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03:00 - 13:0013:00 - 00:00

13:00
recently we also had a case where some participated more because of the tutor than because of the programme… but even they did learn to program a lego mindstorms bot in C (even if not that deep) and went home happy (with the programme and the tutor… they have enough play breaks…)
I just wish we had had something like this when I was younger
that's really cool.
would’ve helped to prevent desocialising/going into “nerd” direction
yeah... this is a really unique model, kudos to whoever thought of it, and kudos also for making it work :P
heh... yeah..... ;_;
yeah, our pedagogic team is great
the one with the idea is also the one currently leading, both overall, pedagogic and tech
uhhuh
13:01
I’m co-lead, tech and infrastructure (i.e. scripts) mostly
:D cool
I’m also a backup sysadmin, but we’ve had a then-10-year-old pass LPI Essentials certificatioin, and he’s now (at 11) our main sysadmin
**small pauses** **cracks up**
okay I'm really curious now. One of my friends (over in Argentina... I'm in Australia lol) is kinda young, and he was actually interested in learning pygame. I think this kind of environment would be perfect for him... do you ever do stuff over the 'Net?
13:02
yeah, he even tests (after upgrades and, if needed, reboots) whether the services are still running
that’s something we tend to… be lazy about
hm, main goal is community building, maths/science/comp.sci education, and free software/oss and privacy stuff, so, in theory
right.
we’ve got a communication platform set up (kids get mail and jabber there)
mhm
but for first contact, face to face is easier
I totally agree with that, yeah
I was just curious because this is the first time I've really ever heard of an environment where young kids are encouraged to grow and learn, and realize what they're capable of
13:04
we did have the occasional delegation in other countries, and the kids did the English thing well (I couldn’t really speak English until way past school)
mh
most of our tutors already know the stuff and bring it with them (sometimes they even know stuff we don’t, e.g. we had someone teaching a Blender workshop)
(incidentally, I can't tell it's your 3rd language - very impressed)
ooh, blender... nice
some learn from each other and then swap workshops and stuff
mh… I learned languages like, BASIC, ASM, Latin, Pascal, English, C ;)
lol :D
but my school English sucked
I see
13:06
I got most from reading manpages and IRC when I was 18 and had internet and linux/BSD
I see, very nice
I got stuck on BASIC for the longest time, and still need to learn ASM. C is sortakinda there but I haven't done much with it
there’s a really good chance some of us will be at the next DebConf in, IIRC, South Africa
so if you happen to be there anyway
I wish I could go D:
asdfsdfsdfasd
mh
I won’t, I don’t fly, but…
ah. right.
I guess the bit of info I'm most curious about now, then, is... how do you engage young kids?
13:08
we’re being asked to expand into all directions and even 'fork off' the idea into associations in other countries, so we’re a bit stretched thin wrt. resources, but we’re trying to at least get most of the website translated into English soonish
we scrape eMail and postal addresses of all schools from the official servers, then spam them ;)
by now, word of mouth too (apparently we rock)
initially, much smaller: kids’ programme at FrOSCon (some local OSS conference), later also at other conferences in .de
I can definitely understand the idea of forking, this is awesome. I'll certainly keep an occasional eye on the website and check back... and the email idea FTW. :P
if someone who attends is promising, they’re invited to check out becoming a tutor and/or a society member
cool
also, some contact us, asking to join
we've got about two thirds under-18s in the society, so in the end they decide who's elected to lead…
that led to some funny situations at the last full member meeting
ooh lol
13:11
but that's also part of the goal
also, stuff like using email communication (and jabber and mumble) is training them well for later job life
our kids write better git commit messages than my coworkers
I never said that officially ;)
*mumbles something about the last message possibly not coming through properly*
:P
:D
the parents are the hard part… they have to learn things like, their kids’ mail is private (though the parents are, of course, allowed to decide with whom they communicate)
some are too overbearing
mmmm. yeah... :/
some are from lower “class” though, so our pedagogic team occasionally has to help out with debugging the family (with mostly success, so far)
we actively promote this stuff even for low-income families, with what we get from sponsors
so far not doing a net loss
ahaha debugging the family... that's good to hear. and, also great to hear you're trying to get this stuff to low-income families, that's doubly awesome too (can definitely relate to that)
13:15
though it’s very… intensive, occasionally
yeah
try being a part of a roughly 4-adult 2-kid organisation team keeping 75+ kids in sight from friday noon till sunday evening, complete with train drives between location and hostel
oh and I’m usually the one on “car service”
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
since I’m not in the pedagogic team (the other one who can drive is)
how do you even fit in the rest of the things in your stackoverflow description
13:16
eh, and a dayjob!
I used to be able to do more during apprenticeship and university time
I must have your magic formula for making days longer
yeah.
now I can occasionally do stuff during work (we’re somewhat an OSS company, and my employer gives rooms to that society so I have short ways when switching hats)
sometimes in the evening when I’m not too beat
weekends too of course, but mostly long nights (and regrets in the morning)
oh, that's awesome
ah :/ yeah
when you hit 30 it gets harder, physically, but…
I still like doing it
got myself a balance (going outside for geocaching… lots of nature, some physical activity, a little tech, and some fun), that's important
ofc that reduces hacking time even more, but restores balance
that, and massages against muscle tension
(which I ought to have one of RSN)
behold, the DataHand keyboard
WANT.
apparently it reduces RSI
13:20
uaah. but if it works for you…
I don't have one, but it looks absolutely awesome
you have virtually nil finger movement using it
I nagged my boss until he got me one of those
oh, cool!
I type US (plus Meta and funny Unicode chars) layout on physical DE layout though (hate the US physical layout’s Return key)
wow... that's... actually German layout
13:22
but… AltGr for []{}\| no thanks ;)
yeah, but I just ignore that :D
oh :D
I can have my funny chars äöü with Meta key, too
:D
and I need []{}\| much more often than those ☻
(though can’t do without them in business life, so I stuck with DE layout until I had custom keyboard layout for all OSes I have to deal with – MS released the Keyboard Layout Creator about a decade ago)
I see
I've been meaning to learn how to do the SHIFT+CTRL+U unicode thing for a while
but that only works in recent apps
and certainly not xterm
13:26
yeah
in xterm I have screen
oh yeah.
but those keybindings are interesting
bind u digraph 'U+'
then ^A u 2 0 a c
that’s for the stuff I didn’t bind directly
oh cool...
...€!
ahaha
*briefly debates making the root password "⚡҉☻"*
*decides against it*
13:28
@i336_ link pls
link for what?
for the thing it was a reply to: the DataHand
I assumed you had it handy, since you posted the picture
(pun on handy not intended)
bit surprised that not all examples are expanded by default, only one of them (the first?)
@i336_ nah, you’ll need to be able to log in via serial console, from a foreign device, etc. too
13:30
I... actually just googled "datahand keyboard" and grabbed that image, it linked to research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/bibuxton/… which is an image collection
if that's what you mean
so I advice against using anything that's not alphanumeric or contains y or z
@mirabilos: yeah... true... :>
or contains y or z?
ooooooooh gooood point
if you have contact with the french it's worse
There's a button for expanding all examples, if you click it once, they will always be expanded by default, I think
TIL I need to treat keyboard layouts like historical UNIX
thanks so much for that
13:31
no numbers either, no q and a (they swap it), and… oh well, french layout is a violation of human rights
@JonasCz ah ok
hence why M$ had the bitlocker key thingy bound to F1-F10 IIRC?
(I think it was for bitlocker... or something related... biometric backup password... or something?)
mh drafts and reviews are still borked though
@i336_ sensible in an MS environment (“M$” is so 1990s GNU kiddies…), but not on Unix (those F-keys don’t even exist)
the VT100 supports function keys...
@i336_ yes, it has two different ways they’re converted to ESC sequences…
OH, right... yeah of course...
13:35
nothing normed like CHR$(0)+"L"
ooh, hello, memories
wow that's an old one
lol
not even scancodes are normed after X.org decided to break them all between IIRC lenny and squeeze
wat
@i336_ well I keep my GW-BASIC manual handy (and have gwbasic as alternative nick on IRC), but recently someone ported mksh to OS/2 so I had to add those keybindings to edit.c
o.o
oh, wow, nice :D
I have a small pile of old BASIC versions... somewhere
13:37
@i336_ yeah do a diff between the 'gnu' (old X.org) and 'grml' (new X.org) branches on mirbsd.org/cvs.cgi/contrib/samples/dot.Xmodmap
....ohh THAT's what grml is
grml is a live linux from austria, debian-based (and really nice people)
1) oh okay 2) AAAAAAaaaaaaa
they were who discovered this problem first, as they got the .Xmodmap magic from me but tracked Debian testing (while I was still on BSD at home, ancient Kubuntu at work – back then, forced, now I run Debian sid/x32 at work by myself)
(#1 refers to grml. #2 refers to... yeah.)
I see
13:40
look at how e.g. the Cur↑ key moved from scancode 0x62 to 0x6F
:( yeah
the old numbers are close to PC/AT scancodes, the new ones close to USB keyboard ones, but neither are identical…
why. why did they do this
what was the point
lol
nobody knows
lol
13:42
Mika from Grml suggested it’s because the X.org devs weren’t allowed to destroy their toy block towers they built as kids
hahahahaa
that was when X.org just separated from XF86 in anger
hmmm.
hmm. I think I'm using a different terminfo file on here. I'm SURE this worked on Slackware...
I was trying the VT102 emulator (REAL emulator - take a look at the end of the file) from cvs.schmorp.de/vt102 and trying to get it to recognize the Fn keys in htop
...it wasn't.
but I think it did on Slackware
I have a DEC VT220 at home, real hardware
D:
13:46
I can switch the F keys in the menu
I use neither setting; in mc (only console program I use that really uses them) I just use e.g. Esc+9 instead of F9
on the BSD text console, half of the F keys are shifted by one, but the other half are fine
it’s just a bad joke
at least they got Backspace and Del right after decades
(Del is CSI 3 ~, Backspace is ^? and Shift-Backspace is ^H)
oooh woow.
I really don't understand how everything could end up so broken like it is
OpenBSD docs say they used to switch BS/Del between ^H/^? and ^?/^[[3~ every two releases until they settled, but luckily, that was before I started using it
the current way is beneficial
e.g. while a program is running and you already type the next command for the shell
would you guys like to get a room, perhaps?
oh, sorry
@DanHulme started one
cool
I am just worried that when the devs get online, they won't see your messages from earlier about stuff not working
13:50
very good point
because they went off the top of the window about an hour ago
yeah, sorry for not thinking of it before
and actual times are in the room transcript
ah, great
here looks like a reasonable place to start: chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/29006240#29006240 - although there's a bit of noise in there, apologies
after approx 1 1/2 pages this channel went slightly "mods are asleep, discuss life and the meaning of everything!" until, umm, about 3 minutes ago
13:57
@i336_ FYI, it works for me.
interesting.
in case it's useful
well, I'm off for the time being, I might check back in in future... and proper use of the room thing is now duly noted :P
14:15
@i336_ @mirabilos i see the exceptions in the logs - looking into it now
I am trying to find the best place to request a topic or start some new documentation.
I had a C# WPF related problem and wanted to find out if that would be better posted in C#, .NET or whether a new group for WPF should be made.
 
4 hours later…
18:27
@i336_ What window manager / desktop environment is that ? I'm curious.
18:49
I've written an answer today and I'm not sure if it would fit the documentation. The mechanics of with slicing are pretty good documented for simple cases but almost non-existant for more complex operations (or I couldn't find them). Would that make a good topic aka complex-customized-slicing or is that probably to deep for Documentation?
 
3 hours later…
21:31
There's an "Oups"-Page if I click on "View Edit" in docs-beta.stackexchange.com/documentation/…
at least for the edit of Anil and Kurtis Beavers.
22:31
Hi everyone, I don't think I understand how to subscribe to a topic.
22:43
what do you mean by subscribe to a topic?
22:55
@MSeifert I assume he means the wants to be able to follow a topic to get notifications of changes and things like that.
I've been unable to propose a new tag. Has anyone else experienced that? I click the button to propose one, type the name in the dialog box, press enter, then nothing happens.
@AlexA. Check this out if it applies: docs-beta.stackexchange.com/questions/893/…
@AlexA. I don't know what he meant and before guessing what is meant I ask for clarification.
@MSeifert Ah yeah, that's what I was looking for. Thanks! I guess I need to ask a question and propose the tag afterward.
Or wait until public beta, you need 3 people to create a documentation tag ...
It seems like docs-beta.stackexchange.com/questions/816/… is now status-completed. Nice work!
23:20
Hi all, thanks for the invite. Can anyone help me to find a clear explanation of the 'purpose' of the Documentation stack exchange? I'm finding it a little hard to create topics and add information as I feel I'm duplicating documentation elsewhere on the web.
don't duplicate: improve and if you can't don't document it here. At least that's how I manage it. But it's up to us what comes into the documentation. So feel free to put in what you like. Everything needs to be approved and can be deleted later, so in the long term only the useful information stays (hopefully).
Great, thanks @MSeifert @KurtisBeavers. There are still a lot of posts, especially in the Ruby section, that outline existing documentation (which you could consider duplicates, in a sense). For example 'Hello World' examples printing to stdout, which you can find on many other sites around the web.
Anyway i'll have a play ;) thanks
23:38
hi hi - just getting the invite now, and trying to get oriented to where things are located.
Welcome to Docs Beta. Check out the tour and help center. Have fun, and post bugs on the main site please and thank you.
5
@AdamLear I've never seen this kind of star. Can anyone do that or is that something reserved?
It's a pin. Mods can do it. (As a side benefit, the message from drop down the list in the sidebar as new messages are starred.)
Mods/room owners, IIRC
I always forget how permissions work in chat and having dev access doesn't help :P
23:55
ok - thanks :)
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