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12:00
@Wipqozn I TRIED! I WAS HELPFUL, AND YOU SQUANDERED IT!
@Frank I'M SORRY I LET YOU DOWN
@Wipqozn GOOD! YOU SHOULD BE!
Also, why are we shouting?
To be perfectly honest there seems to be an attitude held by some users that it's up to them to police what they view as bad behaviour, but it's not. If user is acting up, it's something for the mods to deal with, not a regular user. That's one of the reasons mods exist, to deal with users acting up or special cases.
SHOUTING??? Don't you know what can be accomplished by SHOUTING!! SHOUT SHOUT AND SHOUT AGAIN! BAAAAH.
because I think, as we've all seen, when regular users try to police folks behaviour it just leads to drama.
12:02
@Wipqozn I have this view.
user15026
@fredley puts a pillow over head to drown the shouting
@Wipqozn If you make a site revolving around community moderation, I think it's reasonable when users actually try to do so.
I don't think it's a good idea to just go, "Well, not my problem, let mods deal with it."
It's not, "Community moderation, except for X, Y, and Z."
@Frank moderation of content is something users can do. Moderation of users is best left well alone unless you have a diamond
user15026
Except it is community moderation of content not of people
12:04
@Frank Typically, the encouraged workflow is "I, a regular user, have an issue, or think that someone else is acting up. I should post this on meta, or in serious cases ping a mod directly. That way, the community can discuss appropriate action."
@Frank It's our job as the community to alert mods to situations like that.
user15026
(or if the behavior is immediately egregious a mod can hammer things)
@ArtOfCode Yup. We have access to a fair bit of stuff that can help us distinguish between a bad incident and a bad user that regulars do not have too.
user15026
Notice the mod privs given to users are pretty much all arranged around vetting content? There's a reason for that. :)
@ArtOfCode The Theory of Moderation makes no mention of that.
Moderators are exception handlers.
12:06
@Frank ToM is not mod law :)
and although users may be able to deal with a specific case (like flagging a comment of saying saying "fuck off"), we can't deal with a pattern of bad behaviour. We can't suspend people, after all.
@Frank In theory, theory matches reality. In reality, this is not the case.
user15026
@Frank troublesome users being an exception rather than a rule, no?
So I think it's perfectly reasonable for users to actually try to invest in the site and try to help.
it's a theory that mods work by
12:07
Man, I've been having really weird dreams lately... I was playing on my 3DS, but something seemed off. All of a sudden, I realized the entire top half was missing :|
user15026
@Frank to a point, yes but as we can see that's not always practical if it continually devolves into drama and yelling. Which this hasn't, precisely, but it is certainly heading there.
@twobugs DS = Dual Screens. @dualbugs. @twoscreens.
@Frank Perhaps, but within limits. There are ways of 'helping' that end up causing more work for us volunteer mods, and more work for the CM team too.
Given what tools they have available. But I am purely against just pushing things onto mods.
@Wipqozn 3 Dual Screens? What now?
12:07
@Frank Why? That's what we're here for.
@ArtOfCode #3means 3d
user15026
@Frank yes but also please don't try to be like the user equivalent of the lone Ranger
who gets to be tonto?
@Frank sure, that's reasonable if the community can handle it. Users can't handle other users; it descends into flame wars.
@fredley I feel it's contravening the whole self moderation aspect.
user15026
12:08
The whole point of mods is that we want you to bring stuff to our attention so it can be handled when the community isn't or can't or whatever v
Huh, Alexa (Amazon's cloud thingy) is going to be fully featured on Pebble Core...
@Frank There are different types of moderation, and it's all a pyramid anyway.
user15026
@Frank self moderation in terms of users and site content is only intended to go so far else Wed not have diamonds
That's actually enough to make me interested in it now
The point isn't that mods can't handle things. The point is that SE specifically encourage self-moderation.
12:10
BACK TO WORK
@Frank Policing user behaviour is definitely out of scope for anyone without a diamond. Apart from anything, you don't have the tools available to make constructive attempts to rectify the situation.
@fredley Tell me where it says that.
Oh I guess someone was mad I said it's ridiculous to pretend to not understand something and then immediately self-answer
@Frank it doesn't need to say it
but aren't people trying to moderate content?
12:10
@Frank It's totally obvious, it does not need saying.
e.g. the questions they see that they think don't belong?
@KutuluMike Yes, which is why tools are provided for doing so.
The messaging, all of it I can find, encourages moderations by the community.
Do we really need like a CM to come in here and say it before you believe?
So don't tell me it's obvious, and users moderate, except when they don't.
12:11
when someone contributes what you consider to be consistantly bad content, when does that stop being a community problem?
If it's a user who's been around for a while, who you know, who you think will have a constructive discussion with you, go for it. I'd love to see more of that happening. The reality is that there are very few users who respond well to discussions with a peer, rather than someone who has more power than them.
Yes, regular users don't have tools to control users. We shouldn't.
Regular users have literally none of the tools to facilitate policing user conduct except on the most basic level
@Frank You're confusing moderation policy and moderation decision making with actual moderation. The community is encouraged to decide how they want to deal with things (by discussing on meta), but the actual moderation should be left to moderators, please. If it is not, as I said above, it just creates more work.
Which, comments, technically
12:13
I guess the way I would look at it is users are peers of each other. You're encouraged to use positive conflict resolution, but you intentionally don't have significant power over each other
Yes
Very yes
@fredley Yes, but that's sort of the point.
We're encouraged to do it ourselves.
The sites are specifically built that way.
Users moderate content. That's what the system is built for.
@ArtOfCode And again, the sites make no distinction on that.
@Frank They do, by only providing you the tools to perform that job.
12:14
Users cannot, effectively, moderate other users. It descends to flames far too often to make that work. That's why moderators exist.
3
Okay, let's attack this from another angle: a user is acting in a bannable or destructible manner. What can you do about this?
Literally nothing except modflag
@Unionhawk (protip: tell mods and walk away)
Don't even comment, it's a waste of your time.
I understand where you guys are coming from. But I also understand why users would try to do it themselves.
I understand why users want to do it. I also know that it doesn't work.
@ArtOfCode I dunno if I agree with that as a rule. We (the community) moderate other users behavior all the time on other sites; it depends on the user being willing to take criticism.
12:16
@Frank Maybe, inexperienced users who don't know how the site works. As I said, this invariably causes more problems. Experienced users should hopefully recognise this.
of course, in this case I think the user in question is too experience for it to work.
@KutuluMike yeah, that's the point. If they can take criticism, it works. If they can't, and in the majority of cases network-wide they can't, then it fails miserably and leaves a bigger mess for mods to clean up.
but how are you going to know if they can take the criticism until you give it?
@fredley You're missing my point. The distinction isn't that regular users aren't supposed to moderate users. It's that the site specifically encourages trying to help where they can.
@Frank Helping users, not helping 'the site'.
12:17
it sounds like what you're really saying isn't "the community should not try to moderate users" but rather "the community needs to figure out really fast when to quit trying"
It's all well and good to go, "Well, regular users aren't supposed to moderate users, so just flag and move on". But where is this explained?
@fredley Again, where does it say that?
trying to explain to another user why the thing they are doing it bad is exactly the point of community moderation. Arguing about it when they don't take the hint is the problem.
Just saying it's obvious is a cop-out.
@Frank Implicitly, in that regular users literally are not given the tools to do anything else
@Unionhawk So users shouldn't try to use what tools they do have?
12:19
@Frank But, it totally is. To literally everybody else. And it shouldn't even matter, you've been told this numerous times now.
its not obvious to me... what you are saying in this chat room sounds polar opposite to what moderators have been saying everywhere else.
@fredley It is not.
"Leave us out of it until it becomes absolutely necessary to get us involved"
This is not explained to anybody.
as opposed to "don't bother trying to do anything, that's not your job"
12:20
@Frank Where would you like to have it explained?
I'd recommend writing a meta about exactly what's unclear.
@fredley The Theory of Moderation, for one.
Because the entire premise is about empowering users.
@Frank A blog post by Jeff from 7 years ago?
I apologize if some of this drama arose because I left a comment on Retrosaur's question
@fredley That the entire premise of SE is built on?
I didn't think that would be a big deal
12:21
@Frank Might be, but SE has changed a lot over 7 years, and has learned a lot about this stuff
@fredley And that warrants an update, no?
@twobugs He's a troll, he toes the line to create arguments like this. I'm sure he's watching and laughing.
Theory of Moderation is not word of law. It's a useful resource for mods; it's almost irrelevant for regular users, and it shouldn't ever be used as a standing point for questioning current mod policy.
2
@Frank Blog posts aren't documentation.
1
What is in our food exactly and how it effects our health?

Proposed Q&A site for people who know and want to know about ingredients in our food used by the food industry.

Currently in definition.

12:22
@NewlyOpenedProposalsforEntertainment place your bets on time-to-shutdown
user15026
@ArtOfCode it also hasn't been revisited in...forever
@Frank I have to go, but as I said, if you feel strongly about this (and I think you have a valid point that some level of documentation about how moderation works would be useful), then please write a meta
@Frank that hasn't been updated in a similar length of time
When the central moderation aspect links to it, you can bet people will take it as authoritive.
@ArtOfCode And? You can't just go, "It hasn't been updated, you shouldn't follow that"
12:23
Please notice where it does not say anything about user conduct being a normal task
2
user15026
Here's the thing - yes, users have tools given to them as they are trusted. Yes, we totally expect you to talk to each other about things (as long as it doesn't get too explody). That's what comments and chat and meta are for. But at the end of the day, if someone is throwing sand at you in the sandbox it is totally okay and expected you will ask for help because no one likes sand in their eyes.
42 secs ago, by Frank
When the central moderation aspect links to it, you can bet people will take it as authoritive.
@fredley I know, I just think it's crazy
user15026
Like you can talk to someone all they want about their behavior but if they are throwing sand in your eyes they aren't gonna listen
12:25
As a normal user, you can deal with user behaviour you don't agree with by flagging. Which is what happened, and the flag was acted upon by a moderator. Sooooo...
I removed my downvote on his question because it's actually a fine question, but I do think it's goofy to do a POV question
@StefanoPalazzo Are...we not being nice?
user15026
@Frank that box does not say anything about users...
2 mins ago, by Frank
When the central moderation aspect links to it, you can bet people will take it as authoritive.
I can understand the wording issue. It feels weird if the question is worded as if the user was genuinely clueless, just before answering the question comprehensively. But that's really not that big of a deal is it :)
12:27
Who knows, maybe they were completely clueless and figured it out a few seconds after posting the question
user15026
@Frank ah okay you are talking about the link there
@Frank that's not what I'm trying to say :-)
comes in with little to no context
Maybe they were
It goes into the whole "if you see this inappropriate user conduct, flag it and disengage" thing
12:28
I don't think it makes a big difference
@3ventic we've moved way beyond the actual question at this point.
Honestly I'm not even entirely sure what's happening right now
In other news
It's one of the two National Donut Days today
3
So go enjoy a donut or whatever
user15026
Someone have a donut for me
12:33
That story of the dad in Japan just abandoning his son in the woods as punishment is wild
Luckily the kid was located safely
@tombull89 WTF... Trump is completely out of control
inb4 "TwoBugs is obsessed with trump"
That was one of the silliest things I've ever heard
Well yes, friday is full of silly things
Like partyin
Partying?
12:36
Hey!
Yeah!
and fun!
This is like Schrodingers punchline
I'm not actually familiar with the song.
You should take great pride in this
12:38
oh, you will be, Ronan. You will be.
user15026
@twobugs he was? Oh good.
@Ronan I just know the first note or so
@AshleyNunn Yup. After 6 nights in the forest.
@tombull89 I've been in the bridge long enough, if I don't know it by now...
@KevinvanderVelden I know the tune, just not the lyrics.
Allow me to educate you @Ronan
Yesterday was Thursday
Today is Friday
We we we so excited
We so excited
We gonna have a ball today
@twobugs pls
PLS
ignores @twobugs
I think I will stream tonight
gotta make my mind up
WHICH SEAT DO I TAEK?!
12:42
All of them
ew. messy.
Which moderator opening do I take?
WHICH GAME SHOULD I STREAM?
Overwatch
NEXT QUESTION
Hitman
12:43
NO MORE QUESTIONS
I should probably stream Hyper Light Drifter or something else
Maybe that game @Sterno gifted me, since it's actually good
I see that I literally just missed some drama.
I was thinking of restarting Grimrock 2 (I'm about an hour in, not much progress lost) and just streaming that the whole way through
user15026
@Sterno I applaud your dedication
@Sterno Summary: Retrosaur
12:46
Oh, thanks for reminding me of Grimrock 2! I also got about an hour in and never got back to it. It had been fun, though
@AshleyNunn Pssh, it took 20 seconds
Seriously though, that site is cool
The big complaint I've heard about Grimrock 2 is they tried to do boss fights which... don't quite work
I mean, if you just want to play around with building a site and learning javascript or throwing something together fast, it's awesome. if you already have your own webserver and know how to deal with node packages and all that garbage, then you don't need it
The final boss of 1 (also the only boss) was... uh... well, not exactly intimidating
And not really a 'boss', either
I will say something like hyperdev gets me a heck of a lot closer to writing Friday, the Incremental That You Can Only Play on Friday
Combat was never Grimrock's strong point
I've been kicking around ideas for an incremental for a while. I should finally hunker down and do that
12:48
I'm confused as to when permadeath actually kicks in on Fire Emblem: Fates.
See I like the combat in Grimrock. It's not amazing, but it was different enough that it entertained me
@Yuuki How so?
Even with permadeath on, certain characters will have plot armor and can't die before certain story events
@twobugs Axe person "died" during Chapter 4 or something and then is now magically under my control again in Chapter 7.
> Now, 10 years and several directors after it was first announced, “Warcraft” is finally here, and not only does it fail to bridge the gap between movies and video games, it self-immolates and swan-dives into the void, illuminating a dark rift that’s even deeper than it is wide. A grotesque, funhouse reflection of modern blockbuster cinema, the film is truly a staggering failure... <snipped to fit>
This review is like candy.
@twobugs See, this is confusing because I don't know who has plot armor and who doesn't.
@Yuuki Yep, it's bizarre
Basically the axe lady has plot armor even though she sucks
12:50
> Presented in garish 3D so vivid that viewers can practically feel the movie losing money in real time...
Which is too bad because I like her design and character class
But her growths are abysmal
@twobugs It doesn't help that there's that one level where you turn into a dragon and can one-shot everything. But also every enemy can one-shot your allies.
You doing birthright or conquest first?
I need to finish birthright
> The ones (orcs) who have lines are white, and the ones who exist as fodder for the action scenes are green — while this dichotomy almost certainly causes some kind of racial discord in the orc community, it’s also our only means of telling these things apart.
This is the dumbest bug ever
12:52
@twobugs I'm doing Birthright since that's apparently the better story.
@Unionhawk which one of @twobugs are you hating on?
Ugh, I appreciate that they fixed the weird legstubs from Awakening, but am utterly confused as to why the main character walks around barefoot.
@Yuuki I wanted to do Birthright first since apparently Conquest is the more traditional one
So I was saving it for second or something
@Yuuki "Armor".
13:01
> Painted green and sporting a set of plastic Halloween fangs on the wrong half of her teeth, Patton consistently looks like she’s about to lose a cos-play contest for her own character.
0
Q: How i can install FTB modpacks to MultiMC 5?

TassuI want to keep all of my minecraft instances in same place, and i want to add my FTB instances to MultiMC 5. Is it possible?

There was this interesting interview on NPR. It was an interview with Paul Simon. Apparently he and Garfunkel actually didn't really get along well
@twobugs I thought this was fairly well-known?
And he has a new album out right?
@twobugs this is an understatement.
@Yuuki yeah. It's meh.
@Yuuki I mean, Notch was always kind of a dick, but I feel like he's gone way off the deep end.
I didn't know it
Yeah... Notch is a weird guy
I feel kinda bad for him because I doubt he wanted to be thrust into the spotlight as much as he was. And it sounds like it has been really hard for him personally
IIRC he was married to someone... the marriage lasted 4 days long than what was stipulated in the pre-nup
13:20
Apparently, he's starting to mellow out a bit.
There was also that pretty openly racist tweet which was attributed to him and I've never been 100% sure if it was real or not
could I please take a moment to swear about how scandalous it is that Internet Explorer 11 does not have a simple string.startsWith() function?
@Nzall you may
I'll allow it
13:28
@Yuuki This is cool, my friends started playing this recently
They have this love-hate relationship with Monster Hunter
One of them hated 4U because he claims every other quest is a pink rath fight or a khezu fight. I claim he's wrong and stupid
I mean, seriously, every major browser supports it except for IE. Even Edge has it. Really, MS? You're too lazy to backport a basic String comparison tool to one of the most used browsers? And you expect people to use your software? I had to use the substring workaround and my code is a little bit uglier and harder to read because of you lazy fucks
@Yuuki was. The past few weeks he snapped back into form.
There. Glad I got that out of my system
Okay, now just to update the "Days since the last IE-only bug" counter to 0
const int days_since_last_IE_bug = 0;
@twobugs I think making it a constant is a little bit overblown
However, I first have to test if my solution for IE works in other browsers
Because otherwise we're borrowing from Larry to pay Satya
@tombull89 Ah fucking hell... I just realized I don't have my Black Flag user script on here...
13:36
0
Q: Can you get unlimited Hooded Cleanroom suits in Fallout 4? (console)

user149143I really want to equip a few of my settlers with the Hooded cleanroom suit, and whilst I know you can find one in the reactor room inside the Institute, I want to know if this suit will ever respawn anywhere or can be found anywhere else? thanks in Advance!

Does anyone have a link to that userscript that marks Rebecca Black links?
@Yuuki Depending on context, this seems like a legit response to me
Yeah, and he gets bonus points for rick and morty
WHAT THE SHIT TICKETMASTER
$10 SERVICE FEE
SERIOUS
I see a lot of online bill paying sites charge $20
So $10, while insane, is markedly less insane
It's 11.111111111%
13:46
Hey, man, they need to recoup that 3% credit card fee, and then use the rest of that money to build a Scrooge McDuck money vault
At least they aren't charging me to hold my pass at will call
or something stupid like that
The star list just RB trolled me. The circle is complete.
4
I tried to star that and my star got cleared :(
Or... not? Weird.
Maybe it did and then someone else starred it. Or...
-1
Q: How to completely erase my "Digital footprints"?

Severus TuxIs there any easy way to completely erase all my online information ? Everything, Facebook Google truecaller Twitter . . . everything else.

I don't even know what's supposed to be on-topic at Lifehacks anymore
At least it has a close vote, but then there's this:
1
Q: How to keep my phone number private, when I have to provide a way for students to contact me?

Amanda R.I am an instructor of classes that only run for 1-4 weeks. The facility I teach at requires me to include my cell phone number on the class schedule that I give out (however, I believe they would be ok if I didn't give a number if I gave some other means of contact). However, during and after the...

13:58
Sundar Pichai on the AI arms race: “we’re all trying to bring electricity to Westeros” https://live.theverge.com/sundar-pichai-google-ceo-code-conference-2016-live-blog/ https://t.co/MGGO8lWiJd
wat
I... huh?
When did the real world become actually Game of Thrones?
And how did I miss that
Also unless this was somehow his point I'm pretty sure that bringing electricity to Westeros won't exactly solve any problem they have
So basically AI is tech that addresses a problem we don't have?
I dunno, crazy
Well, the biggest conflict in Game of Thrones is that it's set in the world of Game of Thrones.
@Unionhawk who will die next? no one knows
Hmm... it's 10am and I already want lunch
Someone send help
14:03
@Unionhawk 10am is a perfect time for lunch.
@Unionhawk I have ribs slow-cooking in a crockpot at home. In about an hour I'm going to go home, eat some, and play Overwatch
@Yuuki Oh, so we can now play Monster Hunter on PC? I'd be up for an Arqade group of that.
“Brownie” didn’t make it very far. #NameAndroidN https://goo.gl/AausQD https://t.co/AnRWfRsfU1
Are.. they making the joke I think they're making?
Doubtful
@Ronan oh god no
14:07
I'm choosing to believe yes.
I mean to be fair their submission box is literally filled with nonsense
Well, I guess not literally filled since I assume they have way more storage than that
And the nonsense in their suggestion box makes it even less far
It's google, pretty sure they have all of the storage
I wonder what happens when you've gotten Literally All Of The Things in Overwatch
Mostly shame.
And for that matter, are lootboxes biased towards drops you don't have?
Because you can definitely get dupes
14:13
It does appear to be biased to try to evenly distribute drops
(It just immediately deconstructs them)
@twobugs I doubt it
I think I've already had at least one uncommon dupe, maybe even a rare dupe.
I'm guessing there's a slight bias towards stuff you don't have yet, but it doesn't seem huge
There are 21*54 things
minus some
There are a number of things, give or take a few numbers
14:15
Oh wait I should probably unignore @twobugs
@twobugs More specifically, it's probably a bias away from stuff you have. Which in the end amounts to the same thing.
@MBraedley Yeah probably
It just seems a little punishing as-is since you accrue lootboxes slower than Hearthstone packs and each item deconstructs into less currency
I guess the tradeoff is the items in Overwatch are literally meaningless
@twobugs Hey, I just got a Reinhardt skin that is very meaningful to me!
@Lazers2.0 what?
14:17
@MBraedley Yeah I don't know
@Lazers2.0 I know the answer
3
A: Lost all the blue icons on the world map

ardaozkalThat was a feature came with GTA Online Freemode Update, 1.29. 1) Open "Interaction" Menu (press m on pc) 2) Open "Hide Options" Menu 3) Open "Jobs" Menu 4) Switch to custom mode 5) Set all jobs to "show" Your blips must now be visible. If all aren't visible, repeat through the third ...

14:33
Hey, this is the most crowded chat of SE !
We are pretty famous
@Lordofdark Nah there's plenty of space.
SPAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACE
Pun intended.
So much space. Gotta see it all.
14:34
do you guys have to do this to everyone new?
@ardaozkal Do you even need to ask.
That space pun was top notch
Also wish me luck. will go through ~50 repos and fix the old and bad codes I used in them
Where was the pun?
It's a deep joke, going back to the idea that The Bridge is not like the Golden Gate Bridge but the Bridge of the Arqade Lazers Mothership
Well, maybe I need to read a bit of the chat to understand the pun
@Lordofdark have fun going through 2712300 messages :)
wow. Bridge is 1/10 of SE chat
2
Dear Chrome: If you can't download updates for the installed spell checker dictionaries, don't delete the existing ones, keep using them! Also, anyone know of an offline way of installing those dictionaries?
@ardaozkal 1/10 SE MESSAGES ARE FRIDAY: DATA ACCEPTED
Dec 17 '11 at 14:16, by badp
room topic changed to The Bridge: of Gaming's StackExchange™ AlienOverlord AskQuestion™ mothership, wherein we trade off some antialiasing on the ever-charging lazers and the lack of doors on the bridge with our new-found hats. http://hatdash.com We urge you to remember that the unicorn hug is not a valid replacement for pants. [doorlessness] [hatshatshatshatshatshats] [murder] [wipqozn-gravitation-law]
And to think that people say our room description is inane and/or insane now
14:44
@ardaozkal How do you see total number of messages ?
@Unionhawk Also see: BriQAde
@Lordofdark hit info on right sidebar
ok found it -_-
I should add freehand drawing to ownshot
That should be a priority 1-Urgent importance 1-Critical new feature
0
Q: PES 2013 problem with Vram

user149151I have Lenovo G50 with the following: Windows 8.1 (64-bit) 6 GB RAM Intel Core i5 5200U CPU @ 2.20 GHz(4 CPUs) Intel HD Graphics 5500 (internal) AMD Radeon R5 M330 (2GB) The problem is when I run PES 2015 it works very well. Why PES 2015 can detect my Vram, while PES 2013 does not

14:48
Hmm, I should lunch outside the office today
Where tho
Qdoba is not an option
Just saw in the transcript there was talk of Simon & Garfunkel, so I thought I'd use that to segue into this week's fun fact science corner: Art Garfunkel has perfect pitch. Not many singers can say that about themselves.
*segway
(it totally makes sense as a word to use in that context shh)
Segue
Seriously though, segways can be used to transition from place to place, why not from point of speaking to point of speaking?
IT MAKES SENSE DANGIT
pseghwae
14:53
> Key Employee target market (insurance)
...as in for companies who aren't sure if they pass the bus test?
@fredley Have you been able to get back into running?
0
Q: Will changing clothes last minute help me get more souls?

zaroseI'm mostly concerned about bosses, but I guess this could apply to other enemies too. Upon killing most bosses, they usually have some dramatic death animation, and only when it's totally finished will you be rewarded with whatever phrase replaced "YOU DEFEATED", the boss's soul item, and a bount...

I'm trying to do more running stuff and was just curious about other people's experiences. I find running on a treadmill much easier than on a track, for example
I like rowing machines for cardio

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