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10:01 PM
My post on /r/gamerec isn't showing up.
And pitivi has now stolen iTunes' title as the most buggy program I use.
 
@Macha Hm?
 
@badp Submitted it twenty minutes ago, no sign of it except in my user page.
 
@Macha New post or comment?
 
Post
 
@Macha Hm, if all else fails, mind linking to it?
Not even the feed got it.
 
@Macha It has been removed... probably by you?
Had it been me or arda, it'd say "[removed by ...]", but I just get "[removed]"
I can approve it, but I'd rather know first if you'd removed it yourself or something :|
 
It hasn't...
 
Does it show up in my user profile: reddit.com/user/MachaHack?
 
@Macha Yes, as removed.
...and, as anon, as public.
wtf.
Anyway, I approved it.
 
Oak
Poll re-opened.
 
@Oak \o/
 
Oak
See my comment - I've used my super-vote but I don't consider that a mod-power abuse
Since I'm also pretty sure I represent Grace
And it was 3/5
I hope others accept that...
 
grr
the transcript says this post is pinned, but it clearly isn't
Dec 9 at 18:18, by badp
What should be done with questions asking for game recommendations? (or, more proof that this community is absolutely consensus free.)
(I unpinned it today when the post got closed.)
 
Where is the link to cast my vote to abstain?
 
Oak
10:35 PM
Wait, @Raven voted both for closing AND re-opening it?
 
@WillfulWizard Here.
 
Oak
@Willful you remind me I shouldn't even be here on stupid chat, I should be playing my recently-patched civ instead
Then again, chatting doesn't feel as much a procrastination as gaming.
 
@Oak I never feel guilty about gaming either, under the pretense that it keeps me sane. :P
 
The whole thing is a big mess, which is not really anyone's fault (anyone alone anyway). I don't that much care anymore which way we go with game-recs, because the drama has become more important than the solutions.
@Oak True. I wish I could be doing that now.
 
Oak
@Tim good for you :) over the entire course of my life, I think I only had 3 years in which video gaming felt truly guilt-free
Rest of the time there's... mostly homework
 
10:39 PM
0
Q: Is there a PC multiplayer game for King of Fighters?

UnKnownMany people say that they are the best in King of Fighters ver. 1.3. I also wondered if there is a player better than I am, but the only way to figure that out is by playing them in a multiplayer game. I have heard of a new version where Mai and Chun Li would be released, but so far, I haven't f...

 
Oak
@Willful yes, it's a mess. The last thing I want is to fracture the community, to make anyone fed up and want to leave the site... but I'm afraid I've failed
 
@Oak Don't feel too bad about it. It's...really a combination of things.
 
@Oak Feelings will be hurt anyway.
 
@badp Yeah, that's true.
 
That's why I'm looking for immediate alternative solutions linked with Gaming :)
 
Oak
10:43 PM
@Mana I don't feel too bad about anything at the moment, see that starred message on the right :)
But it would be a damn shame if users leave because of that
2
Q: How to delete gaming account

AardvarkIs there a way to permanently delete a gaming stack exchange account?

 
@Oak He said earlier before in chat it isn't linked
 
Oak
@badp oh I didn't know
 
@Aardvark you forgot to mention you want to permanently delete your account if game-rec get's approved
 
2 hours ago, by Aardvark
lol I don't care about game-rec
 
If @tzenes leaves I DON'T KNOW IF I'LL BE ABLE TO GO ON IN THIS WORLD
okay maybe that's a bit dramatic but I will miss those insightful Starcraft 2 answers
 
Oak
10:47 PM
It would be a damn shame if anyone leaves, especially tzenes, he's a real asset to the site.
But I can respect his opinion.
 
Yeah.
 
Oak
What frightened me about Aardvark is that I thought he wants to leave because of the actual argument taking place
Which is worse than leaving due to the selected policy
But I guess I was wrong.
 
It's still sad, though!!
 
Oak
Indeed. All I want is to reach some decision, though, whether good or bad.
Some decision > no decision
At least in my eyes
Well, as long as the decision isn't too disastrous, I guess, but I honestly do not see any of the proposed policies as completely disastrous
 
True.
goes off to fix that
 
Oak
11:00 PM
340 rep more...
The bad thing about being a mod is that reaching 10k is no longer exciting :(
 
yup @Oak, you can blame me for that one
 
Oak
Blame you for what?
 
@Ivo I guess I had this coming by leaving my question on Meta so vague. My question seems to have re-fueled this game recs debate. Let me clarify: I don't care about game rec's and I never have. I haven't been here very long (barely over a month) but I came here because I love video games and I love to help people.
 
@Aardvark However..?
 
hehe, I was just kidding, just so you know ;)
 
11:07 PM
okay you probably would've said why if you'd wanted to
 
@badp Besides the obvious? I feel I ended up joining a community where people can't even agree to disagree. Where a high rep user out-weighs a low rep user. I don't give a damn about my reputation points or the points of others, I just wanted to join a community where I could learn and teach about my favorite pass-time.
 
Oak
High-rep users outweight low-rep users only with regards to some specific things
Like closing duplicates and the such
But it's not like high-rep users' answers get ranked higher
 
@Oak what if a user of 200 rep told you he would leave if game recs was allowed?
 
@Aardvark The problem is our mods don't feel in charge enough to rule with an iron fist, despite the amount of love we shower them with
"but you didn't choose us!"
 
Oak
@Aardvark wait so this is about the game-rec debate? I thought it wasn't
 
11:11 PM
@oak i'm using it as an example for the high -> low rep argument... My view on game rec's hasn't changed at all. I still don't care
 
@Oak forget about game-recs, he was just using that as an example to show that we care more about users with higher rep.
 
@Aardvark If game recs were allowed, we'd lose several users. If game recs were disallowed, we'd lose several users. If game recs were only partly allowed, guess what, we'd lose several users.
2
 
but
 
Oak
Oh
 
There's no making everyone happy, so we must choose policies based on how they improve the site, not based on how many people ragequit as a result.
 
11:12 PM
@badp then our moderators should decide... that is why their moderators
 
2 mins ago, by badp
@Aardvark The problem is our mods don't feel in charge enough to rule with an iron fist, despite the amount of love we shower them with
Elections should start soon.
That'll change as a result.
 
Oak
@Aardvark I think it's a shame if anyone leaves the site for any reason. It's especially bad for high-rep users because they bring a lot of traffic to the site, which in turn make the site better. And I care about the future of the site, for some reason.
 
@oak a user with low rep is just as capable of good answers as a user with high rep. If theres a decision to be made it should be done and lived with, no more of these arguments and veiled jabs. Make a decision and live with it for the good of the site, not the good of the user
 
Oak
@Aardvark But I definitely don't think only high-rep users count. In fact, I'm a firm believer in the "long tail" - I think that it's better to have tons of low-rep users than a few high-rep ones, if only because of the diversity. There isn't a single gamer alive who have played 10,000 games over his lifetime, but among 3000 users I'm sure we can reach that number.
 
@Aardvark "If theres a decision to be made it should be done and lived with" ← AMEN
 
11:15 PM
@oak if these things are more important then the community and crux of the site (gaming) then I stand by my decision that this isn't the right place for me
 
Oak
@Aardvark what things?
I never said I wouldn't support any policy just because it will make people leave
 
'even masters were a novice once'
 
Oak
I just said it would be a damn shame
 
and now we're fighting over the the fact that we're fighting :P
 
oh man
 
11:16 PM
@Ivo Meta-fight
 
Oak
And while definitely losing high-rep users hurt the site more, it doesn't mean they are more "right" in the policies they support
And sorry
if I'm too assertive
didn't mean to start an argument :)
 
I think we're having a meta.meta.meta.meta.fight @Aardvark :)
 
Oak
@Aardvark and maybe you're right and I do display some anti-low-rep-guys bias, even when I think I don't :)
 
@Aardvark The problem with "high rep users" (of which you are one) is that they use the site more, and know better how it works and how it doesn't work. While everyone's upvote is worth the same, their reputation does carry some weight.
Think of it as the amount of effort they invested in the site.
 
Oak
@badp it especially carries some weight regarding meta-decisions
For example, mod elections
But it certainly doesn't carry extra weight in regular questions
 
11:20 PM
@Oak you need what, 150 to vote and 250 to step up?
 
also that high rep users know how to game the system, by using a certain format and having clearer answers, because the past has shown that those get upvoted more
 
In mod elections (I hope!) everybody's vote counts the same, once you can vote.
 
Oak
@badp 150 and 300
 
well, that means less than 5% of our userbase can step up :)
 
@oak make a decision and stand behind it. No more battles in chat, no more sides, no more veiled insults between users in chat. The important thing isn't the decision but the feeling of community. The lack of community is what turned me off
2
 
11:21 PM
@Aardvark That's what we've been trying to do
The question was posted Dec 2nd
 
Oak
27 mins ago, by Oak
Some decision > no decision
@Aardvark no argument here
 
I wouldn't say that @Aardvark, we care so strongly about our community that we want to fight for it ;-)
 
@Aardvark ouch, it pains me to hear you say the "lack of community" when the community as it is is my favorite part of the site.
 
Maybe, before you complain about decision making, you could've been more involved in the process of decision making :)
 
but you would do the community a large disservice if you left!
 
Oak
11:22 PM
But I'm not going to make a decision by myself. I definitely do not have the mandate.
 
hold on, the community cares more about high rep users than low? Since when?
 
sure you do :P
 
You left 1 meta post and 47 chat messages prior to today, @Aardvark.
 
you know we love your more than anyone else @tzenes
 
Gotta admit it's kinda unfair to point a finger onto us without trying yourself.
 
Oak
11:23 PM
It's impossible not to love tzenes, he has a roach as an avatar
 
auch and @badp goes for a shot below the waist
 
@badp My interest has been and will always be in answering questions. I have been here barely over a month
 
If everyone loves me so much why do I constantly have to fight for things that should be taken for granet
 
@Aardvark That's perfect, meta and chat aren't obligatory
 
@badp if you want me to make a decision I'll flip a coin and call it good, the decision isn't whats important
 
11:24 PM
but if you're going to complain about meta and chat, participating helps your case.
 
@tzenes It's a terrible love.
 
because you take things far too seriously @tzenes ;)
 
Oak
:)
 
@Aardvark Do you think I wouldn't go ahead and try it if I could get others to live with it?
 
I don't know, but I have to side with Aardvark here
I'm tired of having to spend time cleaning up this mess
 
11:25 PM
@badp I don't have a 'case', I merely had a meta post that got sucked into the drama I was trying to avoid
 
just make a decision
 
you're leaving too? Can I have your rep?
 
stop with the polls, stop with the posts, just pick something
 
Oak
Who will pick something?
 
It's easy to say "Let's pick something", but that sentence doesn't mention who
 
11:26 PM
you Oak
 
@Oak yes, thank you
 
or Grace
 
@tzenes that's what the chat activity prior to the poll aimed to do
 
I'm siding on the left
see you folks another day
 
bye @Ivo!!
 
11:26 PM
try not to kill each other while I'm gone
 
No, that's more discussion
just pick something
 
Oak
Night @Ivo!
 
So you weren't really trying to convince people?
 
bye y'all!
 
you made a poll, but couldn't stick with the poll because it didn't give you what you wanted
 
11:26 PM
@tzenes The ball's rolling, must live with it now and suck it till the 23rd
 
so you botched the poll, but you still don't have the balls to just say: here is what we're going to do
this is what should have happened back in september
its December now
 
Oak
You mean me specifically?
 
any one of you mods
 
all the mods really
 
If each one of us was as good as we'd like to believe we were, we wouldn't be here now
so maybe there's fault in all of us
 
11:28 PM
no, not all of us have the power to change things
 
Oak
If I were a regular user, I'm not sure I would accept a decision by a pro-temp mod. Definitely not a decision made by just one of them.
 
@Oak to be fair, this isn't maths (low blow ×2)
 
@sjohnston I commend you for trying
 
but you have the power to exclude options?
 
11:29 PM
and also @oak, for listening to me
 
@badp +10 for this :P
 
its the same thing
just pick already
 
@tzenes It was maybe lost on you but Grace didn't mark the option excluded until its owner removed it hisself.
If she wanted she could've slapped a "NO THIS DOES NOT COUNT" from minute 1
 
Yeah I wasn't clear on what happened
 
She instead decided to go through the painful process of explaining to him why it was bad
 
11:30 PM
but it doesn't matter because clearly someone tried to revert it
 
until he gave up
and only then slapped the thing
because just slapping NO THIS DOES NOT COUNT would've felt as abuse
It wasn't the mods removing the option
 
probably because it still is
 
It was its author.
 
it doesn't matter who caused the abuse, it doesn't stop being abuse
 
@tzenes Bullshit
 
11:32 PM
argh dumb debate is dumb the policy was struck from the vote and that's not changing
 
"I'm still watching, you know." is a chat reply for a snarky comment from @Brant
 
Ok so I see some rollbacks in here
what was rolled back?
 
Edit 4
 
why was it locked?
 
The removal was edit 6
The lock was in reply to @Brant who jokingly said he'd revert edit 6
 
11:33 PM
ok, so it was locked to prevent someone from reverting it
 
the lock was removed minutes later
 
does that sound right?
 
Oak
Instead of guessing, why won't you just ask @Grace and @Brant what happened?
 
largely because its irrelevant
 
@tzenes the lock was removed minutes later indeed
 
11:34 PM
0
A: What should be done with questions asking for game recommendations?

WillfulWizardJust Pick Already We've discussed, we've argued, we've voted, and we've had problems with all of them. I give up. I would like to cast my vote to empower our Mods to decide and enforce a policy on Game-Recs. I don't care if its Allowed. I don't care if its Off Topic. I don't care if its some gr...

 
> Locking really is going too far, no one's demonstrated that they're actually vengeful enough. Also, Brant, I know you only said "what if" ♪
 
@oak this is exactly what I'm referring too. Does this strike you as 'community'?
 
ok, so if I want to revert it now, that should be fine?
 
@tzenes That should be vandalism
You're not respecting the author by editing it that way
 
I'm only respecting the other people who voted for it
ok
so what I'm saying is that he doesn't have the authority to remove the option from the running
 
11:35 PM
@Aardvark this strikes me as a discussion by people who care about the site and want what's best for it
 
even though he first proposed it
because any one else could have proposed it and those votes would have followed
 
@tzenes Where are the other 66 people who upvoted this choice?
 
And if I am one of the 66?
are you satisfied then?
 
Oak
@tzenes as I've said, when Grace said "you can withdraw this policy if you want to" I wanted to go a write a big fat "no, you can't, it's no longer yours to remove with the number of votes it got" in the comments
 
@Aardvark While I agree with some of the other points you made I really can't agree with you judging the strength of our community based on debates we have over a single important issue.
 
11:37 PM
@WillfulWizard vote that stuff up
 
@tzenes Then I'd go over why the choice is unacceptable, just for you
 
It doesn't matter why it sucks, those are your opinions
just like my opinion can be all game-rec sucks
 
Would a question asking how to deal with annoying members of a gaming community be closed as off-topic?
 
@tzenes see there's the difference, "all" is objective
 
does that give me the right to throw up away a purely pro-game-rec option?
sucks isn't
 
11:38 PM
if it was purely pro-game-rec none of this wouldn't have happened
 
why not?
the purely pro-game-rec person could do the same thing to his post
 
indeed the "ALL ARE OKAY" option is still there with +32 or somesuch
what about those 32 people??
 
in fact, if I wanted to sabotage any future vote, all I have to do is put up the position I am against and then later say: ooops, guess this one sucks
 
@tzenes the option that sucks is still there
the unacceptable option isn't
 
Oak
I doubt anyone there wanted to sabotage anything
 
11:40 PM
@badp you'll have to be more specific, they both suck and they're both unacceptable
 
anyway. nite. rant you tomorrow.
 
@Oak how do you know?
 
Oak
Night @badp!
@tzenes I don't. I'm a naive and incorrigibly optimistic person.
 
maybe Bruce secretly hates game-rec
 
Oak
no sarcasm intended
 
11:40 PM
and this is his plan to make sure it dies
 
Oak
If that's the case, he definitely got me, since I believe him :)
 
What if tomorrow badp does the same thing to the anti-game-rec post?
 
Oh noes, serious discussion!
 
what happens then?
 
Oak
I dunno, we'll see
 
11:41 PM
@Mana I'd reinforce this point with the fact that this kind of incident isn't common for SE sites on the whole; the focus is always on the quality and accessibility of the information related to the topic at hand, not about quibbling between users and the like. :)
 
ja, that's true.
 
Oak
Yo @Raven
 
ello 'oak
 
Oak
And bye @Raven :)
 
g'bye oak
 
11:43 PM
@Oak What do you mean "we'll see"?
 
Oak
Sorry @tzenes, but it is really late
 
forget it
I don't know why I bother
 
@Tim I think @Aardvark's just not used to the intensity with which we debate this kind of stuff. Particularly @tzenes can sound very angry and hostile until you realize that's just the way he defends his opinion.
2
 
Oak
@tzenes forgotten, then.
 
@Mana he sounds pretty serious to me
 
11:44 PM
@Mana I have a hard time relating to other people
 
@tzenes I noticed the same thing when you and I got into it over the [game-info] tag.
:P
 
Its just the way I talk
 
@tzenes yeah, we all do. That's why debate game-rec on the internet
 
I don't seem to pick up on other people's social cues
 
@Aardvark Oh, don't get me wrong, he's being pretty serious. But a lot of what you seem to interpret as hostility really isn't.
 
11:45 PM
like when I first asked what was going on Grace took it as me being offensive
and I wasn't trying to be
I just can't seem to express opinions without people feeling that way
 
Oak
@tzenes you do sound very angry and hostile. But at the end I guess both of us want the same thing - a healthy gaming Q&A website.
 
@mana he seems pretty serious to me. In fact we seem to be on the same page, that whats important is the answers to the questions being asked on the site.
 
Oak
Sorry just had to say
g'night
 
I'm not really angry
 
We all love @tzenes! Even the people who debate with him. @Oak is usually one of the first to acknowledge he's a very very important member of the site particularly because of how he raises issues like this.
 
11:47 PM
@mana I'm not sure I'm really that important
 
@Aardvark Again, he's being serious but he's not being hostile at all.
 
I think I just stand out a lot
once Raven has more rep than me people will probably notice me less
 
@Mana Yeah, I was a little surprised with the...intensity of the conversation myself. That being said, compared to uh....a certain other site...it's still pretty mild...and somehow that site hasn't burst into flamed yet. ;)
 
I like the fact that @tzenes will debate his opinion. I wish more people did that.
 
that'll make my life better
 
11:48 PM
That's not going to happen; I looked the other day. We have approx. the same number of answers, but yours are almost always better than mine.
I write answers, you publish Editorials.
And that's a good thing, I think.
 
Mine tend to be hit or miss
either 10 or 0
you have a lot in the sub 10 range
it adds up
also the relative distance between our rep has been steadily closing
 
Not so much. I was stayin' at about 5k behind you for a while.
 
Some days I dream about writing questions with 1000 rep bounties just to dump some
 
Oak linked the average rep/day for the top users, you have almost double me.
 
In my dream I am the man. It's me.
2
 
11:49 PM
@Raven yeah, but you were 5k behind when I was at 10k
 
@LessPopMoreFizz has the 3rd highest, I believe.
 
give it time
 
@tzenes that sounds like an excellent christmas present for someone :)
 
I've basically stopped earning rep.
I've run out of things to ask. :P
 
incidently I think @sjohnston would make a good mod
 
11:51 PM
I don't think I'd make a good mod.
 
and I'm late now
so bbl
I know I wouldn't
 
ciao.
 
what an enigmatic way to leave, leaving poor sjohnston hanging like that
 
bye
 
jk go
 
11:53 PM
@GnomeSlice -- just try to answer everything you have even the remotest knowledge of.
I haven't played WoW in 2 years, but that hasn't stopped me from trying to answer the WoW questions! :P
 
@tzenes wait...what? A good copy-editor, maybe...
 
@RavenDreamer I don't really have much knowledge of most of the commonly asked games.
 
Why does he show up as having 22.5k rep?
 
@RavenDreamer it's cumulative across sites
 
Because he's tzenes, and his rep score raises in anticipation of his answers, before he posts them.
2
 
11:55 PM
ha
 
I wonder if it's counting the 101 you get from registering at the various SE sites
There's an easy way to inflate your chat rep ego
 
applies all Jon Skeet references to Tzenes, just to get that out of the way
 
Is @Oak getting married?
 
it sounds that way
 
ja, he is.
 
11:56 PM
Good for him.
 
Really? I hadn't heard.
 
He thinks life's pretty dope right now.
 
Women. Who needs them.
 
Men, and some women.
 
pfft
 
11:57 PM
Bah.
 
blargh
 
Are Dwarf Fortress modding questions liable to get answered on our site, ya think?
 
...Did I derail your serious discussion?
 
I want to mod some stuffs, but I don't know hows.
 
@Raven Game dev, maybe? I forget what our policy is on mod questions
 
11:59 PM
I thought it was fine here.
 
Oh, I know it's within our scope (we've had Civ IV mod questions)
 
As long as we weren't asking for places to find warez/etc.
 
I believe mods are A-OK, so long as you're not doing something illegal
 
ohh
 
It's more a question of, "does anyone on this site who plays dwarf fortress also know the intricacies of modding dwarf fortress"
 
11:59 PM
I thought you were talking about making mods
 

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