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16:00
I'm going to work, but try this in my absence:
6
Q: What makes a question "Good?"

tzenesWe've had a lot of discussion on this topic, but its largely spread amongst other threads. Grace first proposed the idea here, but to date, all discussion has been centered around whether or not certain questions should be allowed. I'm not asking for your opinion on which question are good or b...

subjective! argumentative! CLOSE!
7
subjective and argumentative questions are allowed on meta
I was kidding <.<
but that was funny
and I laughed
Gnoupi
it is visible.
16:02
to be honest, when I skim these threads I wish there was a character limit on posts
maybe not 140, but definitely not 4000 :/
16:28
@badp ouch
Do you think we're gaining users quickly enough?
hm.
Jin
Jin
16:50
hey guys
hi Jin
Jin
Jin
gaming room is so active :)
Jin
Jin
i'm getting ready to make a post on meta.gaming, about some design ideas for the future(final) theme for the gaming site
i've already posted one for webapps site. see:
23
Q: Design Ideas for Web Applications Site (updated with screenshots)

JinHi all. I'm Jin and I'll be working on the designs for the Stack Exchange sites as they graduate from the beta phase. Each site will have its own unique theme that will reflects its topic. However, all sites will share quite a bit of common elements so they feel like they're part of the Stack Exc...

the webapp one is very... webappy
Jin
Jin
16:51
Before I make the post, is there any gaming relates sites that have designs you love?
@badp yep that was the intention :)
teamliquid.net
I'd prefer minimalism
there are a lot of flashy gaming sites, an they're almost always bad
Jin
Jin
yeah. i think the key is to find that balance
the ones with clean, minimalistic designs tend to be the better once
like look at gamefaqs
Jin
Jin
i like minimalism a lot. but at the same time i feel there should be small touches that make the design more "game related."
that site looks like it was designed before http 1.0
Jin
Jin
16:53
so what design elements make a site a "gaming site?"
i noticed a lot have dark themes
the problem is, sites that try to make themselves look like "gaming sites" tend to be the bad ones
I think some pixelation can go a long way
when I look at a gaming site, the less "gaming" it looks usually the better reaction I have
yeah, some pixelart in certain elements :D
I'll give you an example of a really bad one: ign.com
Jin
Jin
16:55
i think there are two types of gaming sites. 1) promotional ones tend to have flashy graphics, but poor usability. the idea is to WOW you. 2) forum sites, they need to be cleaner and more functional for the long run.
its got images everywhere, and chrome looking finish on the buttons
compare that to: teamliquid.net
a smooth interface with a subtle gradiant
tbh teamliquid and ign aren't too different
to me, its night and day
:121533 too much default vBulletin/phpbb
I don't even have to read ign to know which is good and bad
16:56
the real difference is ign has advertisements, teamliquid doesn't
I think the difference is the images
Jin
Jin
also keep in mind, i'm not changing the layout/structure of the existing site. it's more of a "skin" job
yeah, SO's structure's great.
gonintendo.com has done a nice job on their theme
sure, ESL's black white and blue logo blends well in teamliquid's homepage
so it's also luck :P
16:58
@badp since they make those images, its not luck
the esl logo is a different color scheme
I think red and black
err
that's the traditional esl logo
Jin
Jin
not a gaming site, but i like my friend Soh's site for its dark theme. something i've been thinking about using for gaming.
black white and blue
Red, (Light)Green and black, are the traditional gaming colors, combine this with a white background to keep it clean.
17:01
yeah, dark and greenish could work, I'm kinda afraid that would put it too far away from the other "trilogy" sites
Jin
Jin
@badp i wouldn't worry about that. i think the same layout and structure are enough to convey the same "Branding"
replying to your "poor design" question: epicadvice.com
don't make it too dark, otherwise we're missing out on the newer generation of gamers.
Jin
Jin
i'm not saying i like that exact color palette, i'm just saying i like how it's dark and also polished.
it burns my eyes
Jin
Jin
17:02
i like the pixelated treatment idea for flairs of the site.
the fact it had to put the accepted/answered/unanswered legend on the side bar is quite significative imho
Downloading Worms!
Jin
Jin
i've been so busy i'm neglecting starcraft2 /qq
i think if bliz ever makes Universe of Starcraft MMO, then it's all over for me...
lol, design branding for apple
Jin
Jin
u didn't have to remind me... :)
17:06
done :)
Jin
Jin
well, only for sites that make it out of beta.
of course i hope all of our beta sites do!
:121590 they will release World of Starcraft, after they release Starcraft 3
Jin
Jin
@alexanderpas that's when I bid farewell to my family forever
but will they release world of world of warcraft?
Jin
Jin
i spent more time on WoW than I care to admit..
17:11
"Here I'm just gonna press Alt-Shift-7 and that's gonna make my character start scrolling through the Term of Use Agreement and End User License Agreement..."
> "the worst thing that can happen to your character is that your characters internet connection goes down... then you have to get your character on the phone and call the internet service provider"
:121631 that's a question for @tzenes
sorry, cat. <3
doesn't matter! :3
Playing Worms!
17:35
ew, I hate that question
its 100% subjective
Well, he does ask the question "What's the best?" But that's still only like 50% subjective.
he asks for what's efficient, a term he doesn't define
yeah
(I voted close too)
what's more group conventions are a matter of personal preference
17:39
If he changed it... Nevermind, I'll make a comment.
I already made one, but I'm not sure how he could possibly improve it to the point where the answer isn't: Whatever you find works
comment added.
I think there's theoretically a valid question in there, but maybe he doesn't care as much about it.
Well willfull has a good answer, but its really the answer to a completely different question: what are the methods for creating control groups
Yeah
and the second part of his answer is VERY subjective
17:43
Yeah, the question could definitely use some clarification.
or elimination
18:16
I edited this question slightly.
7
Q: How do you set your control groups?

JasonI have found that I have no problem setting my buildings as control groups, but I rarely set my army as control groups. Some people have suggested that you set your whole army as one group, and then individual unit types as others, but I never get around to this because it's so labor-intensive an...

I'm hoping that will be enough to get better answers, but only time will tell
Jin
Jin
Seems like http://gaming.stackexchange.com is really http://starcraft2.stackexchange.com
i noticed there are quite a lot of SC2 questions. but is that a problem? since SC2 is the hot game now, i think it was expected.
@Jin I think its symptomatic of a larger problem
we currently have DF and SC2 experts, but we don't have experts for things like MW2 or other games
twitter integration?
yeah, for a while now
18:34
:121925 ahem
8
A: Is it possible to know why we received badges?

Arda XiAssuming you mean callsigns, there's a full list on the Call of Duty Wiki for titles and emblems.

I could go on, but that would require more questions
@ArdaXi is our resident MW2 expert.
:121925 And Starcraft experts, TF2 experts, AoEII, AoEIII experts, but not as many people are playing those
:122032 1, and it's a Steam question not an mw2 question
@tzenes Awesome blog post by the way. I'll have to try sacrifice.
wasn't on that page
@cross Its a really great single player
didn't seek to browser further
oh, I have questions set to 50 per page
its a useful option
and that's not an MW2 question per se, more an IW employee question
we can only guess
I've looked at almost every question on this site
@tzenes Why doesn't SC2 have a tag-wiki yet :P
18:42
because its a bad game and no one plays it
oh yeah, forgot that
you mean excepting the roughly 14% of our userbase
I expect 1000 words or more
I am definitely not qualified to answer that question.
I know the game, that doesn't mean I'm good at it!
no no, you said you were an expert, let's see it
I did not.. did I
18:46
:122138 , @ArdaXi is not our Jon Skeet, you are!
alright.. maybe I did implicitly
I said "we don't have mw2 experts" and you said "ahem"
2
I didn't mean to :(
:122148 little known fact, I am really really really bad at MW2
I could guess, but my answers are so affected by my skill level I doubt they'd be helpful
Jon Skeet level is two levels above expert.
Jin
Jin
18:50
he's like the Kobe beef of expert steaks.
:122160 Wouldn't that be Legendary (+2)?
Jon Skeet level is 2 levels above expert, but what is the level above expert you ask? There is no level above expert!
OT: Here at work we talk a lot about SMEs (Subject Matter Experts), but you quickly find that expertise is relative
19:36
so... wrong... a worms team wth mexican hats, called work force... I like team17!
20:07
Useful means "I actually do have this problem", not "other people also have this problem"
No, it actually does mean the latter
How, pray tell, do you prove no one else ever in the universe cannot possibly have my problem?
read the "too localised" close reason
too localized does not mention a "too narrow audience"
it mentions "too narrow situation"
20:11
oh, and I love how here we suggested to put "like <game-name-here/>" in the title and here we closed the question for that very same reason
The narrow situation is defined as, and I quote, one "not generally applicable to the worldwide audience of the internet."
:122526 "We" didn't, the asker did
if I could downvote that comment I would
> "You should. I read it and came in to tell you about Minecraft. :) – clweeks 6 hours ago"
as I said: if I could downvote that comment I would
Well, the score is 1 comment for and 0 against :P
besides, they have absolutely no meta activity, how should they know the policy?
20:14
make a comment that states you downvote the comment
Indeed the asker commented,
I truly don't care enough about that question, I'm just explaining why the other question was closed
> Wouldn't it be better to correct the question instead of closing it? – Alexander Konstantinov 43 mins ago
the first vote, actually being yours
> Whoops, sorry for the close vote - the title made the question sound much more open-ended than it actually was. – badp 11 hours ago
I wish there was a proper way to link to comments.
20:15
were we not discussing the title?
because if so I really misunderstood
Yeah, indeed I changed it to make it more specific
The original title was "Sandbox/open-world game recommendations"
I'm just saying that because one person left a comment that doesn't make it general consensus
fair enough
the general consensus seems to be "mention it or not, this question should be closed"
I don't know about that, but it is my opinion
here we must ask ourselves: is someone going to be looking for an "objective-less sandbox/open-world game with a vast procedurally-generated world which are not physics sandbox games such as Crayon Physics or Phun, but rather for those where player controls some alter-ego character; it's not important whether it will be 1st/3rd person or top-down view, 2D or 3D"
although it's funny, 153 people viewed the question, 4 people answered it and 4 people voted it closed.
@Arda: it's the bed we made for ourselves to lie in. We asked people to be specific.
20:21
My ideal answer to that question would be a list of roguelikes
since that is definitely describing roguelikes
It's not roguelikes -- roguelikes have a story; when the story ends the game is over; you can't build in roguelikes
They're all bad, and they should all be closed
that wasn't explicitly required, only preferred
torchlight has a story but the game does not end when it's finished
they garner answers that are little more than opinions
in fact it just begins
in fact, a lot of these games would apply
20:23
I'm sorry, Captain Nitpick :P (@arda)
31
Q: Games that feature procedural generation of content?

RCIXI'm looking for games that include procedurally generated content as a major feature; like all levels are generated, enemies, weapons, etc. One per answer please, and pics if you got em! Games that have been mentioned already: Diablo Dwarf Fortress Elder Scrolls II: Daggerfall, the Eufloria...

if I could destroy that question I would
:122582 don't start it if you can't handle it
@arda, if you want to troll have fun with the remainder of the internet
the asker's intention is clear
:122586 I don't mean to troll really.
20:25
Which doesn't mean you aren't trolling, since we are nitpicking.
The asker's intention is clear. The validity of the question isn't.
:122589 trolling is intentional
hold on, no its not
the asker's intentions are not clear
It looks like that awful discussion about what "open ended" means
In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into a desired emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion. Now can we stop nitpicking?
"omg but if I stand in a corner for a hour then I have choice!"
20:26
seems like the kind of question that usually leads to confrontation and argument.
@tzenes, he's looking for a game you cannot win
:122602 sub-textually?
I can't win GTA
there is no set of conditions where it goes: A WINNER IS YOU
(I haven't played GTA, so I can't comment. I commented on NFS:MW.)
You can't win DF
20:28
You can't 'win' Torchlight, still it has a well-defined story.
it is both valid and invalid.
schrödinger's answer, you don't know if it's appropriate until you propose it.
@badp I haven't played NFS:MW
I haven't played Torchlight, but does it come with an infinite number of quests?
:122615 it comes with rooms that are procedurally generated as you move through them
you can keep traversing them, with their enemies, for as long as you want
how very roguelike
@tzenes: in NFS:MW, once you defeat the final opponent and escape the final pursuit you can still roam the city, take on races you skipped and what not, but the game is essentially over. It only matters if you are going for a "100%" completion, after which there is truly nothing left to do.
Yeah, and roguelikes have an end :P
20:31
the only end implied in the definition of a roguelike is permadeath
cough ascension cough (in Nethack)
@badp in GTA I've never played the story, but I can still do things to get money, get better weapons, kill cops, buy houses, live the life of crime
:122623 I said "in the definition of a roguelike"
not "in NetHack"
things still progress, very much in the way DF does
will you two stop quibbling
I haven't seen a roguelike that continues past the "A WINNER IS YOU" screen -- rogue itself doesn't, afaik.
20:33
:122628 gladly
anyway.
The argument isn't about the definition of roguelikes
The argument is about "usefulness"
I think the Adventure mode in DF has no win conditions, though I'm not sure
oh, on the subject of usefulness I think you're both right
No, it's about the validity of the question, which in part is usefulness
20:34
I think Grace meant, it has to actually be useful to you, not theorhetically useful
DF's adventure mode is also more of a tech demo than anything else, if I remember the readme correctly
No it isn't.
shut it
both of you
no arguing over DF's adventure mode
its completely tangential
Then I don't. Fine.
Wasn't adventure mode originally the point? Before he realised everyone was playing fortress mode?
watches tzenes explode
20:35
....
What I'm trying to say is, I think you're right Badp
if the question only helps you its still useful
that said, it actually has to help you
I think grace wasn't trying to suggest otherwise (though I can't speak for her)
5
A: How large can an objective question's scope get?

Grace NoteA very important inquiry that I have oft thought about. For one start, I would generally prefer that anything which is complex would be limited to a single game. And if it must expand past a game, staying within one unit of the series is also important. It needs to be able to be found by some...

:122654 To clarify what I meant with that one, she literally suggested otherwise (unless I'm reading this wrong)
If that's your link, then you're definitely reading wrong
oh god Megaman ZX is so hard
in that case she was arguing a question that is a collection of 17 million items isn't useful to anyone ever
its too much unparsed data
it's pretty easy until the last level and then oh my god
20:39
she mentions that answers should be useful to someone
the questioner is someone....
and, nitpickingly, the asker is someone
We must open every question.
actually, nitpickingly enough, if the question isn't useful to the asker but is useful to somebody else, it's still okay :P
By that criteria we can never justify closing a question ever again.
20:40
:122673 correct
@arda good plan!
:122674 that is one criteria, not the determining factor
4
A: What makes a question "Good?"

Grace NoteI'll take the controversial stance with two criteria that I find to be of utmost importance. 1. The question has the potential to be concluded On our FAQ, we clearly state "This is a place for questions that can be answered". The meaning of this is that there exists a possible conclusion to the...

down with this closing business!
now stop being rediculous
20:40
"The ultimate goal of the site is a resource for people to find in later points - so a question that gets answers which no one wants or finds will not be a good question."
Literally my point.
it's taking us too much time.
"which no one wants"
the asker is someone
or finds
the asker will not look for the question
unless they have impaired memory I guess
later points refer to post-answering
I'm going to be honest, I search for every one of my questions
I wish flags still showed up for everybody, so I could (jokingly) star that line as "bullshit"
20:42
its faster than typing in gaming.sta and hitting tab, then clicking through
:122692 you realise what I/she means though
]I realize what you mean, I don't think you can speak for her
I'm talking about what she means
in that quote, by "finds"
and I don't see the harm in the answer only being useful to the questioner
well I see an "or" next to finds, and that usually implies both are valid on their own
except that that's what SE is based on?
20:43
but then again, I dont' know how Grace uses Ors
SE is based on spanning the information graph
Wow, intense discussion the past couple hours
answers which help only one person, still span that graph
Stack Overflow's goal as expressed by Joel Spolsky
can we kill game-rec yet
20:44
pleeeeeeeeeeeeeease
@mana, no
@Mana I really want to
"a thousand other dumb developers will benefit from my one little piece of good information."
check back in a couple hours :P
:122713 you realise you're defending it right now, right?
20:45
"he goal of a site like Stack Overflow is to somehow share the correct knowledge wherever it may be as it is scattered throughout the universe, and to cause that to be voted up and to be spread amongst us."
right, spread amongst us
@arda like I said, that's not the only qualifier
why would something that is not useful to someone be spread?
@arda "a thousand other dumb developers will benefit from my one little piece of good information." ← It's the answer, not the question the writer's talking about
:122720 SE is an ask once, read many site
20:46
because understanding the way things are is important
:122722 A question is only as good as its answers
I agree with tzenes here, if only for the fact that we cannot in any way predict what future problems people will have.
:122727 Then you can't close questions before you see its answers?
If a problem is localized to one person right now, we can't say that someone down the road won't have that same problem and go looking for an answer
2
:122730 Certain questions will always garner bad answers
20:46
:122730 A specific question getting a general answer?
@tzenes, the reversal badge respectfully disagrees :)
anyway, I know my view of the site, it is apparently not shared by anyone, so I'll just resign
too tired to argue
@badp or it exists because people vote based not on the value of the question but the quality of its presentation
For example, back when I bought a video card for my PC in '03, the motherboard wouldn't recognize the card. It took a couple hours of a few people helping me google, and we found a case where someone had the exact same mobo and videocard setup as I did and described their problem and how to fix it.
It's okay @Arda, if you want to be on the majority again we can discuss first-person-shooter vs fps :P
20:48
Even though it was an extremely narrow problem, it still helped someone down the line.
The problem is that I don't think we're getting any closer to a concensus.
TBH, @Fallen, that question is not so narrow
There were other factors, but I'm leaving them out for simplicity's sake
oh, okay.
if voting trend were an indication of the value of the question then the site would be nothing but game-recs and discussions on the pros and cons of races of starcraft
which, btw, is a terrible question
:122751 that's what you're promoting, that's what I seek to prevent.
@badp because they're infallable? for some reason
:122756 no, you just thing that a single factor determines the value of a question, this is also false
I don't?
Yes, I know, both of my questions there are webapp-rec, but that's because I can't find any other use for that site
because a question helps only one person is not sufficient for keeping it open
but because it only helps one person is not sufficient for closing either
20:51
then subjectivity isn't either
there must be other factors
or just being a duplicate
subjectivity is
some qualities are
some qualities are not
why would subjectivity be one, and too localised not be one?
:122765 lack of a place to dump your garbage doesn't mean here is a good place
:122775 too localised is a reason to close
20:52
well then, that's all I'm saying
well then we agree
but it helping only one person is not
that's "too localised"
I've got a non-rec question at web apps
3
Q: How do I cancel Google voice?

McKayI would like to cancel my account so that it doesn't exist any longer. How do I do that?

how is "one person" not narrow?
@ArdaXi no it is not
20:53
how?
because the fact that it helps one person does not mean that it will only help one person
I am proposing only one person
are you prescient?
yeah, that one didn't deserve a star
I guess that the whole problem is that nobody seems to understand my point
To be honest, I think we're really getting ourselves excessively worked up on this kind of problems.
20:55
I think the problem is that game-recs are bad
and we need a way to kill them
I know that whenever I have voted too localized, it's been on the grounds of time, such as questions/speculation will be moot once a game is released and all the information is fully available
3
I'm coming up with ways you reject
take your time
why bother?
maaaaaaaaaan
20:56
because the issue is important to you
of course if you don't care, don't bother
You know what the real problem is? We don't have enough real questions to answer and waste time in meta discussions!
I mean, why bother, I'm not getting my point across either way
Go ask some quality question, march! :P
@Arda failure is not a reason to give up
if the only way to achieve your goal is to get your point across, and people don't listen, that is a reason to give up
20:58
failure is a reason to adapt.
I'm adapting from 'attempting' to 'not attempting'
no, its a reason to change tactics

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