The Bridge

But obvious ones? C'mon.

user15026

@Frank Game ID confuses people because we go "you need an artifact" and people go "but if I had that why would I ask"

user15026

And I get how you get there.

@Ash No, we go, "We don't do it from memory. Don't ask us to."

user15026

You might, not everyone does!

11:01 PM

Comments on it afterwards do that, though, and that confuses everything.

user15026

And this isn't about individual people, or individual sites even

user15026

it's about the fact that SO/SE has a BIG image problem for some incredibly valid reasons

I'm just saying; there's a sense of personal responsibility that has to come into play, and I despise the handholding we're supposed to do.

if "read the rules dammit" is not helpful and people feel like this is unwelcoming, then perhaps we should not blame the users and look at ourselves. If we can be more welcoming and more understanding towards new users and help them learn rules through experience (or even just guide them to read the rules), then hopefully that situation may be improved. I think that this is what SE is going for, and I don't have a problem with it.

user15026

@Frank Then don't do it, but don't be shocked when you get pushback.

11:02 PM

@Ave For one user? Sure, no problem.

user15026

Sure, we have reams of rules, but that's kinda overwhelming to start.

For a thousand users? Screw that noise.

we're not a site for "the people who know stuff"

at least in my pov

@Ave Obviously we are, or people wouldn't be asking.

we're a site that aims to encourage people to ask stuff, learn stuff. And occasionally if they know the answer, post an answer so others can learn.

11:04 PM

But, whatever. I've registered by discontent with the general new user idiocy going on, and I'm going to be actively ignoring or disabling all of it.

@Ave If we take out new users from this cycle, we don't get new users (which may one day be high rep, Big Stack People. we all started at 1 rep) and we don't get a lot of new questions.

I could probably go through your post history and find a big or small rule violation on an early post by you. This isn't limited to you, btw, it applies to pretty much everyone.

I believe in optimizing for pearls, not sand

@Frank i believe in optimizing to reduce toxicity

@Ave Yes, and I'm not saying we jump down anyone's throat.

But part of joining a new site is trying to learn the rules before you even post.

You won't get it perfect; nobody expects you to. We can gently guide users to the things they missed; that's just basic decency for anyone.

Memor-X

@Ash i suppose that makes sense though i don't like how we have to be told about answers because if the tone of an answer is condescending i'm sure the community would get that fixed and not sure how we take care when asking for clarification

11:10 PM

@Frank this feature is exactly that tho

user15026

@Frank This feature just wants to help with that, to help point out the people who need that help!

it is a "hey, be nice to the new users" thing

@Frank (most) people don't read.

@Ave That's their problem.

@GodEmperorDune To a degree, yes.

user15026

@Frank Seriously?

11:11 PM

@Ave people learn different ways

user15026

Like do you realize how scattered our rules are>

some people learn by reading rules and FAQs

But it's so much more than that; it's literally asking us to treat new users specially.

user15026

And how much there is to read and understnad>

others learn by watching

11:11 PM

@Ash Yes, seriously.

others learn by doing and getting corrected

@Ash I keep saying I don't expect perfection.

I expect a modicum of effort, like reading the help center.

Or taking the freaking tour.

@Frank except apparently you do

@Frank Surely not the whole help center. There are dozens of articles there. I don't think I've even read them all

@murgatroid99 Okay, that's a good point.

11:13 PM

@murgatroid99 help center is like reading a reference manual

I was thinking of the, "What topics can I ask about here?" page.

its great if you have a question going in but useless as a thing to sit and read through

That's the same stuff as in the tour, I think.

I don't think looking over one page is too much to ask.

It's a super basic overview, and gives a good idea of what we can ask, and just as importantly, not ask.

this reminds me

@Frank The tour is pretty generic. It doesn't mention stuff like modded Minecraft crashes or ITG questions

11:15 PM

I should read transpeak's rules. I literally scrolled through them to find the "I read this code" when I registered.

@murgatroid99 ITG is in there.

Modded Minecraft isn't, and is definitely one of those edge cases, yes. I don't blame people for asking those.

i just don't get why "be nice to new users" always seems to chafe your soul @Frank

@Frank I actually just glossed over it. But it does just say not to ask them at all

(in my defense I was told that a friend was talking about sui there, which is why I was rushing)

@murgatroid99 Because most would be off-topic. Chances are great that it won't be allowed, likely.

@GodEmperorDune Why are we supposed to be extra nice to new users? Why can't we just be nice to everybody?

11:17 PM

@Memor-X this is similar to what Github does now, and I love it

What is it about new users that entitles them to special treatment?

@Frank If we were nice enough to everybody there wouldn't be a problem at all

@Frank I'm not sure how to reply to this other than "new users should be treated special -- yeah, so?"

user15026

@Frank they're NEW

user15026

and they don't know all the little bits

11:18 PM

and they're also how you keep a site alive

@Ash And we don't expect ourselves to know all the little bits!

user15026

Also, the don't ask goes "Questions that need improvement may be closed until someone fixes them."

especially stackoverflow

@Frank You'd be surprised! Most people on here do!

user15026

So like....it doesn't even sound like you can't permanently not ask about the things we don't allow!

I don't see where I'm making the statement where I want perfection straight out of the gate.

11:19 PM

Not, Arqade specifically, but

@Frank i mean i'm usually on best behavior when i meet someone for the first time, i figured that's kind of the normal human thing to do

user15026

@Frank You seem to expect a lot out of new users though

@Ash If reading a page of basic rules is a high expectation, then I guess I do.

user15026

And you don't seem to be willing to understand that mistakes will happen

user15026

And people will misread/misunderstand things

11:20 PM

@Frank I wish there was such a page

So much of what makes a site is scattered across its meta

user15026

I'd not call the tour even that tbh

Or, even worse, mother meta

You're missing my point; there's nothing I'm saying that doesn't apply to everybody.

Perhaps I have a unique perspective because PPCG is like rule hell

There are mods there who don't know all the rules

user15026

@Frank Yes, but new users need the time to figure it out

11:20 PM

It's approaching legal system levels

user15026

How would you solve this, then? How would you teach people?

Where does time come into this? I'm confused about that.

@Ash Exactly as we are, without the stupid new user banner.

Q: Minecraft xbox 360 freezes system at 'loading spawn area'

We honestly considered "freezing" PPCG Meta for a while, so that no new rules could be made

because no one knew how the current ruleset even worked

there's probably things in it that contradict each other

user15026

@Frank That's not even helpful

user15026

How is this banner bad

Lazers 2.0

11:22 PM

0

I need some help with my issue, as I've tried searching the internet for answers and have tried a few things. I had done an update just before it started doing this. So, I tried deleting the title update. The next time I started the game, it asked to do the update or play in offline mode. I did n...

user15026

how is it making our jobs harder?

user15026

How does it change anything we do?

25 mins ago, by Frank

Which won't actually do anything but make people ignore new users.

user15026

I am like great, this makes it easier for me to quickly ID when I have to make sure I extra have my customer service face on

user15026

The one that teaches 92 year olds how to internet

11:22 PM

@Frank The people who are going to be mean about this already were going to have their eyes glaze over when they saw "1 rep"

user15026

wait

user15026

Maybe that's the difference

This is not what these are for

Nothing we do here is for those people, honestly, because those people aren't going to listen

user15026

Maybe it's because I have worked customer service forever

I'm freaking volunteering here. We're all freaking volunteering. I don't want to do customer service. I want to talk games with others that know them, not have to handhold somebody because they ignored the sign at the door.

user15026

11:23 PM

so like this kinda "find new person, break thing down with utmost patience and repetition" is my bread and butter

user15026

@Frank If you wanna talk games with people, chill in here

user15026

That's not what main's for

user15026

Main's for helping people

user15026

you don't wanna help? Don't help!

@Ash No, main's for building a repository.

I had an apt analogy as another comment. Lemme link it.

user15026

11:24 PM

Wroooooooong

user15026

wrong

If it was we wouldn't allow anything other than self-answers

user15026

wrooongedy wrong

This is not SO Docs

@TimPost Incidentally, that's a pretty apt analogy; I volunteer at a dance studio, and we have a big honkin' sign that says no outside shoes on the dance floor. And people still miss or ignore it, so we have to repeat ourselves many times. And you know what they do? They apologize and take off their shoes. There's something about being on the internet where that process just doesn't work; we get more hostility than we do co-operation. I know I'd snap way more if most of the new people ignored or insulted me for enforcing that rule. — fbueckert Aug 17 at 16:47

11:24 PM

@Ash i think it's more that some people are getting stuck with all the emotional labor, finally the site puts a reminder to say "maybe spend some emotional labor on this new guy" and the people who are unused to spending emotional labor are like "WHAT IS THIS TIRING THING"

user15026

@GodEmperorDune Meanwhile I'm like alright, okay, new way to know this will take n+1 spoon

"SPEND MY HARD EARNED SPOONS? ON A NEW USER? WELL I NEVER"

My expectations with the site are different than yours. I have no issues with anybody wanting to help users.

user15026

So I can go "alright, I can spend n+1 spoon right now, cool" or I can go "oh shoot I only have n spoons"

user15026

@Frank Fine, but maybe....you're in the minority then with how you view things.

11:26 PM

I have very large issues with people expecting me to treat users differently, whether they're new or not.

like emotional labor is just that labor, it's tiring no matter who does it, the fair way to do this thing is not to dump it all on one group of people and spread it out across all users

user15026

And maybe, you have to like...step back and realize that we're trying to share the cooklies

@Ash If the downvotes on the announcement are any indicator, I'm nowhere near the minority.

@Frank i think you gotta introspect on that tbh

@Frank a lot of toxic techbros yelling at once doesn't make them right

the concept of treating someone who is new to something is pretty simple to me

user15026

11:26 PM

@Frank people wanna be assholes, people hate change, people hate the idea that their view of niceness and civility isn't everyone's

user15026

We aren't perfect

@Frank Gonna have to stop you there, Mother Meta is a giant SO echo chamber

Votes are meaningless there

Nice how you're just dismissing a countervailing viewpoint.

But I think we've reached the limits of constructive discussion on this.

If you want to get a good sense for how the network feels about it, I would ask around in chat

user15026

@quartata For some reason the phrase Mother Meta just amuses me

11:27 PM

@Frank your viewpoint seems to be "i don't want to be nice, stop reminding me to do that"

user15026

like it makes sense, but it is making very fun head pictures

@Ash speaking words of drama, let it beeeeeeeeeeeeee

I'm saying that to get a sense of what the deal is here, you gotta dig deeper than just a biased strawpoll

Yuuki

@GodEmperorDune Given what the spoons metaphor is used for, I feel this is incredibly inappropriate.

@GodEmperorDune No, my viewpoint is, "New users are users. Everybody gets treated the same."

user15026

11:28 PM

@GodEmperorDune nice, nice nice

At no point anywhere in here have I advocated for being rude to new users.

user15026

@Yuuki everyone has spoons!

user15026

Just more abled humans have more spoons!

@Frank have you ever seen the baseball game with the fence illustration?

All I'm saying, all I've ever said, is, "I don't like giving special treatment to any class of users"

user15026

11:29 PM

@quartata equality is not equity! :)

Yuuki

@Ash Yes and this is criticizing someone for how they choose to use their spoons.

If I want to do that, I'll do it somewhere I enjoy helping new users.

here it is

@Ash yeah, that one

@Yuuki spoons are a currency that some people have a very limited amount and others have an effectively limitless amount, both groups spend but some have to be more judicious in how they spend

11:29 PM

ok where did the spoons come from

@Frank For most sites, the biggest source of questions is from new users. Arqade is a bit different here because of its scope

user15026

@Yuuki not all spoon use is the same, like if I choose to use my spoons to light people on fire, people'd be right to go "hey Ash, maybe not so many flamethrower spoons, neh?"

@quartata This is a good diagram, but the entire premise conflicts with what I believe SE to fundamentally be.

Spoon theory

The spoon theory is a disability metaphor and neologism used to explain the reduced amount of energy available for activities of living and productive tasks that may result from disability or chronic illness. "Spoons" are a visual representation used as a unit of measure in order to quantify how much energy a person has throughout a given day. Each activity requires a given number of spoons, which will only be replaced as the person "recharges" through rest. A person who runs out of spoons has no choice but to rest until their spoons are replenished. This metaphor is used to describe the planning...

user15026

@Frank Maybe that's the problem

@GodEmperorDune ohhh right I forgot about that

11:30 PM

It's not about the users. It's all about the content. Full stop.

@Frank This sentence is literally, 100%, why SO Docs failed

@Frank humans should be more important than data

user15026

@Frank Without users you have no content!

@Ash Without content, you have no users!

@Frank false, you just don't have a site

11:31 PM

We tried having it be all about the content. Just an aggregator for content.

user15026

Yeah, but if you have content and then you're an asshole, you won't have users either

@GodEmperorDune Not on SE. That's just asking for anarchy.

That was SO Docs.

Nobody liked it

user15026

you'll just have your lovely echo chamber

user15026

@quartata It was sad

11:31 PM

@Frank be careful with how you use anarchy here

@Ash Why is there nothing in between, "Mushy welcoming sickening niceness", and, "raging alcoholic tantruming asshole"?

because I don't think it makes the point you want

Why can't there be a balance, where we try to work together to make the best of both of them?

False dilemma

A false dilemma is a type of informal fallacy in which something is falsely claimed to be an "either/or" situation, when in fact there is at least one additional option.A false dilemma can arise intentionally, when a fallacy is used in an attempt to force a choice or outcome. The opposite of this fallacy is false compromise. The false dilemma fallacy can also arise simply by accidental omission of additional options rather than by deliberate deception. For example, "Stacey spoke out against capitalism, therefore she must be a communist" (she may be neither capitalist nor communist). "Roger opposed...

@Frank there is, it's the feature you're so mad about

SE is not holding a gun to your head to be nice

11:33 PM

@GodEmperorDune No, it's one more step where quality takes a hit.

they're making a little banner

@Frank logged out users can't even see it???

I don't know where that comes from

user15026

@Frank how?

user15026

How does this change our standards

Think this might be a different definition of "quality"

11:34 PM

@Ash This entire welcoming debacle just moves the balance towards the user end of the scale.

And I'm, quite honestly, super tired of it.

@Frank you have this weird assumption where in order to have quality you have to be a jerk and i don't see how those two are related

@Frank I don't know why you think these things are separate.

I feel like I'm missing something here

user15026

@Frank Right, so more people can learn how to contribute good content

user15026

Like I fail to see how we don't win here

Yuuki

@Ash There's a difference between "maybe you're using your spoons inappropriately" and what @GodEmperorDune said.

user15026

11:38 PM

I think I might be missing something there - it felt like to me, a hyperbolic sort of "you can't make me be nice"

user15026

So my apologies, I might be viewing the statement through a different lens, so I don't see it the same

You're a volunteer. You get to choose what you help with. You can ignore new users' posts, old users' posts, all posts, no posts etc etc. Don't like new users? don't help them. simple as that. but don't try to make it harder for others to help them.

5

@Ave this is a great way of phrasing it, thank you

user15026

@Ave Yes! This x1000, thank you for that wording :)

(gdi bridge I got shy)

Kevin van der Velden

11:42 PM

(awww, but they're right though!)

@Ave notice me @badpaiiiiiiiiiiii

seriously fam this is a wonderful wording

@GodEmperorDune bwahahahaha

user15026

@GodEmperorDune literal out loud snortlaugh

@Ash My experience of shovelling the junk here shows the vast majority of new users won't contribute good content, and that only a few of them even make an effort.

user15026

@Frank I'm sorry you think so lowly of them.

11:45 PM

@Ave I fail to see how disliking a banner makes it harder for others to help new users.

user15026

Not everyone is going to be a magic sparklepony with piles of rep

@Frank People say this a lot, but even in SO Triage (which is hell) I've never seen things like this

user15026

But that doesn't mean we should close the door

@Ash And at no point have I said I want to cut off new users.

Nor have them be perfect instantly.

user15026

And I don't think the shovelling is nearly as bad as most people think, it feels like a lot of confirmation bias

11:46 PM

There may be language barriers, people may not know what they're doing, but it's very rare that it's completely and utterly unsalvageable, not even worth a second of attention -- and even rarer that new users with a legitimate question are rude without provocation

user15026

@Frank what do you want? the status quo? the status quo SUCKS

@Frank you're free to dislike it, but please don't fight against it.

user15026

And I say that as someone who has piles of rep, has moderated a number of sites, and all of that

user15026

our new user experience is really not great.

There's somewhere between, "all new users are crap and don't deserve to be here", and "all new users are special snowflakes and have to be welcomed with open arms and tea and crumpets"

user15026

11:47 PM

@Frank no one is saying the latter

Special snowflakes? Really?

user15026

please stop making these hyperbolic statements

user15026

Also, snowflakes, really?

@Ash Sure. That's kinda my point.

Yeah. Like.

Come on.

11:48 PM

You're doing the same for the opposite side.

user15026

Nope

user15026

I'm not saying that at all

user15026

I'm not saying everyone's an asshole

user15026

I'm saying "hey maybe we just gotta remember compassion sometimes because it's easy to forget"

And neither am I. You're positioning me as a grumpy old fart who just wants all the new users to get off mah lawn.

Which is nowhere near what I'm saying, so it's somewhat irksome to have my position so strawmanned.

11:50 PM

It's tough when you say things like this:

24 mins ago, by Frank

I have very large issues with people expecting me to treat users differently, whether they're new or not.

user15026

sigh Every time this comes up, you go "why do we have to treat new users special" and we go "because they're obviously having issues learning, so we are trying to make it better" and it feels like you go "well I learned and I survived so they have to go through the same gaunlet"

Sorry. It's true. It makes it tough.

You did say that you value content over users, and that you will ignore new users.

Q: Can I install Bukkit on a Technic Pack server?

Ignore the new user banner.

I expect us to treat us all the same.

Which is with common decency and respect.

Lazers 2.0

0

I want to add Factions to the server I am hosting, but the .jar provided is only a vanilla server for the 1.7.1.0 Pack. Is it possible to add Bukkit (and Factions) to the server without messing with the rest of the modpack? If so, how would I do that?

minecraft minecraft-server minecraft-technic-pack

11:52 PM

And that if someone doesn't read through all of the Great Encyclometa of Stack Exchange, it's their problem.

22 mins ago, by quartata

user15026

@Frank we don't do that though

How is that such a controversial position, and how did it morph into, "Perfection only!"?

user15026

And yeah, equality is not equity!

user15026

Treating everyone the same ignores the fact that we're not all the same

11:52 PM

@Ave you are full of good wordplay fam

user15026

Also, the same as what?

32 mins ago, by quartata

Perhaps I have a unique perspective because PPCG is like rule hell

32 mins ago, by quartata

There are mods there who don't know all the rules

user15026

@Ave Petition to rename MSE "The Great Encyclometa of Stack Exchange"

@Ash what do we call the site metas

Nope. We're not going to agree here. I don't care who the person is that's posting the content.

user15026

11:54 PM

Alright, but do understand that then you might run into some issues due to that stance.

I subscribe to Jeff's motto, signal over noise. Junk is junk, and needs to be deleted.

user15026

@Frank This is not Jeff's playground anymore

@Ash I'd sign that petition.

And you're stretching even what he said

SE inherently cares about who posts what

user15026

and tbh some of the reason we are here with the issues we have are because of how he set this up

11:55 PM

That's what privileges are

@Ash Yeah, I'm... not a huge fan

@Ash 100% this

user15026

@quartata yeah, it's a gross oversimplification

@Ash and 100000000% this

He's said some dumb shit in recent times in particular

user15026

@quartata Indeed.

11:55 PM

jeff and joel are not gods

~~shog, on the other hand,,~~

All I see is SE moving itself into a dumpster fire because users are now more important than quality, and I disagree fundamentally with that entire stance.

joel's blog for a long time was full of 10x and other toxic brogrammer bullshit

So, yeah, I will run into issues. I get it. But I'm far from the only one that has that viewpoint.

user15026

@Frank That doesn't make it correct, or okay.

11:56 PM

Have you been onto StackOverflow in the past couple years? That place already is on fire and it's certainly not because of these brand-new policies

@Ash Neither does your stance make it okay.

user15026

I'm not saying everything the "other side" from where you are is correct or okay either

@Frank the thing i think we forget sometimes is that users are PEOPLE and deserve to be treated as such

user15026

SE is making a fundamental shift in paradigm

user15026

for some very important reasons

user15026

11:57 PM

and it's not going to please everyone.

Unionhawk

Honestly if you're uninterested in helping people then why are you even on a question and answer website

Legitimately

That's the entire thing

@Unionhawk High quality content.

user15026

we're beyond cheese moving, this is like moving the entire dairy case

The whole reason I joined SE in the first place.

user15026

@Frank what for?

user15026

11:58 PM

Who for?

To help everybody after the asker.

To help more than just one person.

TIL @Frank is basically IRL braniac

all about dat knowledge

user15026

@GodEmperorDune I do not understand this reference

So if something can't help more than one person, you'd rather not help that one person, even if it's not going to hurt anyone else

user15026

Maybe that's the problem, I starfish and teaspoon first

11:58 PM

I don't really care who posted the original content. All I care about is it's future utility.

I disagree fundamentally with the notion that this kind of content can only help one person, but

@Frank This isn't Wikipedia

@quartata There used to be a close reason for exactly that reason, actually.

I feel like I'm talking myself hoarse here about how SO Docs was this and it sucked

user15026

@Frank Notice it's gone, though?