The Periodic Table

user161117

18:06

Lol is there a relationship between the de Broglie wavelength and the period of of the Periodic table? :P

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

@StevenGrigsby We can't be explained by science.

user161117

Dissenter

18:22

I have a brain puzzler

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

Oh hey @Dissenter! Long time no see!

Dissenter

Does the electronegativity of a central atom increase with increasing oxidation state?

Professor basically argued the opposite - that electropositivity increases as oxidation state increases.

@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M hey, what's up! :)

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

Does that even make sense?

Dissenter

No, of course my professor's argument doesn't make sense

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

Is this the hexamethylcyclohexane professor?

Dissenter

18:24

Because I'm right :P but I want confirmation/additional view points

user161117

oh

Dissenter

Yes

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

@Dissenter He is? LOL

Dissenter

It is the same person yes

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

@Martin don't miss this conversation.

user161117

18:24

are you sure?

Dissenter

@StevenGrigsby sure about what?

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

@StevenGrigsby No, he's Dissenter.

user161117

electronegativity

Dissenter

So yes/no, does electropositivity (EP) increase with increasing oxidation state?

I say "hell no"

user161117

where

user161117

18:26

I think you might be wrong

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

@Dissenter What's his argument?

user161117

like you have the right idea

Dissenter

@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M I made a post on SE

user161117

it's just the words you're using are wrong I think

Dissenter

@StevenGrigsby can you please elaborate?

user161117

18:26

Well explain what electronegativity is

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

@Dissenter Link. #TOOLAZY

Dissenter

Ability to attract electrons within a covalent framework

They are clearly not using the term correctly, or at least in the same way I understand it. Don't get up on it. — jerepierre 15 hours ago

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

All I see in the newest question is . . . Oh I had to scroll down. Sheesh.

user161117

Like the way in which electronegativity is defined is sorta not independent

Dissenter

@StevenGrigsby This is the definition my professor and I agree on

user161117

18:28

so it's almost by definition that if an atom is more oxidized it is more electropositive

Dissenter

?!

user161117

because electronegativity is defined on a bond not on an atom

user161117

it's how it's measured

Dissenter

Right

user161117

Maybe I'm backwards haha I feel like I might have confused who was saying what

Dissenter

18:29

We were talking about the various forms of chlorine from chloride ion to perchloric ion

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

Whoa whoa waiwaiwait. @Dis did your professor just see some video on how "cold doesn't eixst"?

Dissenter

He said that in the perchloric ion, the central Cl atom is way more EP than Cl-

user161117

yes

user161117

this is right

user161117

because it's oxidized

user161117

18:30

:O

Dissenter

Okay so if the central CL is way more EP than it must be way less EN than Cl-?

So can we agree that he's saying that the central Cl atom in perchloric acid is much less electronegative than chloride ion?

user161117

Huh

Dissenter

EP and EN are opposite properties

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

@StevenGrigsby Wait. You're saying the EN of Cl- is less than Cl+?

Dissenter

More of one, less of the other

@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M exactly! That's what I was trying to get him to see

user161117

18:31

No what you're saying isn't making sense

Dissenter

?

user161117

you can't compare electronegativities like that

user161117

CL is way more EP than it must be way less EN than Cl-

user161117

that is weird

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

That doesn't make sense.

Dissenter

18:32

I'm saying if Cl is way more EP in perchloric acid then it must be way less EN than Cl-

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

Let's fight.

user161117

no that's not how electronegativity works

Dissenter

You can definitely define EN for atoms that are bonded

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

Not responding

Dissenter

Read this

books.google.com/…

user161117

18:34

I'm trying to think how to best explain thsi

Dissenter

scroll up to section 7.6

bon

@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M Lol

1

Q: banned from chat?

Okay, this is weird and somewhat disconcerting - for the past few hours, I have not been able to access the Periodic Table (as in enter it, I can see it though). The last message to me from a room owner was to not ping him as he was "sleeping", which I could not have known, and I only pinged him...

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

@bon IKR ;)

Dissenter

So what do yall think lol

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

16 hours ago, by inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

@santiago I'm asleep. Don't ping me.

And he now thinks I banned him . . .

Dissenter

18:38

@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M you presented a good way of looking at the problem, I thank you

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

Bows

Dissenter

Cl- vs. Cl+

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

Which problem?

user161117

Sec, Dissenter I think you and your professor are talking about two different things

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

Huh.

Dissenter

18:39

@StevenGrigsby huh?

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

@StevenGrigsby Great.

Dissenter

@StevenGrigsby he outright says that Cl+ is more EP than Cl-

He may not realize it but that's what he's arguing if he says that Cl in perchloric acid is more EP than Cl in chloride ion

user161117

Hmm so if you look at a bond of two atoms

user161117

and one atom has more electron density near it than the other

user161117

is it more electronegative?

Dissenter

18:42

The one with more electron density existing around it is less EN

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

Hmm.

user161117

So in HBr, Hydrogen is more electronegative

user161117

according to you

user161117

since there is more electron density existing around Bromine, it is less EN

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

Seems legit. So?

user161117

18:44

Hahaha no that's not legit at all

Dissenter

Well that may be true because the EN of elements are different from the EN of elements in molecules and ions, and that's not the correct takeaway from my statement

user161117

Few things are more electronegative than Hydrogen

Dissenter

I should have clarified

user161117

Bromine is one of them

Dissenter

The one with more electron density existing around it is less EN than its usual, stated EN value

user161117

18:45

I am trying to clarify the subtle difference

user161117

between you and your professor

user161117

because you don't really understand what electronegativity is I think

Dissenter

No, he doesn't understand

This is the man I had to correct last semester wrt to negative ions and EN

user161117

I don't understand how my clear example

Dissenter

He said that a more negative ion would be more EN

user161117

18:46

is being refuted

Dissenter

Is S(2-) really going to be more EN than S?

user161117

you have clearly shown that H is more electronegative than Br in HBr

Dissenter

And your example was thought provoking but I clarified my statement

user161117

which isn't right

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

@Steve how do you define EN?

user161117

18:47

I don't understand

Dissenter

The one with more electron density existing around it is less EN than its usual, stated EN value

@StevenGrigsby that's my updated view of EN, which doesn't imply anything that you are saying

user161117

Yeah because your definition of electronegativity is wrong

Dissenter

@StevenGrigsby How do you define EN?

user161117

It's not defined for atoms

user161117

it's defined on a bond

Dissenter

18:48

I'm saying that Br in HBr is less EN than in `say Br in a molecule containing an F-Br bond

@StevenGrigsby are you sure?

EN can be defined for atoms; that's in the first sentence of WIki

Gold book definition says it's defined for atoms as well

goldbook.iupac.org/E01990.html

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

@Steve then the values in Wikipedia would've been for bonds not atoms.

user161117

I agree with these sources

Dissenter

Plus you can't have a bond without atoms

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

EN is relative, I get it. But that doesn't mean we're not defining it for an atom.

user161117

Yeah so when you compare two molecules

user161117

18:51

like your professor was doing

user161117

that's different than comparing two elements

Dissenter

Are you saying that the book I linked to was wrong?

user161117

See, Chlorine remained the same

Dissenter

The book used the example same example as my professor - from chloride ion to perchloric acid - and said the exact opposite - that EN increases for Cl from chloride ion to perchloric acid

Prof says EP increases for Cl from chloride ion to perchloric acid

@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M these are contradictory statements ;)

@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M Someone has to lose here, hopefully that's not me

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

@Dissenter We're relatively defining it. Gosh I hate terminology.

Dissenter

18:53

@inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M the definition to me is clear - it's just the power of an atom to attract electrons within a covalent framework.

The more partially positive Cl is, the better able it is to attract electrons

Martin - マーチン

someone woke me

Dissenter

Done

@Martin-マーチン will you please lend us a peice of your brain

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

@Martin-マーチン Go back to sleep.

Martin - マーチン

now i am awake...

what's up

I mean it's my own fault i forgot to silence the tab...

Dissenter

@Martin-マーチン this is a very interesting question

This is wrt to our favorite professor

:D

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

18:54

@Martin-マーチン >:D

Martin - マーチン

The electronnegativity thing...

Dissenter

Yes please I want your opinion Martin lol

Martin - マーチン

hmmm, i just glanced over it

Dissenter

@Martin-マーチン I'm right correct :D?

Martin - マーチン

Cl+ is waaaaaaaaay more electronegative than Cl

user161117

18:55

Yeah maybe you're right, at least at the end of the day I think we agree where the electrons are

Dissenter

LOL

Martin - マーチン

and Cl is waaaaay more electronegative than Cl-

Dissenter

@Martin-マーチン then why would my professor argue that Cl in HClO4 is more electropositive than Cl in Cl-?

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

@StevenGrigsby You never know where electrons are.

Martin - マーチン

that does not make any sense

user161117

18:56

lolol

Martin - マーチン

it is more positive, but it's affinity to electrons is higher

user161117

I think the professor is seeing it from the stance that

user161117

"If it was more electronegative we would see that by the bond actually having more electron density near it"

Dissenter

I told my professor that "I do not associate being positive with electropositivity and being negative with electronegativity" and he said

"Why not?!"

Martin - マーチン

OMG

because it is the oposite?

Dissenter

18:59

Sorry @Martin-マーチン please don't have nightmares

Martin - マーチン

Maybe...

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

@Dissenter Bah, just wait for two days so his RAM is cleared up and realizes he's dun goofed.

Martin - マーチン

perhaps

definitely

no no, that's okay...

Dissenter

Wait so @Martin-マーチン is that an acceptable excuse (Steven's justification)?

I sorta anticipated that point before I eeven brought it up

Martin - マーチン

I know we are responsible for your education ;) @Dissenter

Dissenter

19:00

:p

So @StevenGrigsby this is sort of a chicken and an egg problem?

Martin - マーチン

Not really. If anything, electronegativity is a measurement of a potential

Dissenter

OH there we go

There, that takes care of that argument - if the Cl were indeed more EN then why wouldn't it just attract more electrons toward itself

user161117

Yeah in my mind I am more or less thinking you can only measure electronegativity differences of a bond

Martin - マーチン

you can compare the electronegativities of chlorine in HCl and HClO3, then which one will be more likely to take more electrons

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

So we ran in circles and now back to square one. Congrats guys.

Martin - マーチン

19:03

@Steven that is something you cannot measure

Dissenter

@Martin-マーチン my professor argued that with increasing oxidation state, Cl becomes less EN

facepalm

Martin - マーチン

no it's the opposite

Dissenter

Well I guess it's up to me to get him to rescind that statement from his textbook

Oops

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

@Dis tell him this way:
1. Sir, define EN.
2. So you're saying the Cl in HCl is more likely to attract electrons.
3. Epic fail

Martin - マーチン

the more positive an element is the more electrons does it want

Dissenter

19:04

Yep

user161117

You can in terms of this

user161117

$user image$

Dissenter

See I hate to diss him like this but I really genuinely believe that his view of EN is screwed up

This was the man I had to correct last semester wrt to EN of negative ions

Martin - マーチン

define the terms please

user161117

what I'm saying is the difference is what you measure based on the ionization energies

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

19:05

Sir cough sir, I believe you're an idiot no sorry I mean imbecile.

user161117

dissociation energies I think

user161117

lol

Dissenter

Well I'll see him Monday and let you guys know how it goes

For now, more drinking for me

Martin - マーチン

haha... cheeers

Dissenter

And him

:P

Cheers Martin, thanks for letting us borrow your brain

Martin - マーチン

19:06

ya... no problem

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

Now zzz @Martin.

user161117

Wait are you telling me you don't know what this equation is Martin?

user161117

how can you say you know what electronegativity is if you don't know this equation

Martin - マーチン

Yes I am

Dissenter

We're qualitative chemists here :P

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

19:07

Pssssht.

user161117

Erm no wonder you guys are wrong haha

Dissenter

I am satisfied

With being correct, as usual :P

user161117

gj

Martin - マーチン

I think you are wrong

Dissenter

About what

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

19:09

I thought that equation was only good for Pauling.

Martin - マーチン

2 mins ago, by Steven Grigsby

Erm no wonder you guys are wrong haha

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

Grabs popcorn

Dissenter

Haha

Martin - マーチン

That equation assigns an arbitrary number to an element and ranks other elements according to it

Dissenter

I still taste my chemical samples and perform flame tests

That's how quality I am

*Qualitative

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

19:11

@Steve yeah I'm with @Martin. Unless we're writing a periodic table that equation is useless.

Martin - マーチン

@Dissenter en.wikipedia.org/wiki/…

You should find all necessary arguments to crush your prof there

Dissenter

@Martin-マーチン I'll let this marinate in my mind for the weekend and on Monday it's going to be a smackdown

No mercy!

Comeback match

Martin - マーチン

:D

Dissenter

Mayweather vs. Pacquaio

Martin - マーチン

Back to bed for me now....

and this time i'll silence that phone

And if you ping me while I'll sleep, I'll ban you @inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

2

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

19:17

@Martin

@MARTIN

Martin - マーチン

Not sleeping yet :P

Dissenter

LOL

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

Sleep tight.

@Martin

Dissenter

Sweet dreams :P

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

@Martin asleep yet?

Dissenter

19:18

Please don't have nightmares about hexamethylcyclotriene

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

@Martin

Dissenter

*hexamethylcyclohexatriene

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

@Martin

I'm testing the pings @Mart.

@Martin

It seems he's asleep.

I mean @Martin's asleep.

@Martin

(He'll strike when I'm sleep. O.o)

Martin - マーチン

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

@Martin-マーチン You look handsome.

@Martin

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

20:58

New profile pic.

@MartiN

bon

Oh you sexy cyclohexane ;)

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

ᕙ(⇀‸↼‶)ᕗ

Actually I'm only hot for boats. Are you a boat @Bon?

bon

No I'm but a humble square

inɒzɘmɒЯ.A.M

21:32

@Martin

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