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19:00
this way if the wiki idea crashes and burns, we at least didn't waste dev/sysadmin time on a doomed project.
I'm sure @fredley would provide hosting for a mediawiki
@OrigamiRobot ...why do they have shovels?
that could be pointed to from stackgaming
@BenBrocka Oh, you know, things.
@fredley has already said he would provide hosting for stuff like this in the past
anyway I'm bored of this wiki conversation already
19:01
I can provide hosting for any web stuff
it feels like a pointless exercise
@kalina It's probably not the exciting kind of thing, yeah
I think we should have a wiki for @kalina.
who wants to play payday 2?
I want to, but I'm going to bed soon
19:02
@3ventic yeah, but I was thinking about relying on an existing third party to contain link breakage on migration
meh
I'm still recovering from my temporary thought that ITG was coming back.
I'll just watch a movie and sleep then
Wikia ruins everything they touch.
5 mins ago, by badp
@GraceNote Well, "wikia" was just the first thing that came up to mind for "low-entry kind-of-painless push-button wiki hosting right now, no approval required, just start writing"
By all means, I don't like wikia either
I'm sure there's better stuff out there. I don't like the trac wiki engine, e.g., but we could make do with it.
19:03
@badp you should just tag everything on meta that becomes policy with or something unique, get SE to make it a mod only tag or something
I don't see the reason behind scattering the way we work out all over the internet
@kalina what meta question isn't policy?
uh, well theres plenty of stuff on meta that is complete bullshit and that's certainly not policy
A: the closed and deleted ones
all you're going to do is basically transplant a list of questions from meta to another site, instead of just looking at theh list of questions
@kalina I said question, not "answer"
19:04
26
Q: So I heard you like Magic cards

OrigamiRobotAfter the people over at Board & Card Games made a promotional Magic card, I thought it would be fun to card-ify some of the people here. They were apparently very popular (mostly) and people were asking for more. So here are some of the cards I made. If you want to make your own, just downloa...

@badp and I still stand by what I said
I would go find you examples, but it would take an actual blind person to realise that half of the questions on meta aren't policy
@kalina just get one lent to you
woah that was random
@kalina on principle, every question on meta is policy. Sure, there's some fun/community extra stuff, but still
@kalina I was looking at my inbox.
why would that be in your inbox?
are you stalking me?
19:07
He missed the time of the initial ping so it goes to his inbox to warn him.
I didn't ping him
59 mins ago, by Ben Brocka
@badp It's that low already?
I assume that's the one he was going from.
aye aye cap'n
But I prefer the @kalina stalking theory.
It would make for a better TV show
obviously, that theory ends with me setting him on fire
19:09
12 secs ago, by OrigamiRobot
It would make for a better TV show
the tv show would be a michael bay special with explosions for no reason
and people walking away from them in slow motion
The frequent questions on meta are mostly about game recommendations and in which form they're allowed, and most of them seem to be outdated.. :(
@OrigamiRobot The first seasons of Break Kalina's already finished
@GraceNote Can you delete a post on SO for me (I'm the OP, opened a ticked a while ago and until now, no answer)
and the ratings for the second seasons are pretty low. Thing's really slow.
19:10
@Michel Link?
@3ventic exactly, only the post ending in a final policy decision would be marked as such
@kalina And that one is nowhere to be found for new users browsing the meta.
-1
Q: Convert String to DateTime CutureInfo

MichelI'm sending a date from javascript to a service. The date comes as "9/23/2013 12:00:00 AM" And I want to convert it to a DateTime. but it threw an exception DateTime.Parse(dataInicial) 'DateTime.Parse(dataInicial)' threw an exception of type 'System.FormatException' System.DateTime {System.Fo...

@GraceNote Sorry for the trouble =X
Only nerds read Meta.
@3ventic and then you'd provide a direct link to whatever the policy tag ended up being in the FAQ
so they're easy to find
19:10
@Sterno Or people trying to understand how the site works.
THIS IS NOT HARD PEOPLE
@Michel Reason for deletion?
@3ventic That's what I said.
@Sterno clever
I wish someone would make a good argument (in Meta) for why Lore should go. So far it's mostly been "they cause problems" without listing any of the actual problems.
19:11
@GraceNote "careless mistake question" + "Too localized" + "Useless to others"
@Sterno Lore shouldn't go
Lore should stay
the people who don't like Lore questions should go
problem resolved
@kalina I agree, but I feel the opposition hasn't even tried to make their case.
@Sterno that's because there isn't a real case to make
@Sterno Is there a case other than "they cause trouble"?
@Michel I must have at least 10 self-deleted questions like that :(
19:12
0
A: Should lore questions as an entire category be banned?

fbueckertLore questions add nothing tangible or useful whatsoever to our expertise. At best, these questions turn into hunting down obscure bits of relevant info about the in-game story, quite often well outside our scope of playing games. At worst, they cross the line into design territory, or poke a p...

You rang?
@3ventic Yes! Define what is meant by "trouble!"
A bunch of people don't want to answer lore questions, and as such, they want them to go
@fbueckert Well timed, sir! Well timed!
Also, feel free to downvote into oblivion. I know it's going to happen.
@fbueckert I would, but I'd have to read it first, and only nerds read Meta.
19:13
@Sterno trouble: time consuming complaints about the usefulness of a question
50 secs ago, by kalina
A bunch of people don't want to answer lore questions, and as such, they want them to go
@kalina This strawmanning doesn't help anyone.
That is the actual problem, and a month from now after everybody has hashed it out, that will be the actual conclusion
@fbueckert Sorry, had to :X
@fbueckert I'll need to read this when I get home from Sushis, since I tend to agree with @Sterno. I don't feel liek anyone has really posted why they're troubleosme.
19:14
@Michel It's fine. I feel passionately that lore is utterly useless, but I'm in the minority on that one.
Just "I hate Lore questions"
@Michel Done.
@fbueckert Some are, others aren't. Depends on each question (My opinion)
@fbueckert your meta post basically says the same. Again, I covered this in my post:
> The problem with some lore questions is that they're asking about information that simply does not exist - they're speculative questions that can only be answered by the development team for the game in question, if at all. We already know these questions are bad and they're already not welcome here. These questions should be dealt with using close votes and delete votes.
@fbueckert That strongly depends on the game.
19:15
@GraceNote How can I pay for you? hugs? kisses? a ticket to watch Iron Maiden?
@fbueckert tell me that the story in a story driven game is pointless, when it makes up more of the game than the mechanics
@Michel No, definitely no, definitely no, no thank you.
@kalina Which is still a main problem, as you have to know the answer in order to vote.
@GraceNote then, Ponies ?
19:16
@fbueckert that is not a prerequisite of anything. Nowhere does it say "only questions we already know the answer to can be asked on this site"
@Wipqozn I don't hate lore questions.
@fbueckert Also:
@GraceNote ok, I tried ... So, at least let me thank you. :)
Maybe I'm missing something, but I just don't see the avalanche of horrible lore questions that is supposed to be there. I strongly dislike the "poke at some obvious plot hole" type of question, but that is something downvotes can deal with, and I don't see any large problem that would necessitate such drastic steps as banning lore questions entirely.
3 mins ago, by fbueckert
@kalina This strawmanning doesn't help anyone.
19:17
@Michel You're welcome.
@kalina It's one of the shittier parts of lore. You have to know it exists in order to vote for/against.
You have to know the answer exists.
@fbueckert That's no reason for the question to be off topic
@fbueckert 'Nobody knows for sure' can be a valid answer, can't it?
@kalina It's shitty criteria in general.
Basically, you're saying "I don't like these questions because they may or may not have an answer"
and that's really poor.
19:18
@fbueckert You have to know the answer in order to vote on almost any answer.
@MadScientist Except when they get far more upvotes than downvotes.
@kalina I'm saying I don't like them because they're useless.
Yay. I know Tyreal's an angel.
Fantastic.
What good does this do?
@fbueckert TO YOU.
The story in the game is far more important than the mechanics for LOTS of people
Useless is the wrong word.
@kalina And that's why it's a COMMUNITY.
I present my viewpoint.
Which you are free to agree or disagree with.
19:19
All of your mechanics questions about "how much XP you need to level up" are far more useless questions TO ME.
Don't belittle my viewpoint because you, personally, don't like it.
@fbueckert Don't classify my viewpoint as "useless" then
You're stating that the reason I play games is for the "useless" part of games
You're saying that the reason I play games is off topic on a website about games
Everyone knows @kalina plays games to shoot bank tellers in the face.
and then you expect me not to laugh at you for being silly?
@kalina Don't get me wrong. I love lore. It's one of the main reasons I play RPGs. I just don't think they make good questions on Arqade.
19:20
don't talk to me about being belittled
Banning questions about the story of games would be a really bad idea, and there is no easy line between bad lore questions and good questions about the lore and story of a game.
Because the knowledge inherent in lore grants zero in-game advantage whatsoever.
@fbueckert WRONG
@fbueckert Lore provides the advantage of immersion, one of the biggest and most fundamental parts of gaming
@MadScientist Yeah, and our current stance is, honestly, stupid.
19:21
@fbueckert This is where I don't follow the argument too well. I get your argument that you find them useless, and you don't want useless questions here. I disagree with it, but I get it. I'm not sure I've seen a good explanation yet for "why they don't make good questions" (unless it simply goes back to "they're useless")
Other than poke the plothole, which obviously suck
@Sterno I addressed that in my answer.
@Sterno poke the plothole suffers from other issues that already make it off topic in most cases
like speculation
@fbueckert I had to skim it because all the talk in here. I'll go finish reading!
I play many games mainly for the story, and very often the story is more important to me than the game mechanics. So why should we ban questions about the story?
@kalina Immersion has nothing to do with playing a game. That's all psychological.
19:22
or "why did they design it like that"
which is already off topic
I agree, I love story. It's why I'm going to play Lightning Returns.
@fbueckert I'm out of this conversation, I really can't take your argument against lore seriously. Not when you say things like this.
Enjoy
Some gamers care to learn about numbers. Some care to learn about words. I don't think we as a site should value one over the other in what knowledge we provide.
9
@fbueckert Have you ever played Proteus?
19:23
@fbueckert Finished reading and still not sure. Are you talking about the "when do we close" thing?
That's essentially a paraphrase of summat I wrote in my answer which is why the entirety of my answer is spent making a parallel between game mechanics and lore.
One reason I asked is that I felt ITGs had some pretty major problems as relates to the Q&A, upvote/downvote system here.
I mean, those questions, within this system, just didn't work well.
@Sterno Quite a bit of it is the same as your other question; you have to know the answer in order to know whether it's on or off topic.
And, for the record, I absolutely abhor any action that's essentially, "Meh. Let it pass."
@fbueckert Okay, I think I follow you. My proposal was "let's fix this stupidity by not closing for that reason". You disagree with that option, therefore see it as a still open issue.
@Sterno Very much so. It's the basis for apathy.
19:25
@MichaelDunfield Dude, why do you even ask? You're on ignore.
@Sterno Eh, I just like talking.
@Sterno Don't tell him what to do!
@fbueckert I disagree with that. Wanting to stop closing for an obviously broken reason isn't apathy.. Continuing to go down the broken path is apathy, IMO. But we disagree on that thing and don't really need to rehash it here.
@fbueckert I still iterate that this is skipping the effects of what that actually does for cleaning things up, but I'm not going to dive into that.
Instead I'm going to spend a little time to hunt down examples of mechanical questions that are on equal terms of "need to know the answer to judge it".
It is becoming increasingly obvious to me that I am alone in my position on this subject.
19:29
@GraceNote I'd be interested to see that.
@fbueckert how important is lore in gaming?
@kalina For me?
no, to the world
@OrigamiRobot I've been waiting for you to answer.
this isn't a site for you personally
19:30
Ask the Magic 8 Ball
@Sterno I already know it wont go over well, so I am avoiding it.
@fbueckert how important is lore in gaming to the vast majority of the people who play games?
@kalina Yeah, no, I ain't going down that road. We've already decided to agree to disagree, so let's leave it at that.
@fbueckert so you're not going to answer me because you know that lore is important, you just don't like lore yourself and so you're pushing your own agenda, right?
Way to put words in my mouth.
19:31
you won't open your mouth to say your own words
I have no choice but to guess
Either way, this isn't useful. I'm not going to argue this with you.
If lore is "useless", as you put it
Why did the entire world erupt in anger when the ending to Mass Effect was terrible?
@Sterno I can't put forth my argument when other people are using the words I use incorrectly.
@kalina Because the world is dumb and entitled.
But I still agree with you.
Considering that "the world" is our target audience
19:33
@kalina I'm a lore nut, but even I didn't understand why the hate here.
@Coronus the ending was terrible but probably not worth most of the hate, blame mob mentality
the same mob mentality we have here trying to make lore questions off topic for reasons like "they're useless" or "they're trouble"
reasons that don't actually explain anything
but we're just meant to accept them as reasons
Anyways, lunch time!
@fbueckert What's the name of that game that you're super pissed about from Kickstarter? Star Command?
19:37
@StrixVaria Is that the one in the new Humble Bundle?
@Coronus Star Command is in the new Humble Bundle. I want to know if it's the same game that they were having difficulties with on Kickstarter.
@StrixVaria star citizen I think
@kalina Oh yeah, that does sound right.
either way it's either not out yet or only just out, I doubt it will be in a humble bundle
@StrixVaria Yep, Star Command is the one. They ran out of funding (twice) and were 'almost done' for years?
19:45
@StrixVaria looking at it, @fbueckert has never said "star citizen" but has mentioned "star command" loads
Mar 26 at 16:17, by fbueckert
I've stopped caring about Star Command. If it releases, it's a pleasant surprise.
Surprise!
Aug 1 '12 at 16:38, by fbueckert
Well, Star Command 2 made it's funding goal, so looks like I'm shelling out for that pledge.
One issue I have right now is I feel, possibly wrongly, that the desire to keep some, any close reason around for unliked lore questions will keep us from fixing our current broken close reason, which is "It does not have an in-canon answer". I don't like the idea of "It's broken, but it gives us a reason to close, so let's leave it"
I don't think anyone is on that position at the moment.
(Also we were so close to being done with this discussion for this segment of the day argh)
The pro-lore folk want a better close reason that's more usable. The anti-lore folk also want a better close reason. Neither side, as far as I've seen, is happy with the current broken close reason.
I would like the anti-lore people to come up with an argument for a lore question that isn't already covered by one of our other close reasons
I don't like this solution at all. Removing what little control we have with lore is not at all ideal. — fbueckert 21 hours ago
That's what raised my concern.
@StrixVaria Star Command's the one.
20:12
@kalina No, build order is a very good strategy question.
The tag should just be burninated.
I'm fine with burning the tag
but it contains questions like these:
5
Q: How long will this strategy work? (TZ 2v2 marauder+cs/speedling push against PP, TP shared base)

StephanieMy 2v2 partner and I are Terran/Zerg and in high bronze, working on our fundamentals to get into silver/gold. When playing a walled off (shared base) Protoss and Protoss or Protoss and Terran we've started developing a push of 5-10 marauders with concussive shells and 20 or so speedlings. We go i...

and that shouts "OPINION" to me
@Blem Sorry
@kalina This isn't bad because it's asking about a build order.
It's still bad, though.
@StrixVaria It's not the only one
20:13
@StrixVaria have you been writing?
@MichaelDunfield you shouldnt be, no one stared it so i guess no one cared until you came!
@spugsley I have been distracted by new job stuff and wedding stuff. I did put up a new chapter last night, though.
@spugsley How about you?
@kalina Stop looking for things to close. :)
@StrixVaria Oh nice! I've given up for now. Though I have been reading. Found a great book
@spugsley You need to un-give-up.
That's not allowed.
20:14
@Sterno oh I'm' not, another sc2-build-crap question popped up in the close queue
> You are now one out of 46,288 eligible beta candidates.
@StrixVaria It just makes me feel horrible about myself lol.
@spugsley CC @AshleyNunn
NO STOP DON'T YOU DO THAT
@spugsley CC @OrigamiRobot
@spugsley But it's good...
20:15
@spugsley Write some Dolan fanfic to restore your creative juices.
@StrixVaria I think it has it's moments but as soon as I start reading something I just feel really horrible about it and just give up
@badp I need to play a game with controler :/
@spugsley Well stop doing that and just write more instead.
@spugsley No giving up! I will Dolan the shit out of you if you give up.
3
@spugsley What are you reading?
20:19
@StrixVaria The Immortal Prince by Jennifer Fallon. She's fucking talented. I'm a few chapters in and I can't believe I haven't read her before now
Never heard of it.
I haven't read something I've enjoyed in a while, unfortunately.
Brandon Sanderson has ruined other books for me.
@StrixVaria Yeah. He's such a good author.
@StrixVaria have you read Codex Alera by Jim Butcher? That whole series is some of the best fantasy I've ever read
@spugsley It's in the queue.
@spugsley Stop this madness.
20:22
I might not finish the Discworld book I started.
@StrixVaria and what's unbelievable is that it's good all the way through. No one books stands out as "the weak link" and there's like six books in the series
@spugsley I like his Dresden Files stuff.
@StrixVaria never read it. Though I'm not big on present day fantasy stuff
My old plan was to alternate Dresden Files books with Wheel of Time books but then I decided that I hate Wheel of Time.
@StrixVaria Why?
20:24
@Arperum Because it's BORING.
And every character is insufferable.
I gave it at least 2 strikes.
Three if you count the time I tried to start reading it 10 years ago.
@spugsley I find the last book to be significantly weaker than the earlier ones, the whole series is still pretty good though
I'll start on Codex Alera soon-ish then.
I am looking forward to reading something I don't hate for a change.
@StrixVaria You should revoke @spugsley access to your writing unless she is also writing.
@OrigamiRobot But I like her feedback.
@MadScientist I liked the last book :( I mean, things happened really fast but it was tied up so nicely. I can see how you might think that though
@OrigamiRobot nah. That isn't beneficial to @StrixVaria at all and he's being a good writer
20:30
@spugsley The point is to motivate you.
@OrigamiRobot believe me that won't help
@spugsley That's cause you got a bad case of Dumb Brain Junk.
@OrigamiRobot no. I just really am not enjoying it right now. And it just makes me mad
@spugsley All symptoms of Dumb Brain Junk. I made it up so I know how it works.
@fbueckert You see my last question from last night?
20:33
@spugsley I get the same way over musical ideas at times, don't force yourself into it if you're not in a creative mood
@RavenDreamer Eh? The one about feeding your pets?
@RavenDreamer Monsters will spawn in normal dungeons and the like but not fixed map places generally.
@spugsley I disagree with @kalina. You need to learn to write all the time regardless of your mood.
Usually out of your sight range, but only if you're actually on that floor. I've not noticed spawns if I'm not on the floor to greet them.
well there's a surprise
20:36
I'll also throw my hand in the lot for "Don't force yourself to write if you aren't in the capable mood for it".
@StrixVaria I know but it's hard :(
(which I know you know)
I love to pesky my friends to write more all the time but I also tell them not to do it if they're just not feeling it.
I just noticed that there's a new Sanderson book available tomorrow
@StrixVaria I think it depends on the person. I don't write, but I definitely don't force myself to do what few creative things I like to do.
user15026
@MadScientist Not if you are in Canada, I think I still get to wait
20:37
@MadScientist Eh? Which one?
@AshleyNunn It looks like it's available in the US already, and tomorrow in Germany
If I try to force myself, I just start to hate it and it further demotivates me.
@fbueckert Steelheart
@OrigamiRobot It depends on why you're writing. If you're writing as a hobby and whenever it's done, it's done, then don't force yourself. If you want to be a writer, then you have to write no matter what.
@OrigamiRobot It's so easy to make you hate things!
20:37
He is a robot programmed to hate.
user15026
@MadScientist Yeah, it is in the US.
@badp It's just as easy to make me love things.
I burnt out very bad on writing once, in trying to force myself to stick to it.
I should try to figure out to get Amazon to notify me of new books by certain authors. Though all the different kind of editions and new re-releases probably make this nearly impossible
user15026
I just research like a rabid thing
20:39
@MadScientist doesn't Amazon try to spam you with that already anyway?
@StrixVaria If you want to make a living being a writer, you have to write no matter what.
user15026
like new Tamora Pierce next week, new Sanderson, new Scott Lynch on the 8th, also new Mercedes Lackey (either the 1st or the 8th I cant remember)
@OrigamiRobot Maybe a professional writer is just in the mood more than the average person.
@badp What?
Well, Sanderson is the only one on my "buy whatever he publishes" list right now
20:41
@AshleyNunn I noticed a new book from Mercedes in the bookstore on Monday. In the Elemental Masters series.
Not tunnel visioning on one thing is important too.
user15026
@fbueckert Ah, I dont read those - this is a colleguim chronicles one
@AshleyNunn Ooh! I'm going to need to pick that one up, then.
user15026
@fbueckert me too :D
@GraceNote @fbueckert I am in the Yeek nest, wondering if I can kill all of the master yeeks on the floor (to prevent summon yeek spam)
20:42
Little Racers: Street is on the IndieGameStand store.
Awesome!
@RavenDreamer You need to kill the Yeek to stop him from summoning Master Yeeks.
Last time I tried to work on my Xbox, everything went horribly wrong and it just made me sad.
You took the quest, I assume, yes?
@OrigamiRobot Oh no. =[
Evening
20:44
@MadScientist Have you read his new one yet?
@Coronus The latest I read was the Rithmatist
At least, I think he summons other yeeks too? It's been some time and to my luck my party kinda one-shot the guy before I even saw him.
But, egads, the memories of trying to push through the hordes and hordes of yeeks with my first character...
@MadScientist Oh, it looks like it came out yesterday. Steelheart
@Coronus Tomorrow in Germany, so I can't buy it yet
speed warp .net? this isnt another one of those cookie clicker type things is it?
No! What have i done! I visited the site!
20:46
@RhysW More like candy box; so worse. You can thank @fredley.
i guess his stars are his kill count so ill throw mine on there too
And WTF are the german publishers smoking? If I would have wanted to buy The Way of Kings in german it would be 18 EUR for the Kindle version and 22 EUR for the hardcover, while the english version is just 6 EUR

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