The Bridge

Arda Xi

00:00

:107117 Well, a good start would be something similar to what it is right now (sans the really big images) but in one big answer instead of spread out

Grace Note

I mean long term, @Arda

tzenes

@Grace I think the megaman answer was a good example of how it could be, I just think that game-rec requires so little expertise

Arda Xi

Well, other questions should learn by example

Grace Note

@tzenes My issue is that any of our repositories are probably going to be horrible in comparison to a real repository site

Arda Xi

:107123 Of course, but the game-rec questions are already worse than a real repository site, we don't exactly have anything to lose

Grace Note

00:02

@Arda I don't see it improving, either.

We're going to go through with the test.

Arda Xi

I'd say, don't draw any preliminary conclusions, there's enough time for doom-thinking after testing :)

Grace Note

I already wrote a post on Meta on how poor our support is and why it won't grow. It's a bit too late to not draw conclusions.

Arda Xi

I'm just saying that since it hasn't been tried yet we don't have much to go on

antony.trupe

@tzenes pics

tzenes

:107128 link

Grace Note

00:07

3

A: What level of exclusion is healthy for the site at this point?

I drafted a very unguided response to this on the chat, so here's a more constructed version of what I spoke of there. I don't believe anyone, not even those of us who oppose game recs and the like, are intending to be elitist, and I certainly hope the site doesn't appear or aspire to be such. ...

tzenes

@antonytrupe its on top of your other workshop

antony.trupe

I don't think so, it wouldn't let me place it if it was, right?

tzenes

it looks like it is from the picture

Arda Xi

it seems on top though

antony.trupe

I get a 3x3 grid of green X's when placing it

tzenes

00:09

well, have you tried removing it and dumping the stones?

antony.trupe

yeah, they appear to refuse to move it

Arda Xi

@antonytrupe really? isn't the top-left corner the bottom-right corner of that other workshop?

antony.trupe

I put a garbage zone right next to it

in the bottom pic, the X is in the middle of the workshop that won't get built

Arda Xi

oh, it looked like it was the X in the top one

antony.trupe

the other workshops are smelters, not metalsmiths' forges

yeah, sorry, should have been consistant with the cursor location

Arda Xi

00:12

and there's nothing in the announcements other than the construction was stopped?

antony.trupe

yep

Arda Xi

the only think I can think of.. do you have a spare anvil?

antony.trupe

I have two, its a reclaimed site

Arda Xi

and they're not forbidden?

antony.trupe

the materials are freed up when I cancel the construction anyway

they are not forbidden, correct

Arda Xi

00:14

then I really don't know

antony.trupe

oh wait! someone got a dump item job!

Arda Xi

your dorfs were just too busy?

antony.trupe

I had a half dozen idling for weeks

what the!

he grabed a stone from the tile

and there's one still there!

Arda Xi

with refuse hauling labour?

might be a bug

antony.trupe

all but two dwarves have all hauling enabled

tzenes

00:17

Hey, the day ticked over

time to close game-rec again

12

Q: What games let me do Parkour?

I saw a special on TV about Parkour - crazy street running and jumping. Are there any video games that let me do this?

This one reeks of LMGTFY

10

Q: What games like Master of Orion there are? Are there any remakes?

One of my all time favorites is Master of Orion. What similar games are available in space/4X genre that work on modern machines? I would be most interested in direct remakes/clones. I liked very much about its simplicity and game play length, for example I found Master of Orion 2 a bit too com...

game-rec turn-based-strategy remake master-of-orion

This one too:

6

Q: Is there a newer version of Transport Tycoon Deluxe?

I loved TTD, is there a newer transport simulation game I could play?

game-rec simulation transport-simulation transport-tycoon-deluxe

Arda Xi

:107190 It only has one answer :)

tzenes

which if he's googled it he'd know

Arda Xi

He's 1/3rd of our mod team :)

nah, I think this question is legit

it hasn't attracted any confrontation and argument since July 8th

tzenes

7

Q: Are there adventure games suitable for senior citizen?

Which adventure games don’t require quick responses (at any point) and so could be completed by a senior citizen, without the pressure of time?

game-rec adventure console-agnostic interactive-fiction

@Arda every game-rec must die

Grace Note

:107201 That's because it was asked back when we didn't care about game-rec, and it got its answer

Arda Xi

00:22

true

Grace Note

Oh, hey, setting it to reply to a message auto-adds @namae

tzenes

yeah

Mana

This is late since I was out taking a walk, but I noticed that someone asked why we can't keep a few subjective questions around and close the rest

tzenes

no, all game-rec must die

Mana

I agree.

Grace Note

00:25

I liked your lawn message, @Mana

I saw it on the star board the other day. It made me chuckle

Mana

Thanks.

:)

The main problem with keeping any game-rec open at all is that there will always be people asking what makes their closed question so different from some open game-rec question.

Grace Note

It wouldn't be as bad if we had some measure or scope to use in response to that inquiry, @Mana

But I haven't been able to convince the pro-rec people to devise a meaningful measure.

Mana

8

Q: Roguelike for Android?

Are there any roguelike games available for the Android OS?

game-rec roguelikes android

What bothers me about this question being closed is that there actually is an objective answer.

A simple Yes, without any games attached, answers it.

tzenes

00:54

what bothers me is this question:

7

Q: Are there adventure games suitable for senior citizen?

Which adventure games don’t require quick responses (at any point) and so could be completed by a senior citizen, without the pressure of time?

game-rec adventure console-agnostic interactive-fiction

Mana

Why's that?

tzenes

because there are about 8 billion answers to it

Mana

True.

tzenes

but people keep it because he's trying to help a senior citizen

Mana

oh

Yeah, I see.

tzenes

00:56

same with this one:

7

Q: Games like Age of Mythology?

My 8-year-old loves to play Age of Mythology. I'd like to find a similar, more modern game for him. We've seen the Age of Empires series, but the violence is more graphic. I want something less violent. Ideally something on Steam, so I don't have to keep track of the CD and the keys.

game-rec real-time-strategy games non-violent

he just wants a game for his 8 year old

Mana

yeah...I know.

In that case, there should be some kind of site we redirect people to for game-rec questions.

tzenes

there isn't, which is part of the issue

if there was this problem would be trivial

but writing a good game-rec site is hard

Mana

that's true, actually

TomWij

tzenes: Maybe, maybe not, it would be like Jinni.com but then for games.

Grace Note

Simply too many variables in people's needs. A good rec site would need to be fluid.

tzenes

00:59

@TomWij go tell netflix that finding recommendations is easy

they're offering up large cash prizes to people who can do it better

better yet, tell google

that's their entire business model

take user data and make good recommendations (advertisements)

antony.trupe

hunch.com

Grace Note

Hm...

antony.trupe

clever site

tzenes

@GraceNote you changed your Avatar?

TomWij

@tzenes: Why would I, Jinni and Hunch are great examples.

tzenes

01:02

@TomWij well then I look forward to my Jinni and Hunch ads

and my Jinni and Hunch search engine

Grace Note

Because Okuu is the greatest, @tzenes

Plus, no one seems to recognize Suguri any better

TomWij

@tzenes: Those are search engines... :-S

Mana

Tzenes, you are a search engine.

man, I haven't played any Touhou games in a while

I should get back into those

Grace Note

Oh, good, the first soul I've come across in this entire site who has actually indicated having heard of the series

tzenes

:107283 I liked Suguri....

TomWij

01:04

There are lots more questions and movies than games, it would even work out better than it is already.

Grace Note

@tzenes Then ask some strategy questions on it so I can get more rep!

tzenes

haha

@TomWij recommendations are hard, its the Napoleon Dynamite problem

Grace Note

I wrote quite an in-depth weapon's analysis of it

tzenes

there is no recommendation engine in the world that can accurately predict if you'll like Napolean Dynamite

Grace Note

Although, did the translation come out yet?

tzenes

01:05

@Grace I dont' know I'm using a hack version...

Grace Note

According to my friend, who knows the folk in charge of the translation, a new patch is expected for the release of the translation

TomWij

@tzenes: Sure, because there is no recommendation site for games. ^^

Grace Note

You should buy a real version! It's pretty cheap, I got mine for maybe 12.99 US

Mana

If I had to ask a question on Touhou, it would probably be "How the heck do I play Immaterial and Missing Power?"

because I seriously have no idea how

I just kind of move around and mash buttons and pretty colors happen

Grace Note

You should totally drop that and play jQ^H^H Hisoutensoku

TomWij

01:08

@tzenes: How come that Jinni and Hunch work for me then? It would work for games too...

tzenes

@TomWij anecdotal evidence

Grace Note

Works for you being the key point, @Tom

I can tell you anything that can't pass the Mushroom Test is incapable of giving me a good recommendation

tzenes

@TomWij whimsley.typepad.com/whimsley/2009/10/…

I should probably go home

I"m the only guy still at my job

Mana

woah wait what

You're doing all this stuff at your job?!

Grace Note

I do most of my stuff while my code compiles

tzenes

01:14

Me too

or while I'm waiting for our deployment system

Mana

I do all my coding on my netbook by my side while all chats run on my large monitor

TomWij

@tzenes: What does the amount of users rating on a movie (and it's error) has to do with a good recommedation? Nothing. Really, nothing...

Mana

Is it considered impolite to edit the above question to be more coherent?

eh, I guess I'll leave it be. I feel awkward touching other people's sentences.

tzenes

:107324 did you read the article?

It was all about making good recommendations and why Netflix was failing

@Mana nah, go a head

you can ask first if you want to be polite

but a lot of times its just a language barrier

as in this case

alright, I'm heading home, be back in 20

Mana

peace bro

Grace Note

01:19

Later, @tzenes

TomWij

What's so unpredictable about Napolean Dynamite anyway?

My Match with it is Great.

Grace Note

Have you seen it?

Mana

Napolean Dynamite is a very strange movie, and I felt as though it should have been one I absolutely despised. Yet I really enjoyed it.

TomWij

Trailer looks good.

@Mana: I went to Kick-Ass with the student club without watching any trailers whatsoever, it looked stupid the first minutes... Till the dry humor kicks in. ^^

Mana

Cool.

TomWij

01:34

:107327 Yes, and it has nothing to do with what I said...

If I recommend you a movie and I would think that you would like it, you might watch it and totally not like it. Same effect...

Grace Note

That's the point. There's nothing authoritative on it.

TomWij

If I see your history of 100 movies you have watched, I can more precisely recommend you a movie and the chance will be a lot smaller that you will dislike it.

tzenes

@TomWij no, you can't

that was what the article was about

you can't more precisely recommend it

there is a limit to how good you can get

and what's worse is that more information can be harmful

The problem is Single Variable Decomposition doesn't converge in this system

now they solved the anomaly by disregarding data (less data actually gave a better result), but they still couldn't break the 10% barrier

TomWij

Ofc there is a limit, but I will be good at that limit.

tzenes

no, you won't

Good means you can reliably make a recommendation which is accurate

the limit is too low for this to be the case

Aiden Bell

01:45

Hello!

tzenes

Hey Aiden

Grace Note

Hi, @Aiden

TomWij

@tzenes: Then why Jinni and Hunch show me otherwise?

tzenes

@TomWij anecdotal data

Let's say a system is only accurate 1% of the time

what are the odds that its right 3 times in a row?

1 in a million

1 in a million people will think the system works

now set that number at 10%

1 in a million will get 6 correct results

that doesn't mean the system is good

TomWij

But that doesn't match up with reality...

tzenes

01:52

it does when you start to introduce variation in the numbers

for example, let's say our system averages at 10% accuracy, but it fluctuated between 0% and 50% per person

TomWij

If the site doesn't tend to work out for 90%, why is there no negativity in the media on Jinni?

tzenes

What do you mean by negativity?

TomWij

Posts, Tweets, Articles that depict Jinni in a negative way.

tzenes

Because people who don't find it useful don't waste their time? Because it has a small user base?

Why would it have negative articles?

Netflix doesn't do a good job but there isn't any negative articles about its recommendation engine

are there any people left to close this:

4

Q: Is there any Civilization-like game for the Wii?

I'm a big fan of Civilization and I've got a Wii. I read that Civilization Revolution for Wii was cancelled. Is there any other turn-based-strategy game on the Wii?

game-rec wii turn-based-strategy

antony.trupe

I already voted

TomWij

02:03

The user base is big enough, and yes, there would be negativity on it but there isn't.

And people see this site as Jinni, not as Netflix.

C. Ross

needs one more

tzenes

@TomWij so your argument is that because people see the site as Jinni there would be negativity, where as if they saw the site as Netflix there wouldn't?

TomWij

:107396 Replace Netflix by Jinni there...

tzenes

huh?

let's try this again

You said, if its so bad why isn't there negativity

and I said, netflix is bad and there is no negativity about its recommendations

TomWij

You're talking about Netflix, it's not about Netflix, it's about Jinni.

tzenes

02:07

actually we're talking about people commenting on whether a recommendation engine is bad

TomWij

People publishing negativity, whether it's social/news, would talk about Jinni in that mather. Netflix can be in the title while Jinni must be in the title...

tzenes

why would they publish negativity? you seem to be making this large assumption that people would complain

they aren't complaining about amazon recommendations, they aren't complaining about netflix recommendations, they aren't complaining about google recommendations

TomWij

Because people do, haven't you noticed?

tzenes

they're not complaining about all these recommendation engines which admit they're bad

why would they complain about this one?

TomWij

People do complain about a movie being bad.

tzenes

02:10

a movie isn't a recommendation engine

TomWij

People do complain about a game being bad.

tzenes

also not a recommendation engine

TomWij

People do complain about Hardware/Software/... being bad.

tzenes

some hardware software

not all

no one complains about how their tcp layer is shit

TomWij

People do complain about search engines that are bad.

tzenes

02:11

people complain about some search engines that are bad

TomWij

People would also complain about a recommendation engine being bad.

tzenes

not all of them

TomWij

Why wouldn't they?

tzenes

well they don't complain about google

TomWij

Because the tcp layer isn't shit.

tzenes

02:11

it is to shit

why have exponential back off

there is no reason for it

TomWij

see, you complained.

tzenes

to illustrate a point

I also complained about Jinni

or didn't you notice?

TomWij

No, you didn't.

tzenes

yeah, I said it was a lousy recommendation engine

oop, there I did it again

TomWij

You're basing yourself on a subjective article, not on personal experience...

tzenes

02:14

first of all the article contains concrete data

TomWij

That subjective article was a test, it's again not based on personal experience...

tzenes

secondly, personal experience is subjective by definition

thirdly, look at what they think is good anime

its like a cross section of what's popular

TomWij

It's like the article saying that iPhone users have more sex.

tzenes

except scaled by popularity

I'm starting to think you didn't read the article at all

wow, Jinni pulled all my netflix data and some how gave me even worse recommendatins

TomWij

Yes, you can magically tell by a recommendation it is worse! Good job, try again later...

Maybe you're in that 10% of the users for which the recommendation engine wouldn't work... ;-)

tzenes

02:18

no, I mean the recommendations that it had before were better

and its not 10% of users

you can't get better than 90% accuracy, which since genre gives you 80% for free is very lame

alright, let's see if it can give me a good crime movie

Top suggestions: CSI, Law and Order Criminal Intent, Wild Things and Murder One

I guess 1 for 4 isn't that bad

TomWij

Hmm, I'm starting to wonder if you have read the article...

tzenes

Allow me to summarize it for you

TomWij

Because it was not about just guessing.

tzenes

A couple years back Netflix introduced a competition

its was in reference to the Napoleon Dynamite problem

the problem Netflix had was that their accuracy for predicting Napoleon Dynamite was very low given the sample size they had

so they offered a large cash prize to anyone who could write a better algorithm for recommendations

not to solve the Napoleon Dynamite Problem, but to get better recommendations

now eventually they did award it to a team who's solution was actually to take in less data

based on the time between votes

but even with the improved algorithm they were unable to break the 10% barrier

What's worse, they still never solved the Napoleon Dynamite Problem

there are still some movies which they have almost no accuracy for

and their accuracy does not improve with more data

not only is there a limit to how good they can get, there is a limit to how much influence more data has

TomWij

"humorous surreal buddies" shows me "Napoleon Dynamite" in the corner

tzenes

02:27

A coin lands heads up half the time?

TomWij

The movie match in Jinni shows "great" for me, I can tell based on looking at the trailer and a scene that I like this movie.

tzenes

it was an ok movie

Mana

A single experience with a recommendation engine is never conclusive.

TomWij

Nor is a subjective article.

tzenes

I don't see how any part of that article is subjective

TomWij

02:35

First one: less predictable != unpredictable

tzenes

it never says unpredictable

antony.trupe

someone on the internet is wrong!

tzenes

it does say, just as bad as it was

antony.trupe

prediction accuracy:=100%

TomWij

It does say...

tzenes

02:37

"With 116,362 ratings, Napoleon Dynamite has a higher error than any other movie rated more than 50,000 times. I’s RMSE is 1.1934: just as bad as it was for Len Bertoni when the original article was written."

TomWij

Second one: This is an exceptional movie being less predictable, look at the very small amount of other dots that are, then look at the mass of other dots and their position. Amaze yourself.

tzenes

Actually look at them, his average RMS is >.5

the graph looks about .8

TomWij

That's not 1.1934.

tzenes

which would mean he's about as likely identify a 5 star as he is to say its a 3 star

with Napoleon Dynamite the range is 5-2.6

TomWij

But he doesn't identify a 1 star in your example. ;-)

tzenes

02:42

in statistics anything above 5% is considered bad, anything above 10% horrible, he's ranking in at 16%

TomWij

Yeah, if you care about a movie being 90% or 100% good if it has to be 95%.

It's a recommendation after all...

Again, consideration is subjective...

tzenes

5-3 isn't 90% to 100%, its 60% to 100%

TomWij

16% is 16%

tzenes

wrong 16

16% is his P value

TomWij

78% - 84% - 100%

tzenes

02:45

not his rating range

his rating range is much worse

do you mean 68%?

TomWij

no

84+16 = 100

tzenes

84-16 = 68

TomWij

uh yes

it's late :P

Still, it's worst case, for the overall amount of movies it's better.

tzenes

better than flipping a coin? yes

TomWij

It's a recommedation so I wouldn't worry about being 10% to 20% wrong

tzenes

02:49

but bare in mind, if you just sort by genres, you get 20%

so by your definition any site that sorts by genre's is good enough

I see why you like this site so much

TomWij

but that's not how it works...

tzenes

the site? no, I was making a sarcastic remark about the quality of its recommendations

I just really hate CSI, I think its the worst show on TV

and Code Gease for that matter

TomWij

That's not the recommedations, that's searching...

tzenes

you say that like there is a difference

A search is a series of recommendations

based on a query

Say I want a recommendation for a first person shooter

so I pop "First Person Shooter" into google

it evaluates a number of websites for what it thinks is the best recommendation about this topic

in this case, the wikipedia page

TomWij

Do your search again, check what it sorts it on...

tzenes

02:55

it is recommending that to my query

Probably because most people searching for First Person Shooter are looking for a definition

TomWij

Relevancy!

jinni.com/user/InsertYourUserNameHere/recommendations

tzenes

401

TomWij

check the url

Mana

Same

oh

antony.trupe

edit the username part of the url

Mana

02:59

maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan

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