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03:47
@Xernist Depends on distance of course. Typically if you halve the distance you end up with 4x the light. 1/d^2 inverse square law. With more illumination, results sum.
So take a lamp at X intensity. To add a stop of light, duplicate the light at the same intensity.
(or if you look at it another way, you multiply by the outputs. So 2 x Lights)
It can be sometimes easier to think in terms of multiplication ratios. For example, if a light plane is emitting that is 1 unit by 1 unit, and we halve the distance, our plane becomes effectively 2 units by 2 units due to the dimensions.
 
12 hours later…
16:07
@troy_s ok thanks one more time, I've made tests, you're right it bring back to scene referred linear, logically with modification because of desaturation, and only if we don't bake contrast look I guess.
After thinking about it I'm agree with you Filmic is a color space, variant of sRGB in the transfer curve, or technical name BT.709/Filmic Log Color Space.
Why do you think it's tricky to call it a color space, since there is on parameter that is different from sRGB?
16:52
@Mareck It also provides a bit of a problem now that I think about it. The output "from_reference" transform will desaturate everything +6.0 stops above. The input unfolds the data back to 6.5. That means double desaturation on those 0.5 values... Need to think on how to prevent that.
@Mareck Given that we can provide the information required, it could be called a colour space. I am just hesitant.
Also, given it is changing, probably not quite the best time. I might try to get the wide gamut primaries pushed today. I am wanting to redo the whole thing to be built from Python before I do that though.
@troy_s ok, several time now that I think it can be a good things to have a setup with and without desaturation, for cartoon or specific color stuff.
I'm sure you're busy enough to not ask for something ^^.
Just sharing thoughts
@Mareck The issue is that without ends up broken. So it isn't a great idea from my vantage, and it would be an issue of complicating things quite badly.
Ok this I really don't know how it works,so I completly trust you.
Try the Notorious Six™ and you will see it.
There are two issues that cause problems:
A) The transfer curve is applied per value.
B) The Notorious Six™ are extremely problematic. R, G, B, R+G, R+B, G+B.
Try any ratio of mixes on the Notorious Six™ and you will see.
Any texture with the Notorious Six™, crush with light.
17:08
Isn't it the issue I saw on an ACES doc, about the self reflexion of glossy materials?
I'll have a little walk, come back later.
17:22
@Mareck I don't believe so. It isn't physically based.
@Mareck It really is a byproduct of what we might want aesthetically from the virtual camera.
 
2 hours later…
19:28
@troy_s Don't get me wrong, I love it and I need it I'm in photorealism, but sometime I can have more cartoony stuff, it's just that for the moment I don't know how desaturation fit with this style.
"We still need to solve how to add the 'Filmic Blender' configure file in a way it's compatible. Maybe via User Preferences? Need someone to pick up this task to solve." from developers meeting notes.
well @troy_s we'll see what they come up with. All I ask is the devs not make anything worse.
19:43
@David Colour in Blender is already worse due to legacy issues. That is, colour is terribly broken across a few different areas that need addressing.
@David Curves. Some of those blend formulas. Etc.
@David That is actually Sergey thinking on how to remove the current configuration and use a new one, without having a civil war.
@Mareck You can always push saturation back. The problem is that without the desaturation, the colours end up skewed and wrong.
(Most of the colour problems are historic, and confusion about scene referred versus display referred models, which is at least part of the reason Filmic exists; to make it very clear that there are two models at play.)
20:02
@troy_s so what is going on is actually good?
I'll test it on cartoony style, when I'll have the time, it's not an emergency.
It's funny how the reactions about this whole topic show exactly why we are here, we worked a certain way because of a technology, when this technology changed we choose to work with not well suited workflow because it's easyier than making the way people think differently.
The same can be apply to our whole system/civilisation
@David now that you have it, will it be so different to have it in trunk?
@Mareck I'll second that. we as humans are very much creatures of habit.
@Mareck well that is the thing. No idea how they will end up implementing it "Maybe via User Preferences" so, yes it might be so different.
Even Render Street (renderfarm) already have it ^^
@David I have hoped that with the 100k views per week that someone would start discussing what works and what doesn't and get a wiki page up or something. It hasn't happened yet, but we will see.
@troy_s 100k view on what?
20:08
@David Overall what is good is everything. The core concepts are getting out there, and even on BA, the bastion of thread wars and a few idiot times, there are healthy discussions.
@David Price's video.
@troy_s Oh.
@Mareck I just looked at your site, you do some nice archvis.
@Mareck I would also suggest that folks are really crushing light now because the aesthetics of blown out areas actually looks sort of cool in some instances. Restrained use would never hit the desaturation entry point of +6 EV.
@Mareck I actually find it rather cool that folks are experimenting with the extreme ends. See "Shell" on the low end, and some cool things being blown out on the higher.
I'll look
@Mareck Also, all I did was demo a view transform. Pixar, ILM, MPC, and every other post house on the planet has them, so it isn't anything remotely "new". The reasons to do it on the View I suppose are somewhat new, and why tonemapping + post processing can become a pinch point.
In fact look where? BA?
20:13
@David That video has uh... Quite a surface coverage. Literally on pace at 100k views per week.
@Mareck Shell I found on ArtStation. Twitter has some interesting things appearing with the #filmic_blender hashtag.
@troy_s it is impressive. Just looked, it has 203K in 9 days!
@David Anyways, the concepts that make Filmic what it is are what are important. I want folks to treat RGB and the concepts the way a good carpenter treats her wood. All of that rubbish "I am an rtist and not technical" crap is *bullshit.
youtube.com/user/AndrewPPrice/videos if you look at the view count across his videos, it is not just him it was the subject. nice work @troy_s!
I think you made something new about the workflow, LUT's aren't new at all but in Blender and before compositing, I think lot of people will envy us.
@David So even > 100k per week.
@Mareck Transforms on the view are actually a very basic byproduct of art and design thinking. It goes like this:
"OK we need to create an application for manipulating RGB pixels in a creative way. Blurring. Painting. Lighting. You name it."
"So we need a linear model?"
"Yes, otherwise all of our math is broken and the results are wonky."
"OK. So why don't we just linearize everything via the sRGB EOTF and call it done? 0.0 to 1.0 and everything is linear right?"
"Sure. But that is display linear. We want to manipulate photographs. So we need scene linear."
"OK. So we use scene referred linear."
"But we need to manipulate things. I can't manipulate things if 0.18 is so low on a curve now. If we make it nonlinear, I can."
"But if we make it nonlinear, we are back at the second point!"
"Oh. OK. So is there a way for us to have a scene linear reference space but see our work and have all of our controls nonlinear at times?"
"We can apply the transform on the view."
That is essentially why view based transforms rock.
Even better, and this is the precise point Blender is at a juncture to, we can support all workflows with educated pixel pushers. Consider the following example:
David is working on look development using Filmic. He wants to tweak his curves so that they are 1:1 with the view; he wants middle grey at the Filmic Log Encoding base 60.60% along the X axis 0% at the low value and 100% at the far right to be the 16.291 scene referred value.
Mareck on the other hand is tweaking normals for the wood floor. He needs a purely scene referred linear set of UI values.
Cegaton is working on a depth buffer from another application. This depth buffer is linear, but in the range of 0.0 to 50.0, so he wants his UI to reflect that range and not be constantly fighting it.
How can we support all three imagers carefully crafting work?
The answer is to permit the imagers to select their transforms per UI.
Based on the "suitcase" of configurations they are currently using in their small collaborative effort.
We aren't there yet with Blender. We could be if the culture picks up the core concepts in Filmic and thinks it through just as above's little discussion flows.
(And yes, the very problem with curves currently is precisely as above. The previous answer to the problem used to be "Use a transform and transform to the destination, do the work, then be careful to transform back" but that is horribly inefficient. Easier to have the UI tool to the mapping for you, and the reference never changes from scene referred linear.)
20:26
View based transforms rocks and you too, we aren't here yet but it's a nice vision of the future, I'll do my best to contribut to that.
@troy_s Maybe that could happen in blender if you took on a role of being a promoter. Currently Andrew Price and such are doing the promoting, and they aren't promoting your real goals. I'd draft a proposal for how the changes would look, on the actual UI. That will make everyone aware of it. Just my thoughts
@GiantCowFilms I promoted exactly what I intended, to exactly the folks I wanted to. Remember that none of this happens unless the first demo images are from extremely capable and experienced folks.
(Even a few of them were heavy resistant at first.)
@GiantCowFilms You have to remember I tried explaining these issues to developers. For uh... Like a decade and a half now.
@GiantCowFilms The problem I discovered is that imaging is plenty like chess; you need one part practice / experience and one part theory.
All the theory in the world is worthless if folks that are using the tools / doing it can't see it
Likewise for trying to get things "solved." To solve something, we have to agree that there is a problem in the first place.
@troy_s a decade, you means you're trying to do what's happening here for other software for a decade?
(If you read the sarcastic "So Andrew discovered tonemapping in 2017" comments, this is the very easiest issue they miss.)
or with Blender devs?
20:36
@Mareck With Blender and colour related things? Probably a little more. I started putting around with the VSE and found issues there. It cascaded from there.
@troy_s The developers don't care about what anyone says. Ton just likes to make his little movies. You need to explain what you want, in terms of concrete features, to the community.
@Mareck Check the commits. You will see discussions I had with Peter Schlaile back in the day, then later with Matt Ebb. Both awesome peeps. Like really awesome.
To be honest it just makes it easier to understand if nothing else
@GiantCowFilms The developers do care, which is also why I hate it when that crap pops up.
They do care. The issue is culture.
Why do I return to that word? When were people talking about view transforms?
Never right? It took a critical mass of culture before others would look at that CM panel.
@troy_s They do care. But they don't care about what one person on a soapbox says. They don't listen, at least not most of them. It takes a community wide understanding for them to take something seriously.
20:38
It's already hard for imagers so I can imagine how it can be for "pure" devs
@GiantCowFilms Exactly. And that is the way it should be. Having one person do something, even if their mental model is working, is probably sub optimal.
I just think that giving an example would be helpful
Take something where an entire workflow and mental model is wrapped around display referred imaging... Now you flip it on its head.
concrete a v. b examples that show people what is broken, and concrete examples of how it can be changed. @troy_s you talk in very abstract terms - which is part of the reason nobody does anything.
I find you very difficult to understand.
I have thought about how to "solve" the issues for a long time now. Thankfully some other applications have a few things we can borrow. They haven't solved it entirely though and it leaves a place for innovation.
20:41
@troy_s You say, that but how would it look like in real terms.
@GiantCowFilms Really? How about if I said "The view transform is not mapping middle grey the same way that other view transform is."
@GiantCowFilms You would have sat there blinking at me a few months ago right? Now it is like "OK. I got that."
It's not Troy that is abstract, it's our conception of light/colors
@troy_s I'm still blinking. Because you talke about the view transform and the other view transform. My brain desperately wants to examples of actual view transform and to see them not macthing.
@GiantCowFilms I do intend to document things. I am carefully watching for signs of life out there on the problem fronts. Once the discussion happens, it is a better time.
@troy_s I'd say the sooner the better
20:43
@GiantCowFilms LOL. But you understood the gist of it.
and then you can send your documentation at the right moment
@troy_s true
@GiantCowFilms that is just it. You can't really do a old vs filimc render. there are too many variables that need to change to get an impactful final image. it is not just as simple as. "Click on Filimc Log Encoding Base" great image!
@GiantCowFilms Or ask and say "Well how can we solve this?" and see if someone else spots where it doesn't work.
Look on BA next few day/week, I've planed something ^^
@David Yes indeed. Better, you have to start to really engage with "Whoa... What the hell is an RGB value?"
20:45
@David Andrew price made several that showed why it matters
He did a pretty good job of that
@David Note that that simple question (and the Trojan horse payload in Filmic ;) ) spreads out to "Whoa... Does Photoshop do this? Why? Why not? What about file formats? Why? Why not?"
@GiantCowFilms that is where I give him credit. I've found it kind of hard to find examples where it makes a big difference.
@troy_s then when happens when I take a image from blender into photoshop...
Not a perfect A-B comparison but it does a good job of sowing why filmic matters.
if you did not have the HDR showing, the difference would be much less noticeable.
But the point is that there is alot more in blender that needs to be fixed (because it has hard coded sRGB) everywhere.
@David Which is why I put it there.
20:49
@David Yep. All part and parcel of becoming educated pixel pushers. I have learned a crapload from folks that really understand the mechanics of raytracing for example.
@GiantCowFilms The good news is that it is mostly not hard coded sRGB transfer function everywhere. I would guess maybe 90% of Blender is good to go.
@troy_s Exactly. Publish a hit-list of sRGB hard-coded instances.
A hit list is something a developer can understand. They can understand color too, but hit lists are an even more universal developer language.
@David Ahhh see! Great question. This is a visual effects issue... Now think that through...
@David What if we used a display referred background plate with scene referred foreground?
@David We would need a transfer function on the scene referred data right? We have to bend it for the display.
@David But what happens to the display referred background plate? If we use a display referred background, our data is say, sRGB encoded. But we know that when we linearize it we only get 0.0 to 1.0 (aka display linear)
Which can't possibly be correct! We know that those sky values should be much higher!!!
So what we learn from that simple observation is that some part of our mental model is broken.
That is, what we thought was linear from a camera, isn't. If we have sRGB encoded image, the image ends up display linear, but not scene linear.
but if you are using a display referred backplate then the values are 0-1, even though they are representing something else.
That is, there is another nonlinear curve hidden in the image. It is the one that the camera applies... The camera is secretly pushing a display referred tonemap into it.
So what we learn from your observation is that A) a JPEG from a camera might say sRGB (meaning EOTF &Colour) but it is not an sRGB EOTF encoded set of values.
They lied.
And B) if they lie, when we apply our nonlinear bending to our values, we now have the CGI under one perfect nonlinear curve but the background plate ends up... Wait for it...
Under two nonlinear curves.
Our curve, plus the super secret camera curve.
So when you looked at those dozens of HDRI images with CGI, even if they were a correct HDRI (most aren't) they still looked like crap even with massaging.
Because your brain spots that double up believe it or not.
We are extremely well trained to read visual imagery.
@troy_s no kidding? really?
20:57
@GiantCowFilms Check luminance patch. ;) Also check Sky Texture, Wavelength, Blackbody, and RGB to Value nodes in Cycles.
@David Bingo. ;)
Check these out...
(apologies for the repeat posting for those that have seen these...)
@troy_s you can just post the link to the message from the transcript.
It's always informative and refreshing our memory ^^
Are these amazing CGI? Nope.
What is amazing? No post processing.
Zero. Zilch. Just unified transfer curves on uniform energy ratios.
@troy_s I'm a little lost
21:02
@GiantCowFilms If you look at the images, they are a scene referred background plate with a scene referred foreground plate under the same transfer curve (view)
@troy_s does make for a good point.
Right
but what do you mean about the camera's jpegs being under two non-linear transforms?
If you look at the glass, and we were to use a display referred background plate there, you would spot it in a heartbeat.
@GiantCowFilms If you take a JPEG out of a camera it will be sRGB proper; the values encoded as sRGB transfer curved values and sRGB primaries / white point.
@GiantCowFilms That is, if we take those images into a proper tool and "linearize" them, we would of course use the sRGB EOTF backwards right? But look at our value range... They would be 0.0 to 1.0 after linearization. Hence display linear, not scene linear.
@GiantCowFilms The values are clearly not linear because well we would have grass and hot sky all crammed in there, with middle grey up quite high... We know this can't be true
@GiantCowFilms What we are missing (and we would give up in confusion if we weren't grounded in decent mental models) is that the camera is actually applying a tonemapping operation on the data. So it does a nonlinear mapping that takes the vast range and maps it down to something like sRGB's EOTF but isn't at all.
@troy_s quick (or probably not so quick) question, now that you got my brain thinking. Is there ever any way to get scene linear out of a sRGB image from a camera? I'm thinking not.
For a practical example, think of the output from Filmic. You can slap on the sRGB ICC profile and have it perfectly colour managed in an ICC application. We can't use that sRGB transfer function to linearize it back to "normal" though. (Detail: the proper ICC is a 2.2 power function ICC with 709 primaries, not the sRGB EOTF though)
21:08
you would need a raw image from camera to get back to the original scene linear.
@David You make these vomit spews worth it. You arrived at the entry point of a good observation.
@David Bingo. And cameras can be decoded to raw, which are mostly linear. To do that properly of course, you have to have the reason why and be aware of all of the little details that got us here in the first place.
@David Even better, there are consumer cameras such as the A6300 and A6500 that encode SLog2 and SLog3...
Which means you could shoot motion pictures, decode via the proper transform to scene referred linear, and composite CGI with the "magic" you see above.
Note in the glass example something that shows the limitations of even well massaged display referred plates...
Note that the energy passing through the huge glass ball is showing the plate itself. That is, we are seeing the scene referred values directly.
This is the perfect demonstration as to why the display referred background approach is so utterly busted up; we are always staring right at the background plates even if we think we aren't. Think reflections. Or SSS. Or refractions.
@troy_s the reflection of the glass plane in the ball, that is what you are talking about?
See the window?
21:13
sure
In the ball itself?
@troy_s Is there any hope for a BG plate made with a consumer camera that doesn't shoot sLog? Like for example my 70D?
yes it is blown out
Yes. Now we also see the window with no CGI in front
See how the window is blown out? We know it is scene referred so we know it is only "blown out" relative to our CGI exposure, which is exactly what we want...
ok makes sense so far
21:14
But what happens if we have a background plate that is display referred. We know it would be subject to another transfer function. Is the middle grey exposure the same? Is the transfer characteristic the same? Does it wrap the same scene referred values? Is the hardware transform putting a desaturation on it or not?
All of those questions and more are what trigger the "OMG something feels off"
When you use a display referred plate. When we do things in a fashion that has a "ground truth" (even simply aligning scene referred visual energy values) we see some crazy almost magic crap happen.
now I want an example of one that is off.
@GiantCowFilms Not without some massaging.
@David Make one. Greg Zaal's and Maxime's all have a scene referred HDRI and a low display referred image. Doing the simple things above is ridiculously fun.
You can get lost for an hour doing them. It really is almost magic.
@troy_s k, will do.
@troy_s Last I heard Greg was still using adobe lightroom tonemapped images
@GiantCowFilms Most of the HDRIs out there in consumer land are massaged, as we can expect. It is a question of how massaged. In an ideal world, you would have a wide gamut HDRI, such as in XYZ or something. His are also HDR which I tried to tell him would be great if they were EXR instead.
@David Before you do, try to imagine the above conversation if folks weren't at all experienced with the two models and all of the little bits of information that stack up to the following information.
21:20
why is exr better then hdr?
It really would be "tuned out" after one sentence.
@David TL;DR is that HDR wastes bits and EXRs have better granularity. HDR has a value range that can never be utilized, where EXRs at 32 bits are extremely granular.
@troy_s that is hard to do. It is like with my moderator tools on this site, I forget what the site lets "normal" users do.
@troy_s TBH though, the hdr format does compress things (slightly), but the download size differences are quite appealing to a $6 internet HDRI distributor.
@GiantCowFilms Compressed because the data is lost. ;)
@troy_s thanks
21:22
@troy_s true
@GiantCowFilms I'm downloading another of greg's now 470mb
@GiantCowFilms It would be a little bit like saying (extreme hyperbole warning) "TBH though, the PNG format does compress things (slightly), but the download size differences are quite appealing to a $6 internet HDRI distributor"
Fair enough.
HDR works obviously. The issue is wasted bits. That is, you could encode what is in an HDR at 32 bits in a DPX at 16 in most every case.
If you think of it that way, of course it is smaller; half of the data or more is wasted empty.
I'm reallizing that it took me quite a year to understand all your informations, 1st post on SE May 22 2016, but now my brain stops shifting.
21:26
@GiantCowFilms vimeo.com/150440657 go to 30 sec. that is why I can not do a filmic comparison render
Anyways, thanks for that excellent observation @david as it is a great way to summarize how important culture is here. The rather cool samples @gez did would be almost impossible to explain why if we hadn't been here chatting about scene referred versus display referred for the past six or so months.
@Mareck no kidding you got to your level of color knowledge in just a year?
@David Those sad demonstrations miss so much of the power of SLog and other logs. They are using things like FCPX and AE etc. Entirely misses the point.
@David I have said this at least a dozen times; if you want to really understand colour in a way that will let you build upward very, very, very rapidly, think of colour in two simple quantities / measurements / models.
@troy_s yah it did not look like the best demonstration... but it had raw un graded. which is what I wanted.
@troy_s I got that bit long ago.
@David Everything stems from those two questions. Everything.
The problem is the accumulate cruft of mental models that aren't super. Like Photoshop for example.
Anyways, wait until you try the HDRI mucking @David. Plenty of fun. The mapping node can help to orient and spin the environment map.
21:33
@troy_s well I dont yet know what I'm mucking in.
I have a feeling that I'm in for more then I expected.
@David I've spend nights with Troy, I don't know how people can't see what is he doing, at wich point he level up Blender and knowledge of blind peps like I was.
indeed @troy_s has such a deep wealth of knowledge of all things color.
This room has been a great resource, not only for me but I'm sure many others too.
The only thing I've got at that time was, I already had spotted that this was the light in blender/cycles that was missing depth. What leads me here.
@troy_s The reason why .hdr is so prolific is that it is so easy to implement its not even funny. I'm gonna be sitting here for weeks trying to compile open exr
I don't have much at all. I just tend to float around channels and forums that do. It can be hard to get interested when it feels so damn threatening or worse, unimportant
Most of what I have learned is a byproduct of me trying to deliver an album cover or music video and shitting the bed hard and having to figure out why
Here is another peep discovering the fun of mucking with scene referred imagery. twitter.com/Lentzduhwhale/status/834148264639336449
Anyone lurking; go try it. It is fun as hell. Render and sample the scene referred values.
@David Final tip; you can use dcraw to dump a linear 16 bit TIFF. Dash T dash 4.
Note it will be linear, so tag it accordingly when you load it in Blender (UV Image Editor) and it will already be sRGB / 709 lights by default so it should "just work". It won't be the dynamic range of Maxime's HDRIs, but should end up around 11-13 stops of coverage.
You can mix and match simple models with it if you align the values correctly. (Strength)
(or simple multiplication will work)
21:42
interesting
@David @GiantCowFilms can help there too.
@troy_s I dunno. The math is still ishy on my outputs.... I've been chasing my tail for 7 months now.
There is still some weird stuff going on in those highlights
@GiantCowFilms I thought cows had short tails :)
@troy_s BTW, I'd really like to know if my current line of HDRIs is checking out.
I know I'm still writing them to .hdr, but that is not trivial to fix.
But I don't want to start messing with the exr format until I've gotten the basics down
@GiantCowFilms That is a pretty damn good policy.
21:53
The hardest thing is I have an output, and there are no weird colors bands or funning colored pixels but you still don't know if its properly linear.
@David I'll update my website, one because I don't have right anymore to do Archviz (professionally), second because except for the bathroom, all others when I look back at them I think, oh no I've worked so much without Filmic and understanding what I was doing ^^.
There will be my fisrts (pro) Filmic images, but most of the lastest (and best^^) I couldn't post for now.
So frustrating.
@GiantCowFilms What did you adjust to get to that huge point?
@Mareck I know that feeling. I have stuff that I thought was so good then, that looks like trash now.
@troy_s Everything?
I can tell you exactly how I am treating my images
21:58
@GiantCowFilms Hey... If you think you are losing ground, just go back to your original starting point and think about how far along it came.
@GiantCowFilms No... Just the three or four things that fixed the various specific issues you cited as you went.
@David That isn't anything new. That is learning to deal with pushing things out and living with it. Pushing rubbish out, be it words, pictures, or otherwise, is a little like getting drunk and getting a tattoo.
@David Part of the process is learning to reconcile where you were with where you are and where you are going.
@troy_s I've dont that many a time, "look from where I've come" type of thing. Heck I did not want blender to add the color management back when. I (then) did not see any need for it.
@David I have crap out there in public circulation forever with typos and other things that drive me nuts. Just is what it is.
@troy_s I don't know if I'm loosing ground - that exactly my problem. I have no metric to measure my result
@troy_s So nice and real
@GiantCowFilms I am pretty sure you aren't given you were trying to blend values way back when. That isn't losing ground. :)
22:01
@troy_s I'm saying I have an output
now how do I test it for quality?
@GiantCowFilms LMAO
@GiantCowFilms Going to be hard without ground truth. An el-cheapo grey card can help. Measure the grey card at various exposures with the camera, and check resultant values. Should be close-ish.
@troy_s Okay
@troy_s Would you mind taking a look at one of my .hdrs and seeing if it passes the basic sniff test
@GiantCowFilms Plop it on S3 or somewhere.
@troy_s Okay
can I email you a link
I can give you a bin if you don't have one.
Sure links are fine.
22:05
because I can send you to the preview version of my website
@troy_s Send me an email giantcowfilms.com/contact and I will reply with your link. This will be easier in the long run/ Thanks
I am easy to find online.
@troy_s Oh okay
that works too
I admire your courage posting your email online like that.
22:24
Email sent.
Did it work?
@troy_s
@GiantCowFilms Yes.
Yay! That email address has been giving some trouble lately.
22:45
@troy_s that was a good read. I learned a bit from it. Now I get why you say exrs would be better for the lighting.
exr has more precision, hdr can hold a greater range
23:08
@David Yep. That's the essence of it. EXRs at 32 bit depth also cover all of the range we need in even science fiction stuff with a few suns.
@David If you look at his chart, you'll see an interesting little ditty where the blue little series of sawtooth ramps are displayed. That's EXRs nature of storage at work. As you get more and more specific values, the resolution fades off.
@David Then you bump to the next "increment" and you have great precision again, gradually tapering off in granularity. Rinse and repeat.
The essence is that by encoding to HDR you are likely dumping some good values in the precision zone to preserve values that are never going to be used.
(Very much like a good DPX encode)
@GiantCowFilms How am I to download the goddamn things?
@troy_s I said in the email
But yeah
Lemme see if i can make that a little easier
I went through to checkout. It started asking for payment crapola etc.
@troy_s If you click on it, it won't ask you for details
its in sandbox mode
Anyways, quickie point: HDR is definitely hurting you as you can see int he sample values for the sun; they are rounded in the demo very clearly.
but now if you click on the 1k preview, it will give you the full res
23:22
Also, in terms of the sun patch in the demo I see, there are three values that are reading 0.0.
I swapped them around in the DB until I can get the bug fixed that is stopping it from displaying the normal download link
Ok.
Let me try that one.
Your downsample has an error though.
Is that sample your's?
@troy_s Yeah. Those demos were scaled using Imagick. That is a temporary solution.
@troy_s which ones?
ImageMagick should do a fine job.
Which ones?
Load it into the UV and look. Three pixels right smack in the middle of the sun.
What you see is what Image Magick did
I'll investigate
23:24
366 megs incoming.
@GiantCowFilms You ought to offer grades of them by the way. I'd do different resolutions but also different colour spaces. The end all would be XYZ of course.
So highest resolution using XYZ would be say, 8.00 or 10.00 or whatever.
@troy_s Also different colour spaces?
@troy_s Oh I see
@GiantCowFilms Yes. We covered this.
:)
@troy_s Not quite making the connection
Those HDRI's are going to be rather useless to folks doing wider reference spaces. Or rather, they will be rather limited.
What colour are the primary lights in those encoded HDRIs?
@troy_s I'm using the sRGB primaries ATM
I can change that easily enough though
I just did that because those are the default for the .hdr format
23:27
That is one heavy HDR.
Yep.
@troy_s Now do you understand why I wasn't so aesthetic about the .exr format. Its even more bigly yuger.
This looks more plausible...
Well I'm not sure that EXR compressed would be larger sir.
@GiantCowFilms Going out on a limb and going to suggest that compressed EXR is going to be smaller and of better quality. Total speculation that may very well end up totally false.
@troy_s Will try it. Main reason is that exr is hard to implement.
@troy_s Yay! That one uses my Hoya ND, pricy but way less color abuse.
23:50
Hoya 3.0?
(10 stop I think they call 1000 pro?)
@GiantCowFilms Anyways... very hard to know if something is right or wrong. Best results would be to try and get that grey card and take measurements with your camera after you shoot the HDRI or so and see how the values map.
But I'd say it is probably uh... way better than where you started this adventure.
@troy_s yup

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