The statement was the opinion

tzenes

22:32

"Some dogs go to the movies, while cats do not?" Does this imply some cats or all cats?

Arda Xi

:123719 Saying it disproves the opinion is saying the opinion is wrong

:123729 Depends on how you interpret it, as I've learnt today

Grace Note

And curses! This means I no longer have a reason to link that image or explain an example of a specific question that I abandoned asking!

tzenes

no, it disproves the statement does not imply the opinion is wrong

Arda Xi

:123734 So disproving something isn't saying it's wrong?

tzenes

@Grace would a question which helps only one person be inappropriate?

Arda Xi

22:33

What part of disproving am I not understanding here

tzenes

:123740 opinions can't be wrong

Grace Note

Well, it depends, @tzenes

Arda Xi

:123744 Then how can you disprove them

tzenes

that you, that is sufficient

alexanderpas

You can't have a wrong opinion, you can merely have an opinion, that is not true.

Grace Note

22:33

Let's take two examples.

tzenes

Alexander understands it Arda

Arda Xi

I don't see how wrong and untrue are not the same thing

Grace Note

"How do I get up there?" is a question with limited audience, possibly only one.

tzenes

is that MMT?

Grace Note

No, this is Bunny Must Die

Arda Xi

22:34

:123751 Wrong actually has 'not true' as its definition.

tzenes

I was going to say it looked different

alexanderpas

wrong = not right, not true = false.

Arda Xi

:123768 Wrong = Not correct or true

Grace Note

This question will probably get 0 votes, but it stands as a simple enough question that not only can be answered, but fits on the site.

alexanderpas

the association is different.

Grace Note

22:35

Compare a question I considered asking, about Final Fantasy XII

Mana

"What the heck is Yuna wearing in FFX-2?"

"Don't these girls get cold?"

tzenes

right and wrong are moral judgments, true and false are objective facts

alexanderpas

Good question, for the lolz

Grace Note

I'm having difficulties defeating the Behemoth King, not limited to the fact that I: probably am underleveled (despite defeating the Hell Wyrm), refuse to use Quickenings, am running an impromptu class challenge, and use Active Time Battle.

Besides the extremely limited audience to both questions, the other aspect both share is the fact that neither can really be retooled to a more general question without completely failing to address the author's need

alexanderpas

(I should be playing worms BTW)

Grace Note

22:38

The former because there's nothing more general possible, the latter because it would dilute the applicability of all answers to what I really need.

tzenes

I think badp would be satisfied with that answer

Arda Xi

:123784 Wait, wasn't @badp arguing against me?

tzenes

no, he was arguing that a question that helped one person should be allowed

and I agreed with him

Arda Xi

and it seems to me @GraceNote does too

tzenes

now I don't think that's the only criteria

Grace Note

22:39

Neither is a "good" question, but I would still ask the first one. The latter one just isn't worth anyone's time to work on, while the former is an idle curiosity more than a personal issue

tzenes

only that the number of people helped by the question is not the determining factor

Arda Xi

so then I'm the only one dissatisfied? good.

tzenes

yes, I wouldn't say having one person find the answer useful is not an ideal quality

Grace Note

@tzenes On a tangent, how did you defeat the first boss of MMT?

tzenes

Are you kidding? I got half way through the first level before I ran out of lives

Grace Note

22:42

Oooh

tzenes

also there was a part where I came to a cliff I couldn't cross

I'll put up a question about it later when I get home

Grace Note

Make sure to include a screenshot!

3

tzenes

I have a screenshot and everythign

haha, yes

Mana

MMT?

tzenes

Mukashi Mukashi Arutokoro ni Totetsumonaku Naka no Warui Twintail no Shimai Himesama ga Irasshaimashitatosa

Mana

22:48

oh

yes

MMT

Arda Xi

of course. who doesn't know that game

Mana

hm

the only place I can find that mentions that is the Gaming site

is this game free or something?

Arda Xi

I was being ironic ;-)

Mana

I know

Grace Note

むかしむかしあるところにとてつもなく中の悪いツインテイルの姉妹姫様がいらっしゃいましたとさ

No, it's not free

tzenes

22:51

its shareware I think

Arda Xi

I'd love to tell my friends: "Hey, you should really play Mukashi Mukashi Arutokoro ni Totetsumonaku Naka no Warui Twintail no Shimai Himesama ga Irasshaimashitatosa"

tzenes

you can find it here: daisessen.com/releases/mmt.html

Grace Note

Oh, huh, never noticed the download section before

They didn't have that before

tzenes

thats where I got it from

Grace Note

Ah well, I'm still going to buy Lethal Crisis. It will be worth every penny

I wonder...

This says "trial"

So I double wonder, with a strong inkling that I'm not going to get what I need.

tzenes

22:55

its shareware

you have to purchase for full game

Grace Note

I always figured that being able to download a trial was a simple courtesy, not a category of ware.

tzenes

shareware was a business model popular in the 90s where they gave you the game, but most of it was locked and you could purchase a key to unlock it

piracy largely destroyed that model

Grace Note

Mmm

Arda Xi

:123889 Now they call those demos.

tzenes

a demo usually isn't the full game with functionality locked out

alexanderpas

22:59

you were allowed to share the shareware, so everyone who got it, could buy a key.

Arda Xi

:123893 shareware usually isn't either

tzenes

the key part of shareware was that you actually had the full game

Arda Xi

Doom only had the first level

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