The Bridge

yeah I'm ok with gaming

I think a site like cooking really suffers from the SE brand

I'm more upset about blizzard right now

Mana

what

what did Blizzard do

DON'T LEAVE ME HANGING BRO

at least Google understands

:6269 I don't know what @tzenes is upset about, but most of the rage I've seen at Blizz today is because they're instituting a hard cap on guild sizes in Cataclysm.

which mainly affects about a half dozen guilds, all of whom are over the cap by a factor of 10 or more.

someone asked about 2v2 starcraft

R.I.P. Goon Squad.

1:05 AM

and the bottom line is, its badly badly broken

but then again it was badly broken in Broodwars

but there is no way to tell people this without getting into an argument

it is impossible to discuss

this is very very frustrating for me

:6276 Is it really that surprising that in a game with a fairly tenuous Rock Paper Scissors design, built around 1v1, that larger matchups would not be balanced? (And no, I don't mean RPS in a Terran trumps Zerg Trumps protoss sense, but rather in the sense that on the whole, SC is about counters and counters to those counters.)

no, it fact its more likely not less

that doesn't bother me. What bothers me is that you cannot explain this without getting into an argument

It's basically the inverse of the problem that they ran into with arena sizes in WoW. Hopefully they'll realize it needs the same solution.

i.e. when Blizz realized they couldn't balance 2v2 without ruining 3v3/5v5, they abdicated from balancing it entirely, removed it from the upper tiers of competitive play, and essentially turned it into a 'minor league, just for fun' circuit.

no they're going to try to balance it

for now they will. In the long term, the best thing to hope for is that they give up.

The fact that they've acknowledged '1v1 is sacred' is a really really good sign that they'll give up before they let said attempts break 1v1.

1:14 AM

I hope so

But there are also plenty of variables they can tweak that won't affect 1v1 balance (map design, rules re: Resource sharing, etc.) before they throw in that towel, so I wouldn't expect them to do so immediately.

I think if they move from the 2v2 they have toward a more ffa approach that alone will do a lot

sure you'll still have fast rushes, but it'll get rid of the more ridiculous strategies

I'm really curious to see the Q&A/release postmortem discussion that'll come out of blizzcon in 2 weeks

yeah

I'm hoping for a bunch of cataclysm questions

that'll really help our user base

hopefully I can help there... Been playing the beta for a few months now at least. :)

1:21 AM

How is it?

the new 1-60 is amazing.

80-85 levelling is a lot of fun but a very very different game.

i.e. pulling more than one mob is death

hardmode

heroics are very reminiscent of BC

I always felt the biggest problem with WoW is the focus on end game

when I played in vanilla, going from 1-60 meant something

I'm nostalgic for that experience

on the one hand, that's more true in cataclysm than ever. 1-60 is fast, and with heirlooms, including two MORE +10% xp ones, (which stack with the 2 existing +10% and the existing +5% for +35% XP, and which in turn stack with the new +10% XP guild bonus... etc. etc.)

on the other hand, they've made low level questing incredibly awesome and the zones enormously fun

1:24 AM

ugh

yeah

I think they definitely learned a lesson in WotLK about making zones fun

even back in BC

making zones a thing was better than vanilla

also, the goblin 10-20 zone has a roller coaster and a golf course.

and Westfall is one giant CSI joke, as Lieutenant Horatio Lane investigates the murder of Ol' Blanchy.

brb

Oh man, Bethesda announced some of the tracks for the two New Vegas radio stations

awesome Rat Pack shit all over.

1:49 AM

nice

alexanderpas

3:19 AM

X3TC, you're a bitch!

... wat.

alexanderpas

not giving me a weapon to start with ;)

alexanderpas

3:42 AM

I posted a question on the site about it.

8:15 AM

so, hm, now that jin isn't around do you want to see screenshots from the CSSSSSSSSSSS stuff he sent me? :D

8:54 AM

I guess no

10:01 AM

►

11:23 AM

oh my god

fhtr.org

WANT

2:10 PM

It's kinda funny when I look at the tools and find myself in disagreement with all running votes

all close votes, all delete votes, all undelete votes...

2:57 PM

Compatibility Testing

3:47 PM

arrr, I just objectively answered a release date question!

Take that, close police!

4:08 PM

so your answer to his "when will it release?" is, sometime after October?

the question is not "when will it release" ;)

fine "leave alpha"

your answer is just as helpful to both questions

I'm going to magically predict, sometime after November

well, if the question was "when will it release?" I'd have given a negative answer ("this isn't going to happen"), that's not very useful

the asker said, "how long will the price stay at €/$10?"

and I said "at least till Halloween"

that's a positive answer :)

I'm going to say "it won't go up before chrismas"

and as my source I'm going to cite: basic understanding of economics

Mind you, he's not asking about going live, he's asking about going beta

4:13 PM

Actually, the price hike he's referring to is on release

though he has suggested the price will go up there is nothing definitive

from minecraft.net/prepurchase.jsp

> The price will go up at beta.

yes, and once again he hasn't posted a number

I'm willing to bet that while its in beta the price will still be €10?

minecraft.net/copyright.jsp

but that's because I'm a developer and I've had experience with these things

> Although we are very passionate about this project, we cannot guarantee that it will be completed - that's why we offer the discounted price. When you purchase the game, you pay for it as it is right now. Future updates are an added bonus.

Feel free to bet

4:15 PM

once again my source is: basic understanding of economics

I think it'll go up to 12 maybe?

not by much but definitely by a bit

this is all speculation

:6366 I know, but the boo update isn't speculation.

certainly you have reason for the speculation, but its still speculation

Has it released yet?

Ok, that was rhetorical, you were supposed to say "no" so I could say SPECULATION

He's still making major balance changes, and that's a fact

4:17 PM

is he?

have you seen the code?

expiring torches?

3D realms also told me I'd have Duke Nukem Forever before I was 25

So if somebody asked if DNF would go up before you were 24 the objectively correct answer would've been yes

and indeed, it turns out it's correct

if, one year ago, someone had asked if DNF would ever be release, everyone would have said "no"

they'd say it was objective

they'd say it was correct

they'd also be wrong

since you don't know if your answer is correct, I don't think it really belongs

for all you know, he could take it into beta on October 24th

if, four years ago, someone had asked if iPhone would ever support native apps, everyone would have said "no"

what's your point again?

4:20 PM

be like: yeah I'm releasing the patch early so you can enjoy it before haloween... also "BETA," no price hike

It is unreasonable to expect answers to be forever valid

My point is no one is prescient, and the only correct answer to a question about the future is: We don't know

maybe not forever valid, but at least devoid of speculation

so we can never answer questions! what if a patch comes out that changes the answer?

That's speculative

you can only answer about the current state

yeah, can you rule it out?

:6393 congratulations, you just won the argument for me

4:21 PM

I don't ask that answers be forever correct, only correct at the time

if you say so

your answer is not correct

my answer is correct at this time

no its not

he's never said that beta will be after the patch

for all you know its going to be before

you're just guessing

it references an official announcement and makes an extremely reasonable assumption

> makes an ... assumption

I know you stuck adjectives in there to try to make it sound like less of a guess

but my point is that its still a guess

There are guesses and guesses

4:23 PM

That DNF would never come out was an "extremely reasonable assumption"

Yeah, at the time it was the correct answer

so? what's your point? checkmarks can be revoked. Answers can be changed.

it wasn't the correct answer

Nobody went out and nuked all the posts on meta.SO that assumed SE 1.0 would succeed

though the closing of 3D realms had been announced, the game had already moved studios

I think that's a little bit of a specious analogy

since meta sites aren't really Q&A sites

though we use the Q&A engine their design is to discuss

when discussing a topic speculation is certainly a viable point

but a real Q&A site isn't about discussion, its about answers

the correct answer to his question is: We don't know. Many people think not till after the next Patch (link here).

which doesn't really answer his question, but it is helpful

I'm sure you've prefixed all your essays with "In the current version of this game,"

and "Assuming Blizzard doesn't change the game in the upcoming patches,"

4:26 PM

The assumption is always the current version

anything else is speculation

I do reference past versions; and I do try to keep speculation out of my posts

yeah, and I'm pointing to the current version of a post that makes clear the game is changing radically

there was a post on an up coming patch where I only discussed what the changes that were announced would mean (ie. decreasing this damage will make this kill a 3 shot from a 2 shot)

:6427 I'm not arguing that. I'm arguing that you're guessing, not that the answer couldn't change

I wasn't referencing any singular answer, by the way.

I was

I'm sure @oak is glad to see he's joining in the middle of yet another argument :P

4:29 PM

haha, he does have good timing

it's unfortunate arguments is the only source of activity on chat as of late anyway

Oak

Hi guys

I think many people are frusterated with SE in general

hi Oak

Oak

The usual antics, I see

:D

Oak

4:31 PM

Man I was expecting the new design by now, Jin said "tomorrow" yesterday

Oak

Hey I guess that's relevant to your argument

Oak

oops I didn't mean too, I wanted to divert the topic

Oh well, we'll have 91 days in beta like the webapps guys

Oak

Crap.

The topic was "oh look an answerable release-date question"/"no it's not" btw

4:32 PM

hah

Oak

Yea I saw

What if we changed the question to "What information has been put out about patches, release dates and the change in price?"

because that is definitely not speculative, but still allows for people to make their own assumptions based on the data.

@tzenes Not sure, he answers most of those questions in the question body

ok, we can say "any other "

Oak

Not sure about my opinion here... I'm kinda in the middle. I agree with tzenes that everything is more or less speculation, but I also think that once there's sufficient evidence of something happening, it can be considered objective. I mean, anyone asking about something like that has to expect some percentage of error.

4:34 PM

I think dates in the video game industry (and software industry in general) have a really high margin for error

Oak

btw @badp I know you've already seen the design, are you happy with it?

:6457 It's pretty similar to the screenies.

Differences:

- the top bar and rep numbers are not pixelated (Arial?)

actually

let me give you screenies

aw, I wanted pixelated rep

Oak

@tzenes I mean that once a company has something like an exact release date, it's good enough for an answer in my opinion.

Oak

also agreed, the pixelated numbers were cool

4:36 PM

@Oak I've seen enough companies blow those exact release dates, that I don't believe them

Oak

@badp no need, I'll probably see it soon enough

I remember when the original starcraft had a specific release date

Oak

@tzenes me too, but my point is that an exact release date can be good enough for giving an answer here about it

and then that was pushed back 6 months

Oak

Though I personally support downvoting the questions

4:37 PM

I think the information that a company has released can be helpful

but ultimately, until it happens, there is no real answer

I didn't have Lucida Sans installed here

I think we could rephrase them to ask what information is out there

hmmm

Oak

Hmm. I'm not crazy about the side bars, I wish they would have been the same color as the upper bar

@Jin maybe if you "backlit" the ask a question mothership, its be more clear its a button?

here's the same rendered by Chromium (except for the header bar font size)

Notice fonts are much nicer.

4:39 PM

thumbnail

fixing

It's unfortunate font-face looks so bad in Firefox

not pictured: the green tabs fade to white on hover

ask a question didn't, however

dunno if he's changed it

Oak

Hope so

brb

Oak

Also, I really love both the logo and the flowing effect of the logo and title

Oak

It's funny to see webapps content with cooking welcome box on a gaming css :)

4:44 PM

yeah, he told me to pay no mind to the actual text :)

let me see how the site looks like with Lucida Sans actually available

(main reason why I didn't link to the question page pictures)

oh. okay. the design doesn't actually use Lucida Sans.

It uses Arial, however. Not Tahoma. Real italics ftw!

C. Ross

5:12 PM

I take it Jin is working out the details

> This site is nearing the end of its beta and will be launching very soon.

:6501 That's been there for a while now

C. Ross

from Area 51

Cooking, Related MSO question

C. Ross

ah, anyone know when it will go live?

:6506 chat.gaming.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/6210#6210

5:16 PM

hi

Oak

Hi @Jin, the last hour is basically gossip about your design

Oak

as well as opinions

@Jin
> maybe if you "backlit" the ask a question mothership, its be more clear its a button?

i just saw! i'm actually finaliing on the captcha image now...

well I can't get markdown to work

5:18 PM

you mean adding a glow to it?

yeah, something subtle, not a large gradual gradient like the logo

To make it look more like a button and less like part of the background

regarding the ask button, i'd like to see how most people will use it as it is now. it's possible i may just move "ask question" as another tab like the others(but maybe a diff color)

that might be better

It feels kind of lost right now

but i'd like to test out the design you guys saw first...

I like the ship, it makes sense with the damaged tabs

5:19 PM

keep in mind, i always do post production tweaks

so nothing is final... in my experience at least

fair enough

btw, i have whole new respect for pixel artists

Oak

I'll just post a "complaints" post in meta, I already have some :) but on the other hands some parts look brilliant

haha

i remember jeff mentioned to me a long time ago, he intentionally didn't emphasize the "ask question" link on SO is to discourage people ask right away, without searching for answers first

6

this way, it filters out some noise...

5:21 PM

@badp what do you think of my comment here: gaming.stackexchange.com/questions/8517/…

@Jin I never thought of that

Q: Design Ideas for the final site

btw unrelated:

20

Hi everyone, At the beginning of the beta I linked up Mat Tomaszewski from the Canonical Design Team to work with Jin Yang from SO on the design for the final site. I am posting the design here on his behalf since he doesn't have the rep (yet!) Home page: Question Page Error Page (a litt...

:6530 I think it's Bruce's turn to reply there.

i'm linking that here because i know some of you use ubtuntu?

I agree, I'm looking for your opinion

Unrelatedly, are there reviews on the released version of the Ubuntu font around yet?

I'm not a fan of those circles in the question page

the design is otherwise very nice and bold

is the site going to get to have official backing from Ubuntu then?

5:27 PM

i talked to Mat, the designer from Canonical. he told me the font has been fully tested on all OS and browsers for font-face

he gave me a design guide from the company, which i'll follow to fill in the rest of the styling when i convert to css.

but, if you have any comments about the Ubuntu design, post there!

:6541 Yeah, I know. This is the most glaring issue I could find :)