The Bridge

Alok

00:00

@GnomeSlicE independent/unrelated? english.stackexchange.com/questions/12219/…

LessPop_MoreFizz

@GnomeSlicE when I refer to an argument as orthogonal, I mean that I am acknowledging, or at least, not contesting the validity of the argument, but disputing it's relevance to the specific point.

user2334

status-completed: bam

user2334

The only issue now is what to tag it: it's Rage, but that answers the question by way of tagging

LessPop_MoreFizz

Which is to say, I think @MarkTrapp is right to raise concerned regarding the quality of the questions I initially cited in my meta post, but I don't think it's really germane to the larger discussion of the sort of question with which I was concerned when I made my meta post.

user2334

to wit: i think this question could be reopened

Alok

00:02

@MarkTrapp check the edit history & comments? @pixel already posted its Rage way back

GnomeSlicE

0

A: "Here is a thing. Look at the thing. Do you see the thing? I would like to know what this Thing is Called." A plea for sanity

What game is Jesse playing in Breaking Bad? If you take away the stuff about the television show from this question, what you're left with is: It looks to me like a first person shooter. The enemy are bald guys with a sickle. Some of them also wear scarfs that cover the lowest half of their ...

pixel

WOAH, you're voting to open an identify this game question?

OrigamiRobot

@MarkTrapp I think we should either follow the FAQ or change it. Don't reopen this question with the FAQ the way it currently is.

pixel

WOW hypocrites.

user2334

@Alok What the answer is irrelevant to the discussion or what I'm concerned about, which is what to tag it and how the question could be revised to be more like the type of question LessPop talked about in his meta post

user2334

00:03

Which it now is now that I've added a screenshot

user2334

@OrigamiRobot Even after my revision?

GnomeSlicE

@Alok I rolled it back because... we don't usually tag based on answers, but mostly because I didn't realize 'RAGE' was the name of the game and that the question had been answered, I thought someone was just pissed at the question.

OrigamiRobot

@MarkTrapp "Requests for game identification"

GnomeSlicE

@OrigamiRobot No details.

OrigamiRobot

That is what the FAQ says is not allowed and that is what this question is.

user2334

00:05

@OrigamiRobot Which is tempered by LessPop's meta question. It doesn't suffer the same issues ITG questions do which got them banned.

OrigamiRobot

@MarkTrapp So change the FAQ to reflect this exception.

This is not an opinion on the question itself. I just don't think we should openly conflict with the FAQ

Alok

@MarkTrapp I was just referencing your comment on what to tag it as - pixel & GnomeSlice probably have the same question as well. Re the meta post, imho the lack of a screenshot should severely hurt its chances - and no, I'd rather not see others go hunt down screenies and edit them in just to salvage it

Lazers

0

Q: How is maximum number of affixes affected by difficulty / act / iLvl?

Today I was farming Act II on normal difficulty with 250% magic find bonus trying to find some decent rares. Of 25-30 rare items that I found all armor items had 4 affixes and weapons had 4 to 5 affixes. I know that items can have up to 6 affixes (source), but apparently on lower levels the lim...

diablo-3

GnomeSlicE

@MarkTrapp I hate to be the one to bring it up, but what about identify-this-game?

LessPop_MoreFizz

@Alok I'm of the opinion that being able to point directly to a timecode in a widely available video is a perfectly acceptable alternative to a screenshot.

user2334

00:08

@OrigamiRobot Or we can not blindly follow one minority interpretation of the FAQ when the interoperation has already been addressed as being faulty

user2334

@GnomeSlicE No. The tag is dead. Long dead the identify-this-game tag

pixel

@MarkTrapp @LessPop_MoreFizz can you clarify before I jump in feet first like normal, that you're suggesting that ITG where the game can be identified is acceptable?

GnomeSlicE

@MarkTrapp Hah, well, just a suggestion.

fbueckert

@pixel Yeah...this sets a bad precedent.

user2334

@pixel Read LessPop's answer. it's more nuanced than that. I would suggest not jumping in regardless, considering you rushed to call us hypocrites before understanding what's going on

GnomeSlicE

00:09

@pixel It's not the same kind of thing.

pixel

@fbueckert those were the words I was going to use in fairness

@MarkTrapp can you link it to save the usual misunderstanding?

GnomeSlicE

@LessPop_MoreFizz Agreed, with your comment.

user2334

15

Q: "Here is a thing. Look at the thing. Do you see the thing? I would like to know what this Thing is Called." A plea for sanity

identify-this-game was a Bad Tag. It was applied to Bad Questions. It is gone forever, and I could not be happier. But it appears, that we have been throwing some babies out with our admittedly filthy bathwater. So, before I move on, I want to talk for a second about why identify-this-game is b...

discussion allowed-questions identify-this-game

user2334

s/answer/question/ whatever

OrigamiRobot

@MarkTrapp What minority interpretation? This is a request for game identification. That is exactly what the FAQ says is not allowed.

fbueckert

00:11

@OrigamiRobot Well, in fairness, I understand why we crossed off identify-this-game questions.

pixel

@MarkTrapp thanks

OrigamiRobot

@fbueckert Again, this is not an opinion on whether or not the question itself is worth reopening.

GnomeSlicE

@OrigamiRobot This is like the font question.

pixel

My stance on this particular subject as widely discussed previously is that I actually like ITG questions, but the problem is that if you reopen this one then your hate towards me regarding the Pokemon fonts makes you bad people

user2334

@OrigamiRobot Blindly following the FAQ without understanding why ITG was considered off-topic is crap. Gaming does it way too often. LessPop's question addresses that. If you're going to use the FAQ as the only measure by which to judge whether something's off-topic, you're doing it wrong. Horribly, horribly wrong. That's not how SE works.

OrigamiRobot

00:12

@GnomeSlicE It really isn't.

Alok

@LessPop_MoreFizz Its likely saying 'what font is used in Diablo?' - its there throughout the game, but is better off included in the game. Though majority views game-related questions on anything 'not a game' as OT, so this is probably a bad example.

OrigamiRobot

@MarkTrapp I am a new user. I see this question asking for identification. Cool, I am going to ask my own. Wait, it was closed. Off-topic? But why is that other one open? I don't get it.

GnomeSlicE

@OrigamiRobot I disagree.

Alok

@GnomeSlicE lmao at the reasoning :D. I actually thought it was a valid rollback since people who know the game won't ever search for that question

OrigamiRobot

@GnomeSlicE I absolutely refuse to talk about font question with you. No offense.

pixel

00:15

@MarkTrapp can we pick up the conversation we were having the other night, where I was asking for you to clarify Arqade's scope? I'm more confused now than I was after that conversation...

user2334

@OrigamiRobot That's what comments are for. The FAQ is a descriptive cheat sheet to keep new users on the straight and narrow so they don't have to read all the ensuing meta discussions. It was never meant to capture every type of question and it doesn't apply in 100% of the cases. If we can identify a question that is answerable and doesn't suffer the same issues that ITG questions had we shouldn't be closing it.

GnomeSlicE

@OrigamiRobot None taken.

user2334

Or rather, we should be re-opening it.

OrigamiRobot

@MarkTrapp The comment being "This is off topic as per the FAQ"

pixel

@MarkTrapp if that's the case, the default action on all other ITG questions should be to comment asking for more information, rather than voting to close

user2334

00:16

@OrigamiRobot Don't leave comments like that. They're pure crap.

OrigamiRobot

The only thing I am trying to say is that reopening this question with the current FAQ just makes site policy even more confusing

pixel

And the tag wiki should be reinstated so these questions can be correctly tagged when raised, we could even go the extra mile and detail within the tag wiki that we require a certain level of clarity otherwise the question will be closed

Alok

Soo - what do votes on meta.gaming.stackexchange.com/a/5113/25150 represent; vote up means reopen? close? lets discuss this?

OrigamiRobot

@MarkTrapp I know all this stuff.

I understand the arguments for reopening this question.

user2334

@OrigamiRobot It seems like you're approaching it from the wrong position, which is "the FAQ is law". Only veterans think that. New users don't think that. We condition new users to think that by leaving crap comments like "This is off-topic, see the FAQ" like seeing the FAQ is going to give them a complete picture of how SE works.

LessPop_MoreFizz

00:19

@Alok All of the above!

pixel

Who renamed to MarkTrapp and where is the real one?

GnomeSlicE

@MarkTrapp It's still a good idea for them to read it.

Alok

@pixel starred!

OrigamiRobot

@MarkTrapp No, I'm approaching this from a standpoint of "This question is exactly what the FAQ says is not allowed." If we are going to reopen this question, the FAQ needs to be clarified.

I am not talking about what the reasoning behind the FAQ is, I am talking about what the FAQ says

user2334

@GnomeSlicE Yes, but only as a set of basic guidelines to get them started. If, instead, we were leaving comments on crap ITG questions like, "Hey, this question is really vague and we've found SE is terrible for these types of memory questions so I'm so sorry, but we can't help you", new users would almost certainly understand why their question was closed and not some other question that only superficially looks like an ITG question wasn't.

2

GnomeSlicE

00:22

@MarkTrapp This, I agree with.

OrigamiRobot

If a new user can't go by the FAQ, what is the point of the FAQ?

user2334

But when we say "ITG questions are off-topic" like that means something to new users, they start to make their own rules about what that means and start to match other non-closed questions to it

LessPop_MoreFizz

@GnomeSlicE Says the guy who's proud of not having read the faq.

@OrigamiRobot It's a guideline, not a set of rules.

GnomeSlicE

@LessPop_MoreFizz I didn't say I was proud of it.

I just figured everything out as I went.

LessPop_MoreFizz

A new user won't get in trouble following the FAQ.

@GnomeSlicE And yet you brag about this fact in chat every time it comes up.

OrigamiRobot

00:23

Again, I know all this.

GnomeSlicE

@LessPop_MoreFizz I do not

...Please don't cite it.

My point was that people don't have the read the FAQ to become high-rep users on the site.

LessPop_MoreFizz

@GnomeSlicE I'm laughing too hard to go searching for a reference. Congragulations, you've diffused my righteous fury.

pixel

Can I ask, what is the difference in the stars?

OrigamiRobot

Jul 15 at 3:49, by GnomeSlicE

@AshleyNunn I haven't read the FAQ.

pixel

yellow = me, solid black = somebody else, what about hollow black stars?

OrigamiRobot

00:24

Jul 3 at 19:07, by GnomeSlicE

@fbueckert I've never read the FAQ.

GnomeSlicE

@pixel The hollow one is pinned, it will always appear at the top of the list until unpinned.

It's like a bulletin.

OrigamiRobot

Feb 17 at 15:22, by GnomeSlice

@GraceNote Didn't know, never read the FAQ.

pixel

high rep users or mods only?

GnomeSlicE

@OrigamiRobot Shuddup!

@pixel Room owners.

OrigamiRobot

@LessPop_MoreFizz No worries, I got it.

user2334

00:25

@OrigamiRobot It largely doesn't matter what the FAQ says as long as it doesn't say things that are blatantly wrong. For one, hardly anyone ever reads it anyway, and for two, we couldn't possibly hope to capture the collective consensus of a huge community spanning 80+ sites and several years in a couple of paragraphs. It's a place to get started, not a place to send people in a 90 character comment explaining why their question got closed.

pixel

@GnomeSlicE ty

LessPop_MoreFizz

@pixel Room owners and mods. Those of us whose names are in italics are owners.

GnomeSlicE

@OrigamiRobot I think it's come up more than three times, so not every time.

LessPop_MoreFizz

I can make other people owners and demote them, it's a pretty meaningless 'power'. I mainly abuse it to pin things when i feel like it.

OrigamiRobot

9 mins ago, by OrigamiRobot

The only thing I am trying to say is that reopening this question with the current FAQ just makes site policy even more confusing

I am against making policies more confusing. That is all I am saying.

pixel

00:26

@OrigamiRobot more importantly, reopening while opposing ITG in general is confusing.

GnomeSlicE

@pixel It's a different type of question.

pixel

@GnomeSlicE it's the same kind of question, it's different only that it provides better detail to identify the game

0

Q: What is the Font Used in Pokemon Conquest?

What's the font used in Pokemon Conquest's dialogue? More specifically, since I assume it's some proprietary font compiled compiled in the game, where have I seen it before? It looked extremely familiar as soon as I saw it. Here's an example: My first thought was Final Fantasy Tactics Advance...

pokemon-conquest

user2334

@OrigamiRobot When you start a job and, during orientation, they give you a one page welcome letter—do you expect that packet to contain every single thing you need to know for your job? That's what we've been trying to do with the FAQ. It's insanity.

pixel

should not be closed based on the current conversation

GnomeSlicE

@pixel It provides a completely different genre of detail.

pixel

00:28

@GnomeSlicE to make myself clear, I'm not opposing, I'm questioning the hypocrisy

GnomeSlicE

It's not based on memory, and it's not something only the asker can confirm the answer to.

@pixel I'm answering. =]

pixel

The font question details each of those traits

GnomeSlicE

@pixel Yes. And I supported it too.

OrigamiRobot

@MarkTrapp No, but if that packet explicitly says not to do something and I'm not gonna do it.

pixel

and didn't require somebody from here to edit in a picture

so in fact was of a higher quality than today's example

GnomeSlicE

00:29

@pixel I dunno about that, but I support both of them.

pixel

@GnomeSlicE today's example needed longer to google the answer for

GnomeSlicE

@pixel I'm not sure what that's relevant to.

pixel

other question had more detail in it, thus was easier to find the answer

GnomeSlicE

I think we've lost the original argument here.

user2334

@OrigamiRobot And when your co-worker or manager says, "oh, that's just for X situation. You can do it in Y situation." Would you then say, "but the welcome packet said no! We can't do it until the welcome packet changes!"? Because that seems unreasonable to me.

OrigamiRobot

00:31

@MarkTrapp Why don't they just clarify those situation in the packet?

pixel

@MarkTrapp no, you'd say "oh, the documentation said X, why is it that we completely disregard it in situation Y?"

while pulling a frown and acting confused

There's no need to be so aggressive with your wording :P

user2334

@OrigamiRobot Why does it matter? The FAQ/welcome packet isn't the 10 commandments. I'm all for making things clearer when they can be made clearer, but the FAQ is not a normative set of rules for the site. It's descriptive.

LessPop_MoreFizz

@OrigamiRobot Because the point of the welcome packet is that you're never going to screw up too badly by doing what it says. Once you have a better understanding of what's going on, you'll be able to understand when it's okay to countermand it. But when you're new, it's better to play it safe and set up what jews like to call 'a fence around the law'.

Fluttershy

Either we stick to that, or we remove it.

We can't cherry pick.

pixel

give @Fluttershy a star

user2334

00:35

@Fluttershy Sure, hedge a little in the FAQ. Whatever. But what the FAQ says now doesn't hold up the day to day business of the site.

pixel

prohibit is such a strong word for a rule you can situationally ignore

Fluttershy

If we say "Oh, ITG questions of X type are fine! But ITG questions of Y type are bad!" all we're going to do is confuse users.

OrigamiRobot

@MarkTrapp Then it doesnt need to be in the FAQ

LessPop_MoreFizz

@Fluttershy That list also includes 'Piracy and support with pirated games', and yet, emulation persists, because we like to shove our heads in the sand because it's a subject area with lots of deniability.

Fluttershy

@MarkTrapp Then the FAQ needs to be updated as site policies change. Y'know... The way it was when ITG questions were finally banned.

@LessPop_MoreFizz I'm all for removing emulation questions, too. But last time I brought that up, I got flamed all to hell.

user2334

00:37

@Fluttershy The FAQ doesn't need to be updated as policies change because the FAQ isn't the normative document by which the site runs. It should be a basic description of what's on and off-topic. Veterans shouldn't be using it as a rubric by which to judge questions or point people to as justification for why a question was closed.

user2334

To that end, I think saying "the site policies prohibit questions of the following types" is so misleading as to be one of the "blatantly wrong" things I was saying the FAQ shouldn't have.

3

pixel

@MarkTrapp I agree

OrigamiRobot

@MarkTrapp Right, so change that.

user2334

@OrigamiRobot If someone wants to propose that change, I'm all for it. The lack of the change is not going to stop me from voting to reopen the Breaking Bad question, though.

Fluttershy

@OrigamiRobot But change it to what? "Feel free to ask ITG questions. We'll cherry pick them from now on as to which ones get closed and which ones stay open"?

pixel

00:39

@MarkTrapp I cast the winning vote on both the breaking bad and the pokemon font question. They're both open.

user2334

@Fluttershy No, something like "Please note, however, the following types of questions are generally off-topic:". Hedge!

OrigamiRobot

@MarkTrapp Your votes are your own. I am not going to vote to reopen a question that we are telling people up front isn't allowed.

pixel

@Fluttershy correctly utilise the tag wiki to outline information that is required in order for questions of this type to work... tag popup when you type it, doesn't require something in the FAQ

Lazers

0

Q: Player Two Press Burninate? Should we keep the [Multiplayer] tag?

I'm not convinced that multiplayer is a good or useful tag. It's primary use at the moment is as a meta-tag to allow for filtering of questions concerned specifically with a multiplayer-mode in a game where that differs wildly from the games single player mode, such as the 106 questions currently...

discussion tags burnination

user2334

00:55

Man, I looked up the "fence around the law" thing @LessPop_MoreFizz mentioned and that's exactly what the FAQ is.

user2334

> A gezeirah is a law instituted by the rabbis to prevent people from accidentally violating a Torah mitzvah. We commonly speak of a gezeirah as a "fence" around the Torah. For example, the Torah commands us not to work on Shabbat, but a gezeirah commands us not to even handle an implement that you would use to perform prohibited work (such as a pencil, money, a hammer), because someone holding the implement might forget that it was Shabbat and perform prohibited work.

LessPop_MoreFizz

@MarkTrapp Yeah, I used the term very deliberately.

LessPop_MoreFizz

01:09

It's essentially the concept that we prohibit things that are similar to the things that are actually illegal because this way it's harder to screw up by accident.

Lazers

0

Q: Best follower for Barbarian and best way to equip them

It seems to be the consensus for the average Barb in Inferno that the best follower is Enchantress for the Armour buff as most, like myself, are building their character for surviabilty (LOH, armour, high res, block%, vit). What I find is she does seem to die very quickly. What is the best way...

diablo-3 diablo-3-barbarian

OrigamiRobot

While I don't necessarily agree with that method, at least I can see its reasoning.

LessPop_MoreFizz

@OrigamiRobot Part of understanding the rules is understanding when it's a good idea to bend/break them.

OrigamiRobot

Onto the next thing, we voted on whether to prohibit ITG or conditionally allow them. Prohibition was what I voted for and what won. Not "Tell everyone they are prohibited, but secretly allow some conditionally." From what I could tell, most people who voted for prohibition accepted that there were some cases that ITGs were answerable and not guessing games, but the bad so far outweighed the good that the entire category needed to be banned.

If that is going to change to the "allow conditionally" option, that should be resolved on meta before it is acted on, IMO.

user2334

The issue is that these aren't ITG questions. And it's already on meta.

OrigamiRobot

01:23

@MarkTrapp Resolved being the key word.

Fluttershy

@MarkTrapp How is "What game is this guy playing in this show?" not an ITG question?

OrigamiRobot

Also, it IS asking for game identification.

user2334

@Fluttershy LessPop's question explains this

user2334

@OrigamiRobot +18/-5, +17/-5, +17/-8 all saying the same thing ("look at this thing, do you see this thing? Tell me what that thing is" is not the same as ITG and should be allowed) is pretty resolved to me, but whatever

Fluttershy

@MarkTrapp Which just goes right back to the original decision on ITG questions. It was acknowledged that there were a few shining examples of how to properly ask such questions, but was decided (by the community) that the entire category couldn't be saved by a handful of good questions.

LessPop_MoreFizz

01:26

@Fluttershy I am pretty sure prior to this specific question we have not had a single instance of an ITG that actually included an explicit reference to an identifiable piece of source material that could be identified. Sadly, searching deleted questions is hard-to-impossible.

Fluttershy

@LessPop_MoreFizz I answered an ITG question prior to the ruling that actually had a gif from the game in question. It was closed and deleted.

LessPop_MoreFizz

Regardless, I think that allowing policy to gain nuance over time is on the whole a good thing, and if it helps to break up some of the rigidity for which we are becoming renowned, that's a good thing too, because we need to start focusing on why a question is bad in real and concrete terms, rather than which magical-box-of-banned it happens to fit in to.

2

OrigamiRobot

@MarkTrapp Is the breaking bad question asking for game identification? If so, that is what was voted on here. LessPop's meta post is about far more than just that one question and the vast majority of votes came in before this question even existed.

@LessPop_MoreFizz I absolutely agree.

user2334

@OrigamiRobot I honestly don't know what to say if you're not willing to accept that things are not that black and white, other than to say I simply disagree with that type of overly rigid interpretation of policy.

LessPop_MoreFizz

Also, I really like the phrase magical-box-of-banned and the various other similar constructions I've been using lately it seems.

OrigamiRobot

01:31

@MarkTrapp I am saying that vote was that black and white. I am not opposed to it changing, but it needs to happen in the same manner as the original vote.

GnomeSlicE

@LessPop_MoreFizz Where do you come up with these?

Fluttershy

Derail GET!

LessPop_MoreFizz

@GnomeSlicE I make them up!

pixel

I need an alarm clock like that

LessPop_MoreFizz

I don't have to prove that I am creative.

user2334

01:33

@OrigamiRobot And I'm saying it wasn't, because that's not how SE works. Any policy discussion runs under the presumption that people will use common sense applications of consensus. Any time I see that not happening, believe me, I'll always be one of the first to rail against it.

pixel

@MarkTrapp ah, so the discussion I was asleep for after our last one softened up your opinion? :p

OrigamiRobot

in Gaming Town Hall Chat, Feb 8 at 0:08, by OrigamiRobot

@LessPop_MoreFizz I'm not sure a ban on anything is a good idea. There could always be outlying exceptions that willb e hard to defend if such a ban is in place. Some of these (piracy) obviously do not belong here, but they should be aggressively closed based on policy not a ban.

user2334

@pixel No, you've just consistently misinterpreted my position.

pixel

@MarkTrapp our discussion wouldn't have lasted that long if you were as open minded as you're demonstrating atm

GnomeSlicE

@LessPop_MoreFizz You're the coolest.

Fluttershy

01:36

When I see a status-completed in regards to the "Look at this thing" question type, I will stop casting close votes on them.

user2334

@OrigamiRobot So you agree! I don't know what we're arguing about then. I just don't think common-sense reading of the prohibition on ITG bans the "look at this thing, tell me what this thing is" type of question

LessPop_MoreFizz

@OrigamiRobot I'm not sure where you're going here.

pixel

Is the intention to allow ITG questions then now?

user2334

No, ITG is still banned. These questions aren't ITG.

OrigamiRobot

@MarkTrapp I don't know how else I can say "This is not an opinion on the question itself, but on the communication of policies regarding said question."

pixel

01:39

@MarkTrapp they are ITG, just not on the same level as the ones you dislike. Their sole purpose for existence are to identify a game

user2334

@OrigamiRobot Except it isn't, because the policies were about a different type of question. These aren't ITG because they show none of the same problems that got ITG banned. If it talks like a chicken, walks like a chicken, tastes like a chicken, it's not a duck.

pixel

@MarkTrapp our current disagreement is because you have a stigma attached to ITG and you're classifying these examples based on that, they are 'identify this game' questions as they're asking to identify a game (I have no stigma attached to them, I wasn't here at the time)

Fluttershy

@MarkTrapp The policies were about "Questions asking for game identification." 'Nuff said. If it explicitly states "What game is this" it should be closed until the community reaches an agreement on the current meta post in the same manner as the last one.

OrigamiRobot

@MarkTrapp Whatever your definition of ITG is is not what the FAQ says and is not what was described in the vote.

The FAQ part I'm done arguing, but that vote was to prohibit questions asking for game identification and that's what the breaking bad question is.

user2334

@Fluttershy Except it isn't "'nuff said" because that's again, not how SE works. We don't create blanket bans on things without defining what those things are. ITG refers to a specific class of questions which these questions do not fall into. ITG are questions where the people ask people to identify a game they remember but can't point to themselves.

GnomeSlicE

01:42

Dogfighter is officially awesome.

Mr Smooth

So I'm just chilling on reddit when I see this: reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/wrf7m/… @LessPop_MoreFizz since when does your site have anything other than that "nothing here go away" line?

OrigamiRobot

If you want to say not every question asking for game identification is an ITG, that is another story and was not part of that vote.

user2334

@OrigamiRobot The FAQ doesn't define what it means by "game identification", but even if it did, I've already rejected at least a dozen times in the past couple of hours the belief that the FAQ is law. It isn't. It's a basic guideline for new users.

Lazers

0

Q: Where to base healing/damage amounts come from?

In World of Warcraft, the damage or healing done by a spell varies with your level. For example, Greater Healing Wave for a level 84 Shaman does 8778-10028 healing: What i cannot figure out is where Wowhead is getting these numbers from. There's a javascript slider, that you can adjust and s...

world-of-warcraft

OrigamiRobot

@MarkTrapp I said I'm done arguing the FAQ part.

GnomeSlicE

01:45

@MrSmooth LOL

user2334

@OrigamiRobot That's exactly what I'm saying, and it wasn't part of that vote. LessPop's question defines that class of questions and the consensus, at least right now, is that they're allowed

user2334

If there's a reason why they suck and shouldn't be allowed apart from their passing resemblance to ITG, we should talk about that on that meta question.

OrigamiRobot

@MarkTrapp If you are going to honestly say that the votes cast before the breaking bad question came into the picture apply to this discussion, I really don't know how to respond.

LessPop_MoreFizz

@MrSmooth I've always used it as a dumping ground to host various files I need to keep on the internet since pre-dropbox days. For some reason, that particular image has been linked a whole lot since I posted it, and honestly accounts for ~50%+ of my monthly bandwidth usage these days.

user2334

@OrigamiRobot I'm saying the ITG discussion was about a specific set of questions that have a specific set of problems, and were banned specifically because those problems were unsurmountable. These questions don't share those same problems, so the vote and blanket ITG ban is largely irrelevant to the discussion of their merits except to say "these aren't ITG questions".

user2334

01:49

Applying a policy that governs one type of question to a new set of questions nobody thought of when they created the first policy is silly.

OrigamiRobot

@MarkTrapp And the definition of "ITG" needs to come from the community.

LessPop_MoreFizz

See also:

Raven Dreamer

is salt new in Gods and Kings?

Mr Smooth

@RavenDreamer yep

user2334

@OrigamiRobot It did. There's at least a dozen meta questions about it. I'm not sure what you're arguing against.

Raven Dreamer

01:51

I'd be tempted to buy Civ V Gods and Kings... if I could get it bundled with all the DLC civs.

Don't like being nickled and dlc'd

user2334

@RavenDreamer There was a Summer Sale Bundle the other day when Civ 5 was part of the daily deal

user2334

Oh, it's still available. $29.59

user2334

Even comes with all the Civ 4 content and Civ III

Alok

'ITG(=identify this game)' != game identification?

Raven Dreamer

@MarkTrapp But I already own Civ V.

OrigamiRobot

01:53

@MarkTrapp I am arguing that we voted to prohibit all questions asking for game identification. Regardless of their answerability. We need to stick to that vote, or change that vote. If having a video of the game makes a question not an ITG, that needs to be voted on by the community. You can't expect a question that most people voted on when it's only examples were font and music questions to count as consensus here.

LessPop_MoreFizz

npr.org/blogs/krulwich/2012/07/16/156851175/…

user2334

@RavenDreamer Gift that part of the bundle to someone? $29.59 is still a good deal for all the DLC and Gods + Kings

user2334

Oh wait, never mind. Gods and Kings isn't part of the bundle. CARRY ON.

Raven Dreamer

29.59 is what you save, anyway

The bundle is 39.99

user2334

That too

user2334

01:56

@OrigamiRobot I'm saying that interpretation is incorrect and overly rigid because it ignores why ITG was banned. But we're not getting anywhere with this, so there's no point in keeping arguing about it. You should probably add your position to LessPop's question, though.

user2334

why does OS X keep autocorrecting interpretation to "interoperation"? RAGE

GnomeSlicE

@MarkTrapp Oh, I thought you meant interoperation...

OrigamiRobot

@MarkTrapp It doesn't matter if that interpretation is incorrect, that is what people will act on. All I'm asking for is better communication here. I don't care how, I just want everyone to be on the same page. I realize that was the intention of LessPop's question, but it only recently got a concrete example of his intentions. Because of that, those votes don't really mean a lot. The top answer is your answer and it doesn't even address the Breaking Bad question, nor should it.

user2334

I provided three concrete examples of "look at this thing tell me what that thing is" questions in my answer, and I believe the Breaking Bad question is no different from those things after it was edited to include a concrete thing to point to (the screencap). I'm probably in the best position to know what I was arguing for in my answer, and I assure you, it was for questions like the Breaking Bad question post-revision.

user2334

I also think it's essential people assume good faith of others in the community and presume they can think for themselves when reading answers instead of assuming they didn't know what they were doing when they voted

OrigamiRobot

02:04

@MarkTrapp It doesnt matter if you know what you were arguing. It matter if the people voting did.

@MarkTrapp This is not what I am saying at all. I am saying people voted on fonts and music, not an honest to goodness game identification question.

user2334

They could've voted because they like my dashing good looks, too. I'm not sure what your point is. If you strongly disagree with the positions taken in the only up voted answers there, please for the love all that is holy offer a counterpoint by creating an answer there.

OrigamiRobot

I dont think a single answer is the...answer...here. I think whether or not the breaking bad question counts as an ITG deserves it's own post.

EBongo

@BenBrocka @Fluttershy @James If you'd asked me before the 11th, I'd tell you Rubies are impossible. Now it seems possible I'll hit the habitat cap with them. Weird.

Fluttershy

@EBongo I got my two and stopped. =P

UQAllulloo

My Firefox is different. D:

I don't like change. D:

OrigamiRobot

02:09

Your answer reads to me as "It's not the identification aspect that makes these questions close worthy, they have other problems too." I dont think that applies to the Breaking Bad question at all.

user2334

My answer establishes that "Look at this thing. Do You see this thing? Tell me what that thing is" is not categorically off-topic, that we have other questions on the site there are of the same type and have not been closed as off-topic (nor should they be), but that doesn't necessarily entail that all identification questions are now on-topic again

EBongo

@Fluttershy Well, like the selfish min/maxer I am, I'm just trying to get more gems. I suppose I'll send them to the dragon glue factory in future months as I work to get the perfect set of 12, but in the mean time... gems...

user2334

The Breaking Bad question, post revision, fits the format of "Look at this thing. Do you see this thing? Tell me what that thing is." It does not have the same problems as the questions that should be closed, like ITG. Thus, it should not be closed. Exactly what my answer says. If I added the breaking bad question to the list of examples I provided, would that be sufficient?

GnomeSlicE

@MarkTrapp this one, for example.

user2334

Sure, that's a question that shouldn't be closed as off-topic due to ITG

Fluttershy

02:13

►

I really wanna do this...

OrigamiRobot

Not at all.

James

@EBongo Haha

Nice man :)

Alok

@MarkTrapp ಠ_ಠ Its music, which is similarly to font not-a-game. I'll echo what @pixel said, who are you and what happened to the real MarkTrapp?

GnomeSlicE

10

Q: Who sings the Portal 2 song "Want You Gone" by Jonathan Coulton?

What is the name of the singer who sings the Portal 2 song "Want You Gone" by Jonathan Coulton? Thanks!

portal-2 music

OrigamiRobot

The question is, do videos make game identification questions acceptable? I do not think that has been sufficiently voted on. If videos make it ok, what about GIFs?

user2334

02:20

@Alok No, it's not the same as the font identification questions. I'm sorry that you think that. But my position didn't suddenly reverse: you guys just keep misinterpreting it. After 3 days of trying to explain, I'm pretty much over trying to help you understand it. Just don't use what I said as some justification for trying to get font identification questions reopened.

user2334

@OrigamiRobot The medium for concrete identification has no bearing on its acceptability. The Breaking Bad question just has a screen cap. The Portal 2 song just mentions the name of the song and the composer. The point is that they concretely identify the thing to identify instead of saying things like "I remember this thing it had X, Y, and Z: tell me what that thing is." They're pointing to a thing and saying, "What is this called?"

Alok

@MarkTrapp I'm not fishing for justification on fonts. I just fail to see why music is not a domain separate from games while fonts is separate from games

OrigamiRobot

@MarkTrapp So all the ITGs that had screencaps? What about them?

user2334

@OrigamiRobot I can't comment on ITG questions that had screencaps since they're deleted.

LessPop_MoreFizz

@OrigamiRobot Tristan has mentioned one, but I don't remember any. The only ITG that I remember with 'screenshots' had some poorly MSPainted sketches based on the guys memory, which is clearly not what I am talking about.

OrigamiRobot

02:24

Imagine one?

@LessPop_MoreFizz ugh I remember that one. No, there were a couple with legitimate screeenshots.

LessPop_MoreFizz

@OrigamiRobot If there were a good way to search through the deleted ITG's and find them, I would vote to undelete.

user2334

@OrigamiRobot If they're like the Breaking Bad question in that they provide an actual in-game screencap and say, "What is the name of the game?" I'm likely to support it staying open or getting undeleted. I can't say without actually seeing one, so don't interpret it to mean I'm now saying any ITG question that had an image should be undeleted

Fluttershy

@MarkTrapp I'd show you the one I answered, but it was deleted.

LessPop_MoreFizz

I'm just going to go ahead and blame @Fluttershy for this.

OrigamiRobot

@MarkTrapp And this is the attitude which was not made clear at the time of the vote.

Fluttershy

02:26

@LessPop_MoreFizz Wasn't me! I was about a week away from getting out of the Army when I started watching MLP.

user2334

@OrigamiRobot What vote? The original ITG vote or the voting on LessPop's question?

OrigamiRobot

If videos and in game screenshots make game identification ok, that is news to me and I'm sure many others.

user2334

Toasuhdliasuhdihqwuidhquiwhodwoqiuhqw THAT'S NOT WHAT I SAID

OrigamiRobot

@MarkTrapp The original, as evidenced by the fact that they are deleted.

user2334

I don't understand the fetish this site has with oversimplifying things but holy crap it's causing the vein in my forehead to throb

4

OrigamiRobot

02:29

@MarkTrapp That is exactly my point! Whatever is being said about the distinction between ITG and the breaking bad question is not being made clear.

user2334

It is clear, you're just setting up straw mans. I don't know how much clearer I can be when I say, "I can't say without actually seeing one, so don't interpret it to mean I'm now saying any ITG question that had an image should be undeleted".

OrigamiRobot

On one hand you say assume good faith, but we all know people are going to oversimplify.

@MarkTrapp ugh forget the deleted ones

GnomeSlicE

@OrigamiRobot It's not an exact science.

That's what rep is for.

EBongo

“Here is a thing. Look at the thing. Do you see the thing? I would like to know what this Thing is Called.” - IMHO that's a long alternative name for ITG. I actually think it is a plausible policy, but call it what it is. It's allowing ITG questions, provided that good asking policies are followed.

Perhaps that is obvious... I'm just sayin'

GnomeSlicE

A high rep user should be able to look at a post and say either "this is good" or "this is bad".

user2334

02:32

Show me an example of a question that you want to lump in with the Breaking Bad question and I'll let you know whether I agree and why I agree or why I don't. But I can't comment on hypothetical questions and make sweeping generalizations like "videos and screenshots make game identification okay".

OrigamiRobot

@MarkTrapp What makes the breaking bad question acceptable? It has a video/screenshot?

GnomeSlicE

@MarkTrapp This.

...Minus the whole... throbbing vein thing.

It just makes me curse.

OrigamiRobot

Whatever it is is not clearly understood and it needs to be.

user2334

@OrigamiRobot I'm not sure what I could possibly say differently than what I've been saying for the past few hours to explain why I think the Breaking Bad question is acceptable.

LessPop_MoreFizz

@EBongo The key difference, and the reason we killed ITG, is that we're talking about identifying actual things that can be referenced and not memories.

GnomeSlicE

02:36

@OrigamiRobot How do you expect us to do that? Everyone asks questions differently. There's a point where people in the community (high rep users) need to be able to look at something and say 'this is okay' or 'this is bad'.

That's the point of rep.

Alok

@OrigamiRobot It had neither, the screenshot was added ex-post-facto not by OP (related comment: chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/5422021#5422021)

GnomeSlicE

@Alok Irrelevant. That's what editing is for.

Anyway, I'm gonna head.

LessPop_MoreFizz

@Alok The screenshot is irrelevant. The question as originally asked referred to a widely available video and explicitly pointed to a specific timecode.

Alok

@GnomeSlicE How so? Robot asked about video/screenie and I mentioned it had neither, that's all

LessPop_MoreFizz

Similarly, I am perfectly okay with "What is the song in the end credits of Game X" without a link to an MP3 or youtube video of said credits. Anyone with game X is able to load up the game, play the end credits, and hear the song to better answer the question, which is a sufficient standard of 'thingness' to not simply be somebodies cobbled together memories.

Alok

02:40

@GnomeSlicE Ah, just saw your edit - well, the problem with that is ITG questions which are valid if only someone edits in a screencap. I'd prefer @LessPop_MoreFizz's approach that specific info like timecode in an accessible video is acceptable; but if we're talking of ss/vids then it did not meet the criteria imho

user2334

@LessPop_MoreFizz It has to be objectively ostensive, though. "I remember a trailer for X game that had Y song: what was the song?" is, in my estimation, off-topic. "Here is the trailer for X game: what is the name of the song?" is on-topic, as would be "The trailer released on June 14th for X game had a song: what was the name of the song?"

Alok

@LessPop_MoreFizz Yes, I agree with you there's no difference of opinion ... anything that promotes a more reasonable approach is good imho! Now to wait a few weeks till someone manages to brainwash @MarkTrapp to let game related fonts pass by too :P

@MarkTrapp Uggh good point; could be multiple trailors ... or a fanmade dub of an actual trailor ... etc. :(

John

Woot! Just got my 100th badge! :D

Also, I got my first ever domination in TF2 today! :D

EBongo

@LessPop_MoreFizz I get that, but the terminology you use for ITG, is historical to this site. I'd say the new subset you've defined, are just ITG - just good ITG, or answerable ITG. In that respect you could just say "allow answerable ITG questions", and provide the Meta as guidance on what makes an ITG answerable.

OrigamiRobot

WTF, apparently I picked up a set mojo and didnt even know?

Alok

02:48

@OrigamiRobot Nice - Zunimassa or the other one?

OrigamiRobot

@Alok shrug I haven't looked it up yet

Wait, Unid selling is dead anyway.

Zunimassa

LessPop_MoreFizz

@MarkTrapp Yes. Specificity is key, etc.

Alok

@OrigamiRobot The images are different so you could probably have just figured it out from the unid version (like how ppl could tell Natalya's ring from the others).

user2334

@Alok You won't have to "brainwash" me; comments like that push me closer to just hanging it all up. Wildly misinterpreting people's positions or reactions to discussions in order to keep a tally of who agrees with you or not is what's dragging the site down hard. Offer up a position, defend it, do whatever: but jumping in every few minutes when someone sounds like they agreed with an unrelated argument you keep bringing up is incredibly grating and perpetuates a culture of gridlock

OrigamiRobot

@Alok I know, I was saying there was no point to bothering.

Alok

02:52

But yeah, unid is dead forever ... ppl apparently hoarding crappy unids in case bliz fixes things and idiots start buying again lol

user2334

You're not the only one who does this, but it's happening more and more here and it's really tiring

OrigamiRobot

@Alok Blizzard should just force ID all items right before the fix goes live.

Alok

@MarkTrapp Ok, I'll stop - but for the record, I never thought you agreed with that position ... all my posts basically say that I can't see a difference between font or music w.r.t. games

@OrigamiRobot Haha that is a really good idea ... which means that Blizz is sure to never think of it :D

OrigamiRobot

Worth anything?

I've never dealt with caster items.

Raven Dreamer

Uh..

Hell yeah. It's got loads of +Int and flat damage

Alok

02:55

Idk, but 83 int is the high end of the lower range :(

Raven Dreamer

And poison darts is one of the better primary spells

Alok

@RavenDreamer ^ This

Raven Dreamer

@Alok More desirable than strength

Alok

@RavenDreamer All of that set mojo have int on them ... us.battle.net/d3/en/item/zunimassas-ferocity

Raven Dreamer

Oh. All things considered, then

It's a crap version of the item, but it's still probably pretty valuable

OrigamiRobot

02:58

@RavenDreamer To jsp!

Alok

I'd say Poison Darts is the best spell by far that you could get a bonus on (among those listed), it has highest roll for dmg to elites, and +MaxMana which is also very important

Raven Dreamer

@OrigamiRobot jsp?

Alok

@OrigamiRobot wait ur a member? Help out @fbueckert then, he was looking to price some ammy

OrigamiRobot

@RavenDreamer d2jsp

Alok

I got Natalya's gaze sometime back - absolute lowest roll of dex lol, 78 dex >_<

OrigamiRobot

02:59

@Alok What? He can make his own account!

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