The Periodic Table

Brian

18:12

@pentavalentcarbon In some cases, yes. In others, like where an OP has an enormous, fundamental misunderstanding of something, clear expectations don't make the explaining any shorter.

@IͶΔ chemistry.stackexchange.com/help/badges/14/self-learner

IͶΔ

Yeah

user116211

18:31

@Martin-マーチン: English Men Team are in the finals :(

user116211

What's going on ;/

IͶΔ

@MAFIA36790 Where's the problem with that?

Did you want somewhere else to be in the finals?

@pentavalentcarbon The problem here is that if we don't expect their side to be interested, we'd start getting even worse questions.

The only way to objectively measure interest is see how much they've tried.

user116211

@IͶΔ: You can't get if you didn't follow cricket....

IͶΔ

That should ideally be the only reason we VTC or leave open a HW question.

pentavalentcarbon

@IͶΔ How can you get a worse question than this? chemistry.stackexchange.com/questions/48737/pre-lab-question

In the United States, this is the beginning of high school chemistry/

IͶΔ

18:36

@pentavalentcarbon You won't, instead you'd get butt-loads of those. And well, it isn't the worst case I've seen. At all

user116211

I've no problem with English Team but really it is difficult to digest that a team which never won a World Cup is now in finals :(

user116211

It's like once in a blue moon

IͶΔ

We VTC homework questions because we assume the OP is someone unfocused trying to get us do his job, rather than a baffled student eager to learn.

@Mart read this stuff please.

That's the biggest mistake with this.

We're judging content from its OP.

It has never been that way in closure.

But now that we've dived in, we can't look back.

pentavalentcarbon

I think we're in agreement but you didn't understand my original comment?

user116211

@IͶΔ that's not our problem?

Brian

18:38

@IͶΔ I don't think this is the case, actually.

IͶΔ

@Brian Only recently. It wasn't like this when I was an early reviewer.

Now how I understood it anyway.

pentavalentcarbon

@Brian What an optimist!

IͶΔ

@pentavalentcarbon I did.

Brian

I think we don't (and oughtn't) care whether OP is passing the buck, or whether they're a baffled student

user116211

@Brian Yes, that's what I'm saying

IͶΔ

18:39

2 days ago, by IͶΔ

Ya know guys, I just realized discussions where people don't disagree are very boring.

@Brian What should we care about then?

Brian

In either case, the StackExchange Q&A format is poorly suited for answering

user116211

We should only care about the quality of the question.....

IͶΔ

How can you objectively judge HW content?

@Brian . . . homework questions.

pentavalentcarbon

He's saying you don't, and you give equal importance to all questions.

user116211

@IͶΔ HW should not ask about do this for me or check where I mistook

Brian

18:40

"You should only ask practical, answerable questions based on actual problems that you face. Chatty, open-ended questions diminish the usefulness of our site and push other questions off the front page."

chemistry.stackexchange.com/help/dont-ask

IͶΔ

SE never meant to be a place where people learn. It should've been where people correct mistakes.

Brian

3

A: Policy on questions in basic mediums

These sorts of questions touch on the fundamental identity of the community. What do we want to be on- and off-topic here? Do we want to be a resource that extends to educating raw beginners? Do we choose to take on the responsibility to guide every misinformed, misguided, or confused individual...

IͶΔ

@pentavalentcarbon That's impossible in reality.

user116211

@IͶΔ The later is a way of learning, isn't it?

IͶΔ

@MAFIA36790 You didn't get what I said.

pentavalentcarbon

18:41

@IͶΔ Of course, no disagreement here. It's the altruistic view.

IͶΔ

SE was meant to be for professionals, not learners.

user116211

@IͶΔ Ah!

IͶΔ

You can't your code running, so you come and ask why it doesn't work.

It shouldn't have been a place for someone who doesn't know how to code.

user116211

That did pave the way for Physics Overflow!

IͶΔ

@Brian How do you decide whether a question is chatty or not?

Brian

18:43

@IͶΔ I wouldn't use the word 'chatty'

pentavalentcarbon

@IͶΔ And yet look at Stack Overflow now. Too late to change it.

Brian

If I could rewrite the help page

'open-ended' is the real problem

Helping people figure out where their misunderstanding is

open-ended.

IͶΔ

@Brian Yes, comments are the worst chat experience.

Brian

(On the time-scale and communication-scale of a SE Q&A post, at least.)

IͶΔ

@pentavalentcarbon Yes, I'm trying to say why it doesn't work as a teaching board or something.

pentavalentcarbon

18:44

@IͶΔ +1

Brian

@IͶΔ That mindset is a large part of the Meta answer I linked above (chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/28628301#28628301)

user116211

Hmm...if SE was meant only for experts, then what are we doing here?

IͶΔ

> Let's make one thing clear: On StackExchange, you're here to help the OP, and many other people. To do so, you are here to make a library of detailed answers to questions. Helping the OP is just a part of it, and everyone should be here for something bigger, better, more beautiful. You're also trying to build something people coming from Google will be glad to read.

Brian

SE is a terrible place for learning the basics in broad scope

IͶΔ

> Enough said. The only thing I hope happens by writing this meta post is that next time you (plural) write an answer, take a look back and see whether your answer is something someone coming from two days of cumbersome failing Google searches desperately looks for. I hope this becomes one of the few steps in trying to improve the answers we write.

17

Q: How useful are "Here, say this instead" answers, when the OP isn't asking for them?

Imagine three scenarios in Q/A: Q1: How can I say that "foo bars the baz"? A1: Just say "the foo bars" instead. Q2: Is "foo bars the baz" grammatically correct? A2: Just say "the foo bars" instead. Q3: What is the difference between "foo bars the baz" and "the baz is barred"...

We're that place.

Brian

18:46

Whether we like it or not?

IͶΔ

The sole reason SE exists is not to be a discussion board.

user116211

Yeah....

IͶΔ

Discussion boards work for some questions.

Hence, SE isn't a place for every question.

HW is one of those types.

user116211

79

Q: Is Stack Overflow a forum?

I was under the impression that Stack Overflow was a forum, or a forum-like object. And if it is not a forum: Why isn't it? What defines a forum?

discussion forum

IͶΔ

I imagine the only reason HW was allowed in the early days of the site was attracting people.

@MAFIA36790 You should totally stop linking to that stuff and read Shog9's posts.

That dude is one such orator.

user116211

18:48

All HWs are not formidable, although.

user116211

Remember, we are not against HWs

pentavalentcarbon

@IͶΔ Can you remind me what the HW CV is for? meta.chemistry.stackexchange.com/questions/3130/…

user116211

But are against those HWs which has really a dearth of quality or concept.....

user116211

As I said....

user116211

We are not Yahoo!

IͶΔ

18:49

@pentavalentcarbon The best way to explain is take a look at standard HW:

> A sample of 2 grams of fun was digested by a chatroom . . .

That was supposed to be the only HW.

It was back then.

Now we're voting to close everything as HW, and that's both worrying and annoying.

Brian

We absolutely need to alter the close reasons.

IͶΔ

Good thing that people agree with me.

I'm never this successful on meta.lazy. :P

user116211

@IͶΔ There are 5 reasons, I guess? Why only HW reason?

IͶΔ

@MAFIA36790 You don't reason with nature. You find reasons for what nature is doing.

user116211

The most famous CV is unclear what you are asking....

IͶΔ

18:53

Not here.

Anyway, AIWS, @Brian I think the way to solve this is to organize close reasons.

Give "lack of research" its own place, and watch out for its misuse.

user116211

I guess reviewing in Physics is much more easier, isn't it @IͶΔ ?

Brian

Things motivating me to VTC currently tend to be trying to say to OP:
1) "You didn't bother to write up anything about your thoughts, so I'm not going to bother to help you."
2) "I found that on Google in three seconds. Go away."
3) "Gah, you have [X] huge misunderstanding. The thought of trying to help you clear it up makes me want to die."
4) "That is such a basic question. The thought of trying to help you clear it up makes me want to die."

3

IͶΔ

HW goes back to being the close reason it was.

@MAFIA36790 Nope, you people don't seem to care.

user116211

@IͶΔ Hey, that's insulting ;(

IͶΔ

@MAFIA36790 Nope, it isn't necessarily a bad thing.

user116211

18:55

We have to deal with 100s of reviews everyday....

IͶΔ

Do note that the two sites are in two very different phases.

The physics.SE path is set.

We're in the phase of deciding what we want to be when we're physics.SE size.

Brian

So, I see three broad close reasons (echoing earlier conversation with @Mart):
1) Medical questions (go to Health.SE), possible with safety and/or controlled substances added in
2) Too little effort shown
3) It would take too long to explain.

IͶΔ

@Brian Too long to explain is "too broad".

Brian

@IͶΔ Righto, I just realized that.

IͶΔ

@Brian There is a problem with guidance.

See, viewing CV as "go away" isn't helpful.

pentavalentcarbon

18:57

@IͶΔ Or it could be very difficult/complicated.

IͶΔ

Because there is hope that OP fixes it up.

user116211

@Brian: Yes, CV is not implying go away?

IͶΔ

I was always amazed at how many people do show effort and their Q gets reopened in the early days of my reviewing.

user116211

That's what is re-open all about?

user116211

@IͶΔ How many?

IͶΔ

18:58

@pentavalentcarbon You can't tell me I wouldn't get the answer. That's just not how communication works. :)

@MAFIA36790 Considerable.

A considerable number.

That's why we have to be clear in telling them how they can fix it.

Assuming that the case is fixable.

We could've ended up with only one CV: "We can't answer this for technical reasons". But that wouldn't have been useful. It wouldn't have been useful because the OP wouldn't know how to fix it @Brian.

So we're coming up with a way on how to tell them better how to fix it.

Again, note that "what's the density of water?" is a lost cause and it won't be fixed.

We're talking about ones that can be.

All of this talk, so I'm telling you why we have to divide "too little effort shown" into two categories.

user116211

I'm missing the too localised one :(

IͶΔ

One of them is "You can find the answer without me, so bother me when you have something more interesting/important/intriguing/challenging".

One of them is "Tell me what you did, so I take it from there."

Brian

@IͶΔ Ah, well, yeah -- but if they're not motivated to fix it (and thus learn how to write better questions), then the SE model is to encourage them not to come back, right?

IͶΔ

The site is all about people.

Brian

(sorry for lag; meatspace conversation)

IͶΔ

19:03

@Brian Right.

It's looking to help people.

But to help people, there should be standards.

All the "free discussion for all -- no frigging rules" slots are taken

We're the library.

You can find the answer to many problems in a library.

Brian

@IͶΔ This is an important dichotomy. I like that.

IͶΔ

But if shout, they'll kick you out.

Hippalectryon

Throwing tables around is fine though :D

Brian

But is it appropriate to make that distinction in the VCRs?

IͶΔ

@Hippalectryon Well, this is the third place of the library. I guess the restroom?

pentavalentcarbon

19:05

@Hippalectryon Only in the part meant for small children. Like chat.

IͶΔ

@Brian Yes, if we want them to know how to fix it.

Brian

@IͶΔ Chat is the coffeeshop in the library lobby.

user116211

!!coffee

Chemobot

IͶΔ

@Brian That's the second place. Meta

Brian

19:07

@IͶΔ <nod> Wasn't arguing that it would be inappropriate to include them -- it was just a neutral question out of relative ignorance of the underlying governing principles of SE model.

IͶΔ

So I'm gonna go write up meta.

user116211

Meta is the kitchen.....

pentavalentcarbon

Yes, I'm much better behaved at the coffeeshop than the kids table...

Brian

@IͶΔ Nah. Meta is the "Employees Only" section of the library, where the administrative decisions get bandied about.

IͶΔ

Whatever. My analogotrix broke.

Brian

19:08

@IͶΔ Mine's digital.

That made no sense.

Sorry.

pentavalentcarbon

Well, I laughed.

user116211

@IͶΔ: Whatever be it, we need to consolidate the opinions for the overall community at Meta....

pentavalentcarbon

@MAFIA36790 Yes, better than here.

IͶΔ

@MAFIA36790 Well, I dare say that the voices on metaRUS.

I want to see some blood on meta. !!table

Brian

Part of the challenge is that it's so hard to frame clearly the various philosophies of on-/off-topic, and the possible categories for VCRs

Chemobot

19:10

(/-o-)/ ⌒ ┤

Brian

But, meeting impending, gotta run.

user116211

@IͶΔ Sometimes, I feel primitive in decoding your language :(

IͶΔ

@MAFIA36790 Sometimes, I feel primitive in decoding my own language.

@Brian See ya, nice chat

user116211

@IͶΔ: Bye, good night.

IͶΔ

Night

Discussion on CV reasons and SE philosophy

2 hours ago, 1 hour 44 minutes total – 153 messages, 5 users, 5 stars

Bookmarked just now by IͶΔ

IͶΔ

20:20

Now this is something you don't see everyday. I used to see answers without references, this is a reference without an answer. — IͶΔ 23 secs ago

This isn't an answer to the question and hence may be subject to deletion. I'm waiting to see how long it'll take for you to decide that the deletion is a conspiracy from the food industry's side. — IͶΔ 6 secs ago

1

Q: Identify products of Propiophenone using nmr

I've been analyzing a compound "propiophenone", using NMR and IR, and I can't tell which of the nmr spectrums relates to which isomer of C9H10O2 is which. At first I thought the two isomers were ethyl benzoate and phenyl propanoate, which would make the 1.5 peak from the CH3 group and the...

nmr

Now this is what I call good HW.

Ramanewbie

20:36

!!img/propiophenone

Chemobot

pentavalentcarbon

20:49

@IͶΔ Yeah, that's pretty good. Need an actual organic chemist for this one...

Ramanewbie

@hippa Is chemobot meant to be run under Py27 or 34 ?

Hippalectryon

@Ramanewbie 3.4, but it should run with both

Ramanewbie

I got this error with Py27 : (I managed to install PIL)

Traceback (most recent call last):
File "main.py", line 11, in <module>
clientImg = ImgurClient(client_id, client_secret)
File "/usr/local/lib/python2.7/dist-packages/imgurpython/client.py", line 85, in __init__
self.credits = self.get_credits()
File "/usr/local/lib/python2.7/dist-packages/imgurpython/client.py", line 94, in get_credits
return self.make_request('GET', 'credits', None, True)
File "/usr/local/lib/python2.7/dist-packages/imgurpython/client.py", line 158, in make_request
raise ImgurClientError('JSON decoding of response failed.')

Hippalectryon

It happens sometimes, I can't do anything about it, it's the Imgur module. Most of the time it should work though, does it do it everytime for you ?

Ramanewbie

All the times. What can I do ?

Hippalectryon

21:00

Try 3.4

Ramanewbie

I thought of it, but if I do I need to install packages. However, it seems that when I use pip it installs the packages for Py2.7

Hippalectryon

Idk and I don't have time to help you tonight. Maybe tomorrow.

Ramanewbie

ok

Ramanewbie

21:17

@pentavalentcarbon Are you here ?

pentavalentcarbon

Yes, I am.

Ramanewbie

@pentavalentcarbon I'm running on Linux, with Python27 and pip already installed and I use pip to install packages for Python27.
But I also have python 34 and need to install packages for it, but it seems that the pip command installs the packages for py27.

Do you know how I can install packages for py34 ?

pentavalentcarbon

Yes. Which distribution are you using?

Ramanewbie

Actually I'm using Raspbian (on a Raspberry Pi).

pentavalentcarbon

@Ramanewbie Ok, so that's basically repackaged Debian. Is it apt or apt-get to run the package manager?

Ramanewbie

21:24

I mean 'apt-get'

pentavalentcarbon

@Ramanewbie Ok, one moment...

Ramanewbie

:D

pentavalentcarbon

@Ramanewbie So, if you don't have it already, install python3-pip.

Ramanewbie

It's done.

pentavalentcarbon

This will install pip3, which will call pip using Python 3.

Ramanewbie

21:28

But how can my system make a difference between Py27's pip and Py34's ?

pentavalentcarbon

@Ramanewbie So, assuming everything is packaged properly, python-pip and python3-pip won't conflict with each other.

You use pip3 for Python 3, and pip or pip2 for Python 2.

Ramanewbie

Those 2 commands (python-pip and python3-pip) don't work. To install a package I just run pip, and it installs it for Py27.

pentavalentcarbon

What 2 commands?

@Ramanewbie Those are not commands. Those are the names of the Debian packages that install the commands.

The command is pip3.

Ramanewbie

Oh ok. But how can I run them ?

'command not found' :( for 'pip3'

pip alone works

pentavalentcarbon

Did you install the package like I said?

Ramanewbie

21:33

I run 'apt-get install python3-pip', and it went fine.

pentavalentcarbon

Right.

Ok, so now you should be able to use pip3 as a command.

and running which pip3 should print /usr/bin/pip3.

Ramanewbie

It's weird, 'which pip3' returns absolutely nothing

DeNiSkA

!!greet/@krotov

Chemobot

Welcome to The Periodic Table @krotov! Here are our chat guidelines and it's recommended that you read them. If you want to turn Mathjax on, make a bookmark of the link in this answer. Happy chatting!

pentavalentcarbon

@Ramanewbie Try dpkg-query -L python3-pip.

That will return a list of all the files installed by the package, assuming it's installed.

Ramanewbie

21:41

Alright I got it.

pentavalentcarbon

In that case, yes.

Ramanewbie

Well, it returns many things... But I still don't know how to run pip for Py3 !

pentavalentcarbon

@Ramanewbie I know, that's why I'm trying to help you.

Is /usr/bin/pip3 in the list?

Ramanewbie

/usr/bin/pip-3.2 is.

Oh is that the command I must run ?

pentavalentcarbon

That explains it. Yes.

This is why I don't use Debian.

Ramanewbie

21:45

Yeaah it seems that it works !

Is it not good ? (Debian)

pentavalentcarbon

I'm a software developer, and they (and Ubuntu) make design choices for packages that make my job very hard.

Ramanewbie

What distrib do you use then ?

pentavalentcarbon

But I'm in the minority, so don't worry about it.

I use Arch.

Ramanewbie

Arch Linux ?

pentavalentcarbon

@Ramanewbie Yes.

Ramanewbie

21:47

Alright, it works... Thanks a lot !! @pentavalentcarbon

pentavalentcarbon

@Ramanewbie If you have any more problems you think I can help with, feel free to ping me.

Ramanewbie

@pentavalentcarbon Thanks !

@pentavalentcarbon How can I install PIL for Py3 ?
Because I installed it for Py27, not using pip, but simply by running 'apt-get install python-imaging'

pentavalentcarbon

You can search to see if Debian provides the package.

I ran apt-cache search python3-imaging.

The package shows up in the list, so...

Ramanewbie

Not for me :(:(

how come ?

pentavalentcarbon

@Ramanewbie It might be because I'm technically using an Ubuntu machine and not a Debian one. We've already seen that you have pip-3.2 and not pip3, so I'm not surprised.

Let me check the Raspbian package list.

Ramanewbie

21:57

Alright. Could it be python-3.2-imaging ?

pentavalentcarbon

Mmmmm, probably not. You would think so, but they do silly things with the names...

Ramanewbie

Forget it, doesn't find it either...

pentavalentcarbon

Ok, I've searched through the package list, and it doesn't exist.

I think it's because PIL isn't compatible with Python 3.

Ramanewbie

But.. How do people on Debian / Raspbian do ??

Oh yes it is (I think, let me check)

pentavalentcarbon

@Ramanewbie Pillow is, I don't think PIL is.

Ramanewbie

22:02

Oh I thought it was the exact same. What's the difference ?

pentavalentcarbon

@Ramanewbie You would pip-install it yourself and cross your fingers that it compiles.

@Ramanewbie PIL is an old, abandoned library. Pillow is a fork that's actively updated.

And Pillow should be a drop-in, no-modification-necessary replacement for PIL.

Ramanewbie

pip install pillow works, indeed !

my bad

pentavalentcarbon

@Ramanewbie Nah, it can be confusing sometimes.

Ramanewbie

Indeed.

pentavalentcarbon

Part of the problem is Python packaging itself, not just whichever Linux distro you're using. Should I use the system package? Should I use pip? Should I use easy_install (never)?

Ramanewbie

22:07

I almost never used easy_install. I think it's only for Py 2, isn't it ?

pentavalentcarbon

@Ramanewbie Maybe, I don't remember. But you should never use it, because it's outdated in every way possible, from when Python packaging worked differently.

Ramanewbie

!!help

Hi! I'm the (for now) unofficial bot of ChemistrySE's main chatroom. __If you find me annoying, you can ignore me by clicking on my profile image and chosing "ignore this user"__
Here are the useful commands I provide : (don't add the brackets)
* img/[molecule's name] -> I will try and upload an image corresponding to your molecule. You can give its name, formula, SMILES, or any common identifier. When using complex InChI, use img/InChI=1/[molecule's InChI]
* help -> displays this message
* wiki/[article] -> returns a link to wikiedia's page n <article> if I can find it

Chemobot

Hi! I'm the (for now) unofficial bot of ChemistrySE's main chatroom. __If you find me annoying, you can ignore me by clicking on my profile image and chosing "ignore this user"__
Here are the useful commands I provide : (don't add the brackets)
* img/[molecule's name] -> I will try and upload an image corresponding to your molecule. You can give its name, formula, SMILES, or any common identifier. When using complex InChI, use img/InChI=1/[molecule's InChI]
* help -> displays this message
* wiki/[article] -> returns a link to wikiedia's page n <article> if I can find it

Ramanewbie

It works !

pentavalentcarbon

Ayyyyyy nice job!

Ramanewbie

22:10

@pentavalentcarbon Ok.

Yes, all this was in order to run chemobot on my RPi.

pentavalentcarbon

@Ramanewbie Nothing wrong with that. Pretty good lesson, eh?

Ramanewbie

@pentavalentcarbon Sure ! :D Thanks again about that !

But I'm going to switch it off while Hippa's is running, two bots doing the same job is useless...

!!gun

Chemobot

(ﾒ▼皿▼)┳*–

Ramanewbie

better :)

IͶΔ

22:49

@Cowper the real answer to your question (and the most useful one) is because that's just what happens.

I'll come tomorrow morning and explain to you more elaborately.

Discussion on CV reasons and SE philosophy

Transcript for