The Periodic Table

LordStryker

14:02

\o @Hippalectryon

So... is it common for someone to want to hire you as a Post Doc and have you start working BEFORE you actually defend and obtain a PhD? Because that is what has just happened to me...

Literally, they want me to start working the day before my actual defense...

Ummmmm, really??

Mad Scientist

@LordStryker After submission and before defense is not unusual as far as I know. Depending on the amount of bureaucracy there can be a large time in between. One day before the defense doesn't make much sense, though.

LordStryker

@MadScientist Well my defense starts a day after classes resume at this institution I'm applying to. Given that the vacancy requires the teaching of gen chem... the employer suggested that I would have time to teach the class then get back here for my defense the following day.

I don't know man. Being stretched that thin around the time I defend doesn't make me feel secure.

But maybe I'm over recating.

Hippalectryon

14:20

Totally unrelated, but is anyone here good with computers ?

Mad Scientist

Teaching a class on the first day doesn't seem entirely right to me. I'd assume it takes a bit of preparation unless you taught exactly that course already

LordStryker

They offer slides and lesson plans

Day 1 is typically syllabus anyway.

But then, the day after my defense I'd have to be back teaching Day 2

which means, no defense party for me? (assuming I pass)

oh lord, assuming I failed???

what then!?

Dissenter

15:03

What's the greatest organic chemistry textbook, and while we're at that, what's the greatest analytical text?

LordStryker

15:15

@Dissenter 'Greatest'?

Dissenter

15:29

I.e. favorite

LordStryker

15:48

hm

Well seeing as how I've only used Carey, I'll go with that one being my favorite.

I did not enjoy my analytic textbook so... I suppose I don't have a favorite there.

Dissenter

What was your analytic book

LordStryker

Koog West Holler and Crouch - Fundamentals of Analytical Chemistry

Dissenter

Lol this is what one Amazon review had to say about Carey

"This book is truly a heavy load of crap. Not only I had to go to an orthopedist because of its weight..."

Ah the Skoog book

I think I prefer the Harris book

LordStryker

I prefer Ostlund and Szaebo. But thats quantum.

Dissenter

Quantum organic chemistry

One of my organic texts literally says it picks the best parts of VBT and combines it with MOT to rationalize what happens

LordStryker

15:55

*shudders

Dissenter

I guess you don't need that much quantum knowledge to know what's going on in orgo

LordStryker

Nah. Its all sticks and electron pushing.

Dissenter

Do you think one day QM will be successfully incorporated in introductory level texts

LordStryker

Of course I do.

I think there have been significant progress introducing it already into gen. chem. books.

Dissenter

Yes I forgot that resonance, for example, has its roots in QM

Greg E.

16:04

@LordStryker, that's true, but so far it's almost completely a qualitative treatment.

Certain exceptions, like maybe Oxtoby's textbook aside.

Dissenter

Will chemistry always be a qualitative science at the introductory level?

LordStryker

@GregE. Yes. But its very difficult to introduce it 'honestly' given the extreme level of depth it would require.

Greg E.

I think the more fundamental obstacle is probably mathematical illiteracy.

Dissenter

I remember being flashed the wave equation once in introductory chemistry

That was the extent of math in that course

2 seconds on a powerpoint slide

I also agree that math skills are sorely lacking. My math skills are similarly lacking

Greg E.

I just mean that it's impossible to transcend the handwavy qualitative QM coverage without getting into some moderately difficult math, and a lot of science and engineering majors are lacking a strong basis in it.

Dissenter

16:14

I think chemistry gets shafted because a lot of people who take chemistry aren't even engineering/science majors. They're "pre-med."

Attitude of a premed: fuck chemistry I just need it for the MCAT

MCAT chemistry: mainly qualitative organic chemistry and some pH calculations

Greg E.

Oh yeah, that's definitely true. I see that attitude constantly as a TA.

Dissenter

Sucks for chemistry

Greg E.

Yes, yes it does.

Dissenter

Haha

Physics isn't much better off either

Probably worse off I'd say

I've encountered 1 physics major

And a handful of chem majors/minors/doublemajors/biochem

And a ton of chemical engineers

Greg E.

Even though I'm doing compsci/chem double major, most of the people I know well seem to be doing either electrical or mechanical engineering.

Dissenter

16:19

These are definitely popular but chem E is HUGE at my school

I'm thinking it's because of a recent CNN Money report - chem E - most lucrative engineering major

;)

Greg E.

I know a couple pure math majors pretty well also. They both sorely resent having to take any science classes.

Dissenter

LOL

Chemistry is logic

Most of the time

One of my friends had a bad experience with a chem E; care to hear?

Greg E.

Sure.

Dissenter

He had taken a female out for yogurt

He paid for the yogurt

They returned to her dorm

She lived alone

They sat on the bed

He was contemplating something that most guys do

Then she mentioned out of the blue

Hey, you're a mech. E right?

You must have had classes with my boyfriend; he's a chem E

Fucking chem Es

God damn

Greg E.

Ouch.

Dissenter

16:22

There are so many chem Es around campus

One even got hit by a bus

Greg E.

I suppose that's a virtual statistical inevitability if they're really so numerous.

Dissenter

I agree

She was okay though

Good, because we need more chem Es

Also Greg E did you give any further thought to my prof's comments?

About the acid/base thing

Greg E.

I think it's generally valid for the majority of cases.

Dissenter

I was thinking that acid/base are fundamentally thermodynamic qualities, so that yeah, I guess if there is no acid/base large ext. reaction, then the compound would be thermodynamically stable

If not kinetically stable

Let me know if you think of an exception because I'm ready to bash his ego into the ground

Greg E.

Yeah, I think that's accurate in general, assuming other pathways for decomp. aren't available.

I can't think of any contradictory examples beyond ones similar to the magnesium ammonium phosphate hexahydrate case.

Dissenter

16:28

I love it when he claims each semester he knows more "general chemistry" than anyone else in the world

Okay I'll make sure to see what he has to say about that example

Greg E.

Sounds like such a humble guy.

Dissenter

Care to see a test of his?

Greg E.

Sure.

Dissenter

Hehe

Apparently he's had students who came back and told him that their qualifying exams were easier than his

Greg E.

Well, I guess that could be interpreted one of two ways: either he's genuinely rigorous (which is great), or his questions are just convoluted and absurd (which is obviously sub-optimal).

Dissenter

16:32

I'll let you decide which one it is :D

You know one time I asked him what he thought about H2SO4 as not being hypervalent, and he commented that it has to have "at least 4 S-O bonds."

Why 4

Why assume that the minimal bond order has to be 1; we can definitely have BOs of 0.5

That's besides the point let me know what you think about the final

Greg E.

Yeah, I'm going over it now. Mostly, this looks like a combination of pointless trivia and memorization testing, lots of ambiguous phrasing, and some questions that seem way too abstruse for a gen chem class.

Dissenter

Which questions are trivia?

Greg E.

19, for example.

Dissenter

Oh .. I never did figure that one out

I do remember covering it in class and the "text."

Something about charge density

And empty orbitals on the metal cation

I do think that we were supposed to figure that one out rather than memorize anything; plus, we didn't go over those exact complexes in class but parallel examples

Think I'm gonna make a Q on SE for that :D

Greg E.

That's probably a good idea.

Dissenter

16:43

Too bad there aren't too many inorganic chemists here

Greg E.

Yeah, I've gotta admit, organometallic is one of my weaker areas for sure.

Dissenter

Mine too

I still don't know why Ni(CO)4 is a gas

It would have helped if I didn't have a kidney infection last semester just around finals

But that's why I'm here :D TO learn more chemistry!! :D

:)

Maybe Martin will answer my question; he knows everything

Greg E.

I can't really make out some of the subscripts very well in the formulae in that question.

Can you type them out by chance? I think it's actually easier than I initially thought when I glanced at it.

Dissenter

0

Q: Carbonyl/Nitrosonium Complex Stability

Why is the nickel complex exhibiting the strongest pi-bonding? From what I understand, charge density plays a role. Also we need some empty orbitals on the metal cation, since we're looking at Lewis adducts.

inorganic-chemistry

Greg E.

17:06

@Dissenter, ok, I've gotta take off. Good luck with that question. I have an idea about it, but I'm nowhere near sure if it's correct.

Dissenter

Me too; but let me know what you think later

I'm sure your ideas are much closer to the truth than mine

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