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14:00
he means relative to the rest of the game
that's exactly what i meant.
Its tangential to the larger discussion
the whole point is, with or without DT, the game is still Hard
I think it is Harder without
glider is "technically" not a cheat, it is an unfair advatage compared to other players
14:02
@alexanderpas going down that road is a semantic argument
we end up discussing what does cheating mean
then we'd have to define a cheat first
exactly
and an unfair advantage compared to other players is usually considered a cheat
but it is no technical cheat, and there are no other players in DF
then we have to think if cheating is even possible in DF
Of course its possible, direct memory editing
14:04
that might or might not be cheating
What's more if you create a really awesome fortress and you present it to the world, you are saying this is what I did with my hard work
stonesense uses direct memory access, is that cheating?
I consider removing all aquifers cheating.
if you didn't work hard for it, then you ar lying
so hang on, you're saying that with DT the game is no longer hard?
14:05
:83027 @ArdaXi only if you were playing by using it
@ArdaXi less hard
I'd still have worked hard for it
but not AS hard
the man who takes a bus for 2 miles out of a 26 mile race still worked hard, he ran 24 miles
... or harder, due to fun.
but not AS hard
only an infinitesimally small degree less hard
14:06
ignoring that it is not infinitesimal (or you wouldn't use DT in the first place), it is still LESS hard
this is more like hitching a ride for about a picometer out of the race
and that is the essence of cheating
@tzenes relative to the rest of the game it is
you still hitched a ride, you still cheated
but not to you as a humanbeing
and that's the key thing
it's like starting in front of the group, or at the rear of the group in a marathon.
14:07
exactly
@alexanderpas I wouldn't say that, but you do know that the people in the front of the group gain their position based on other races
what about the first race?
you can falsify information about other races to gain a better position
this would also be cheating
@ArdaXi you show best times, but usually it means you're at the back
I mean if everyone in the race is a first-timer
Would some one review my edit
14:09
I don't think that ever happens
5
A: Idle worker button in Starcraft?

Viper_SbIn Starcraft you can do it via a mod, but not by default (hack/mod) In Starcraft 2 the default is F1, or the icon on the bottom left of your screen.

the first marathon ever.
@CRoss I like it
The first marathon runner ran solo
and died at the end
we're talking hypothetically here anyway, it's an analogy
Then we'd use times from other runs
14:10
but there are no other runs
again
hypothetically
then you definately won't be able to run a marathon
you're creating an impossible situation
it's a hypothetical situation, are you really that thick?
it is a bad analogy
YOU MADE IT
No, I made the analogy where we all had walked 2 feet before this
14:11
wrong, you're forgetting the amatures that have trained, but have not run official runs.
you broke it
@alexanderpas you still have to submit times for various distances
no, you keep making up irrelevant exceptions to invalidate my point
usually 12-16 miles
@ArdaXi they are not irrelavent, as position is decided on by past data
if you say there is no past data, then you're talking about a different thing
it's irrelevant how a marathon's position is decided in an analogy
what was miles to km again?
14:12
1.6
its good this way @CRoss
@ArdaXi I wasn't the person who said it was like starting position, I only pointed out that it was decided on by other information
but that's irrelevant
and that you can cheat at it
I think that you can cheat at it does make it relavent
it's like a random starting position that is randomly decided by a random process
14:13
that's not true
that seems quite @random @ArdaXi
this is a really special marathon, they decided to make the positions completely random, just for this race
if we didn't have prior data, we'd get prior data to starting the race
@ArdaXi but no marathon does that
like the first race in mario kart local multiplayer
it's a HYPOTHETICAL situation
how hard is that to understand
hy-po-the-ti-cal
it doesn't have to exist
14:14
@ArdaXi if you want to make up new rules for a marathon I suppose they can be anything
in my hypothetical marathon you only have to run 2 inches
@ArdaXi forget it.
Its just breaking the analogy
but how large are you then @tzenes?
but ivo its HYPOTHETICAL
you're only changing the analogy so that it proves your point
14:15
@Arda a marathon is a real thing
it's a nice tactic, but a bit fallacious
It has a formal set of rules
in my version you're very friggin' small @tzenes
alexander has given a neat example
"like the first race in mario kart local multiplayer"
I can point to other instances of formal sets of rules, where cheating is well defined
14:15
BTW: why were there no small people marathon winners.
if you change the sets of rules, then you have broken the analogy
@tzenes, it's like starting in the front or the back in the first race in mario kart local multiplayer
I would argue that second player has an advantage in Mario Kart local multiplayer
an unfair advantage
how you handle that situation is your own decision as there aren't formal mario kart competition that I know of
or the first player, due to the mario kart effect.
why is it an unfair advantage, there is plenty in the course that can change the outcome
14:17
though if there are, they may have a set of rules to deal with this
DF isn't a game played in competitions
so that's irrelevant
but did the player that has the "unfair advantage" cheat? and how big is the advantage?
no, but competitions have good definitions of what is cheating
in mario kart, who starts first or second has an advantage that's close to nothing
and we were dealing with a semantic argument
14:18
it hardly influences the race at all
@ArdaXi my experience is otherwise
DT is the same thing, it hardly affects the amount of work you have to do at all
if you're in 7th you can either boost or not boost
there is a small difference, but it is hardly noticeable in the end result
:83169 if its so small then why do you use it?
14:19
you'll still have done a lot of work in the process
I'm not saying there isn't still a lot of work
because it's, as I said, tedious, which, as I said, has no equivalence to difficulty
I am saying there is less
tedium has no impact on difficulty
14:20
none whatsoever
:83176 tedium takes time
time impacts the result
time has no impact on difficulty either
unless you think pausing is cheating
reducing the time is cheating
so pausing or not pausing is cheating?
that's not reducing, that's lengthening
14:21
:83062 Hacks are against the TOS? Do we allow this?
if you're willing to take that time, because you have no line, is that considered cheating because you have no life.
@alexanderpas is it cheating to have someone else powerlevel your character in wow?
so then overclocking is cheating
since, as you said already, overclocking will reduce the time taken
actually you don't have to overclock
just get a faster processor
you know what I mean, stop nitpicking
14:22
but that relationship is well defined
much like building a straight line or a crooked
if you could powerlevel in singleplayer games, you are not cheating, unless you change the rules of the game.
it is defined as part of the game
@alexanderpas you are changing the rules of the game with DT
in the same manner as using a glider program for a single player game would be
there is no real difference between overclocking and DT at this point then
there is an important difference
people, people, we're starting to look like the Math's community!
14:24
since the only thing that is cheating about either is that they reduce the time you take to play the game
which is?
DT automates things that you would otherwise have to do
speeding up your processor doesn't change anything that you as a human would have to do
no it doesn't
you still have to make the decisions and click the buttons yourself
yes, you don't have to select your dwarf and go to his professiosn tab
it's all manual still, you just use a different interface to do it
that is automated for you
14:25
@tzenes, no, it does not automate a thing, as you still have to make the decisions.
it's not automated, or it'd be a macro
it certainly has a different interface, and that interface is still manual, but its automated
it does not read the status and acts on that.
automation does not imply a disolution of agency
it's manual, but automated?
that's like saying something's black, but white
14:26
no, your interface to DT is manual
I might point out Zebra are both black and white
they're not both at the same time
???
that's impossible
Its not like they change based on the heat orsomething
how can one particle both reflect and absorb all light?
14:27
a zebra is not black, a zebra is not white.
They are most certianly black and white (at the same time) they do this through having stripes
:83246 something cannot be both at the same time, that's a physical law
and usually things that are place reflect less light
@Arda you mean like schroedingers cat?
I guess I don't really understand what you mean
:83250 that's a theory, it hasn't been proven
@Arda quantum interference has been proven
14:28
according to many worlds theory it's still only one at the time, only in different worlds
Two states at the same time isn't just a theory anymore.
the many worlds theory, by comparison, has been disproven
it's not the same object in the same place, it's in different worlds
no it hasn't
back in the 80s
it was part of the birth of M theory
as an augmentation to superstring theory
of course that is irellavent as I can prove light particals can be in two places at once
any way, @tzenes, I'm done arguing with you, all you can do is poke holes in my arguments
14:30
I can create an interference pattern with a photon gun
you have never, at any time that I have argued with you ever given an argument of your own
Is a zebra black? No! (ever seen a white zebra?) Is a zebra white? No! (ever seen a white zebra?) Is a zebra striped? Yes! Does a zebra has white stripes? Yes! (that does not make him white!) Does a zebra has black stripes? Yes! (that does not make him black!)
I have
I believe that automating part of your game is cheating
that means that you are controlling every dwarf yourself then?
@alexanderpas I'm going to ignore the presence of albino zebras, and instead point out that a zebra with stripes has some black and some white, thus possesing both qualities
14:31
Automation is the use of control systems and information technologies to reduce the need for human work in the production of goods and services. In the scope of industrialization, automation is a step beyond mechanization. Whereas mechanization provided human operators with machinery to assist them with the muscular requirements of work, automation greatly decreases the need for human sensory and mental requirements as well. Automation plays an increasingly important role in the world economy and in daily experience. Automation has had a notable impact in a wide range of highly visible...
and you're also making all the water flow by yourself
must be boring
Automation is the use of control systems and information technologies reducing the need for human intervention.
yeah, like using a computer
that was a timely link
you're not using a computer to chat here are you?
that's cheating
14:32
@Arda that's a specious point
it's your point
no, it is not my point
you're saying: "automation is cheating"
I said automating part of your game
by extension, that means using a computer is cheating
well, the entire game is automated
14:33
please don't misquote me
that means playing is cheating
He's saying that you're automating more than the game designer intended.
A game is a system, a set of rules
actually what he delivered, not what he intended
DT does not violate the rules.
:83292 that's not what he's saying, that's how you interpret it
14:33
it does violate the access control scheme
:83294 noted
@Arda it is what I said, you've misquoted me
you're just making up arbitrary rules now, @tzenes
What is the definition of automation?
let's start at first principals
saying I am cheater is a factual statement, not an opinion
therefore you can't defend it using opinion
There is no opinion here
yet all the rules you've given to define cheating in the game, are your opinion
yes, there is
"Automation is the use of control systems and information technologies reducing the need for human intervention."
it is nothing but opinion
what is the control system for dwarf fortress?
14:35
@tzenes by that definition, a computer, a game, a subroutine in the game are all cheating
"Automation is the use of control systems and information technologies reducing the need for human intervention."
yes, less human involvement
what does automation have to do with the definition of cheating anyway
the control system for dwarf fortress is well defined
DT changes the output format of the human intervention.
14:36
it reduces the amount of human intervention
@tzenes, what does automation have to do with cheating
By that definition wouldn't an alternative tile set be cheating?
does that reduce the amount of human intervention?
@tzenes what is your definition of cheating anyway
it reduces the time you need to think about what something is.
14:37
it doesn't change the user input, but it changes the UI, not the user's input to the system, but the output to the users.
It's different than what the game creator delivered
so by the definition of automation it is not cheating
it could be cheating by some other definition
so your definition of cheating is automation?
but I'm not sure how relevant that really is to the larger discussion
that makes sprite hacks in online games not cheating?
@tzenes could you clarify your definition of cheating?
14:38
so then doubling the speed of my dwarves isn't cheating
@alexanderpas I'm not trying to define what cheating is yet
@tzenes you'll have to
I'm trying to get to automation first, and from there make a larger point
otherwise you can't apply the term
@tzenes you can't use a term without defining it
Cheating is an act of lying, deception, fraud, trickery, imposture, or imposition. Cheating characteristically is employed to create an unfair advantage, usually in one's own interest, and often at the expense of others, Cheating implies the breaking of s. The term "cheating" is less applicable to the breaking of laws, as illegal activities are referred to by specific legal terminology such as fraud or corruption. Cheating is a primordial economic act: getting more for less, often used when referring to marital infidelity. A person who is guilty of cheating is generally referred to as...
14:39
like I said, this is an argument from first principles
there is an article on cheating in games too
what is cheating to you
is that such a hard question?
Cheating in video games involves a video game player using non-standard methods for creating an advantage beyond normal gameplay, usually to make the game easier, or may also create unusual effects which do not necessarily make the game easier to play, such as giving characters different appearances, such as large heads. Cheats sometimes may take the form of "secrets" placed by game developers themselves. Cheats may be activated from within the game itself (a cheat code implemented by the original game developers); or created by third-party software (a game trainer) or hardware (a che...
since you've ignored it 6 times now
14:40
:83348 Heh, there's a bug in the importer "[[rule]]s" -> "s"
:83355 that's a very subjective definition, what is an advantage beyond normal gameplay?
I can't do anything with DT I couldn't do through normal gameplay
"and often at the expense of others"
often is not requisit
sure
Which kind of makes it an opinion question, doesn't it?
so, clearly we don't have a hard definition anywhere in here
14:41
"or may also create unusual effects which do not necessarily make the game easier to play" tilesets are cheating then
But there are important thematic parts to the definition
"lying, deception, fraud, trickery, imposture, or imposition"
the point is, the actual definition of what is cheating and what isn't is largely an opinion
This idea that you are misrepresenting yourself, or you accomplishments
any lying is essentially cheating
but I'm never going to post on the forums at all about my fortresses, am I no longer a cheater?
In general usage, difficulty level refers to the relative difficulty of completing a task or objective. In computer and video games, the term specifically delineates the ease or difficulty with which an average user may complete a game or a part of a game. Arcade games as well as many early console games included the difficulty level as an explicit setting. For example, games such as Tempest would prompt their users to choose "easy", "medium", "hard", or similar options before beginning play. Some games, however, maintain the former practice to a degree—often harder versions of the game...
14:43
so we may not be able to find out from wikipedia what cheating is, but we can come up with a basis for comparison
answer the question please
we can say any attempt to misrepresent yourself is cheating
but I'm not trying to misrepresent myself
Not all lying is cheating. In order for lying to be cheating, there has to be a game, or a comparison
Gnoupi
as long as you bend the rules established in a game, even for your own personal pleasure, in an objective to make it easier, it qualifies probably as cheating. After, as long as it's only personal.... who cares?
14:44
we just play DF on another difficulty level, just like those who disable aquifers.
if I, in this room out loud stated "one plus one is three" am I cheating somehow?
@McKay I didn't think it was necesary to add that qualifier, but yes, it has to be at a game or comparison
:83385 I'm not misrepresenting myself (I'm not even presenting myself) so then I'm no longer a cheater
so we have a basic idea that misrepresentation is cheating
:83391 If you didn't think it was necessary, why are you talking about the misrepresentation of ones self. That sounds like it's coming outside of the game?
14:45
As a result things like: having someone else play for you, is cheating
:83393 No, you do. I disagree, but we're working with your definition, not mine
well, I'm constructing a definition @McKay I have to build it in peices
I can't do everything at once, I am rate limited afterall
So, you've got to be careful.
I am certainly trying to
Having someone else participate for you isn't cheating in a game, it's cheating in a competition. Presumably that person could follow all the rules of the game.
We're talking about game cheating?
14:47
But then you're not playing the game, so it cannot be considered your play
:83404 We can't be, @tzenes is talking about cheating if I present my fortress, which implies I'm cheating at some kind of competition
other people can play other games, but if someone else plays your game, then either its no longer yours, or it is cheating
double a = 1.4
double b = 1.4
double c
int d, e, f
c = a + b
d = (int) a
e = (int) b
f = (int) c
echo d . "+" . e . "=" . f
so, if my wife and I are both playing a game, but taking turns, it's cheating?
@alexanderpas I think that cast makes f into 2, but it depends on the language
14:49
or it's no ones game?
:83417 or its both of your game
nportelli
No it's not cheating, it's playing a game. Would only be cheating if it were a competition and you misrepresented yourself
but neither of you individually
nportelli
How can there be cheating with no competition?
:83424 that's what I'd like to know
14:49
@nportelli as I mentioned earlier a competition does not seem requisit
Gnoupi
:83424 I'm sure plenty of ex-husbands have the answer to that one
its not implicit in the definition
:83427 that's a homonym ;-)
nportelli
Ya it does. If you are competing with yourself then fine, but still required
cheating in DF would be removing the water without pumps after you've flooded your fortress.
14:50
the definition only stipulted misrpresenting yourself
@tzenes I think you are confusing game cheating with competition cheating. You're going to have to be more clear which you're referring to.
:83432 still wouldn't be if there's no competition to cheat in
certainly that is detrimental to a competition
:83433 As @nportelli said, how can there be cheating without competition?
@McKay I don't think they're the same, but the existance of one can imply the existance of the other, which makes it tricky
14:51
why not ask on the DF forums: "is using DT cheating?"
nportelli
"Cheats" in games as per the wiki definition are not necessarily cheating, just a term to say "extra stuff"
do you care if its cheating or if I think its cheating? because this discussion started with the latter
I think that when someone is playing DF in their basement outside of a competition, we can remove the competition and we're only discussing game cheating. Like you yourself said.
@tzenes I think that the definition of cheating is mostly opinion
@McKay fine, let's ignore the competition for the moment. Which is to say, assume no competition
14:52
unless explicit rules have been layed out for a specific competition/game
which there haven't for DF to my knowledge
nportelli
@tzenes I think this discussion started because someone took offense to you claiming them being a cheater.
:83446 then we can assume no cheating
@nportelli well then it is my opinion of what is cheating that matters
that was my point 10 pages ago
but you kept ignoring me
seems like a stalemate to me this discussion, everyone has their own opinion which they're entitled to, and let's play more DF instead of arguing about the meta-game.
14:54
now, I don't think cheating is a matter of opinion
but again that is also an opinion
nportelli
@tzenes No what matters is you seem to be a DF snob and wish everyone to know it.
I have fairly well defined rules for what is cheating
as I said, unless there are specific rules as to what constitutes cheating for a game it can only be opinion
@nportelli I don't care if people know it
or non-existent, if you prefer
14:54
I was asked why I thought so
I did not offer this up of my own volition
you did, you called me a cheater
nportelli
@tzenes that's fine, but you obviously have issue with how other people play. That's all I've seen this discussion go over in the last hour.
@nportelli I do have an issue. Arda asked how anyone got by with DT, and I said I thought it was cheating so most people should get by without it
nportelli
Not what the definition of cheating
I don't have an issue with the definition of cheating I think its well defined
14:56
:83480 no, I wondered what gaming without DT was like, and you insulted me for asking
nportelli
What @arda Xi said.
whether or not he considers it an insult is a matter of personal preference
I said I didn't use it and that further more I consider it cheating
now we know everyones opinion on the reat let's get back to actually playing DF (@tzenes, in all this time you could've reassigned the jobs of your dwarfs, @ArdaXi, you could've played a season or something like that in all the time arguing.)
I never accused him of being a cheater
I consider being called a cheater an insult, yes, seems reasonable
14:58
guys, just agree to disagree
@alexanderpas I have been
:83491 I've played about a year, in fact
that is calling me a cheater, implicitly
you consider its use cheating, I expressed that I use it, hence I am a cheater

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